OK - Now DC wants to build a 400 HP Hemi???

[Mike Ellis]

Having had the opportunity to see stock 426 Hemi cars (including one legendary Roadrunner junker that a guy at our school had) versus 440 6-pack cars, all I can say is if the 440 won a race between them the driver of the Hemi must have been trying to hold his 8-track tape in juuuusst right so it would play and not concentrating on driving. The Hemi cars spanked just about everything in the street races in our area, in fact the only time I recall seeing a Hemi car lose on the street it was by a fellow who had a Challenger with 340 6-pack and a LOT of massaging. That one had people talking for a long time.



Of course, we have to remember that we tend to look at the Muscle Cars through a set of rose-colored glasses. Many of the little ricers right off the lot today would spank a significant number of muscle cars "back in the day".



I just happen to have a couple of magazines right here in front of me, that collect a bunch of old muscle car tests together. Here are a few numbers to whet the appetite from Hot Rod magazine. All numbers are as published, keep in mind though that many of these cars were running on skinny tires most of us wouldn't put on a utility trailer today. Some of the cars were obviously underrated on the power numbers too, compare for example the Vette L-88 to the Vette Tripower setup... .



1967 Camaro SS, 350/4 spd, 3. 55:1 diff, 295 hp / 380 tq

-------- 14. 85 @ 95. 65 mph



1969 Camaro Z28 Coupe, 302/4 spd, 3. 73:1 diff, 290 hp / 290 tq

-------- 14. 34 @ 101. 35



1971 Camaro SS396, 396/4 spd, 3. 42:1 diff, 300 hp / 400 tq

-------- 14. 827 @ 96. 309



1967 Corvette Convertible, 427 TriPower/4 spd, 3. 55:1 diff, 435 hp / 460 tq

-------- 13. 80 @108



1969 Corvette Convertible, L-88 427/auto, 3. 36:1 diff (!), 430 hp / 450 tq

-------- 13. 56 @ 110



1966 Chevelle SS396, 396/4 spd, 3. 73:1 diff, 360 hp / ?? tq

-------- 15. 70 @ 92



1970 (71?) Chevelle SS454, LS6 454/4 spd, 4. 11:1 diff, 450 hp / 500 tq

-------- 13. 44 @ 108



1968 El Camino SS396, 396/auto, 3. 31:1 diff, 350 hp / 415 tq

-------- 14. 49 @ 98



1967 Firebird Convertible, 400/auto, 3. 08:1 diff, 325 hp / 410 tq

-------- 15. 4 @ 92 mph



1970 Firebird Formula 400, 400/auto, 3. 31:1 diff, 330 hp / 430 tq

-------- 15. 0 @ 93 mph



1970 Firebird Trans-Am Ram Air, 400/4spd, 3. 90:1 diff, 345 hp / 430 tq

-------- 13. 9 @ 102 mph



1969 GTO Judge, 400/4 spd, 3. 90:1 diff, 366 hp / 445 tq

-------- 14. 41 @ 99 mph



1968 Hurst-Olds, 455/auto, 3. 91:1 diff, 390 hp / 500 tq

-------- 13. 90 @ 103 mph



1969 Hurst-Olds, 455/auto, 3. 42:1 diff, 380 hp / 500 tq

-------- 14. 21 @ 99 mph



1970 Olds 442 W30, 455/auto, 3. 91:1 diff, 370 hp / 500 tq

-------- 13. 98 @ 100 mph



1970 Olds 442 W31, 350/auto, 3. 91:1 diff, 325 hp / 360 tq

-------- 14. 62 @ 96 mph



1970 Buick GS 455 Stage 1, 455/auto, 3. 64:1 diff, 360 hp / 510 tq

-------- 14. 40 @ 96 mph



1968 Mustang Cobra Jet 428, 428/4 spd, 3. 89:1 diff, 335 hp / 440 tq

-------- 13. 90 @ 104 mph



1967 Mustang Fastback, 390/auto, 3. 25:1 diff, 335 hp / 427 tq

-------- 15. 31 @ 93 mph



1968 Mustang Shelby GT500-KR, 428/4 spd, 3. 50:1 diff, 335 hp / 440 tq

-------- 14. 01 @ 102 mph



1969 Mustang Mach 1, 351/auto, 3. 25:1 diff, 290 hp / 385 tq

-------- 15. 46 stock, opening hood scoop/bumping timing gave 15. 13 @ 93 mph



1968 Ranchero GT 390, 390/auto, 3. 00:1 diff, 335 hp / 427 tq

-------- 15. 60 @ 92 mph



1967 Dodge Coronet R/T, 440/auto, 3. 23:1 diff, 375 hp / 480 tq

-------- 14. 91 @ 93 mph



1970 Dodge Challenger R/T coupe, 440/auto, 3. 55:1 diff, 375 hp / 480 tq

-------- 14. 54 @ 98 mph

 

[Mike Ellis]

And some more:



1968 Dodge Dart GTS 340, 340/auto, 3. 55:1 diff, 275 hp / 340 tq

-------- 14. 50 @ 95 mph



1968 Plymouth Road Runner, 383/4-spd, 3. 55:1 diff, 335 hp / 425 tq

-------- 14. 74 @ 98 mph



1967 Plymouth Barracuda, 383/auto, 3. 23:1 diff, 280 hp / 425 tq

-------- 15. 15 @ 92 mph



1971 Plymouth Barracuda, 340/4-spd, 3. 55:1 diff, 275 hp / 340 tq

-------- 14. 41 @ 99 mph (14. 18 @ 100 without air filter)



1968 AMC AMX, 390/auto, 3. 15:1 diff, 315 hp / 425 tq

-------- 14. 91 @ 94 mph



1968 AMC AMX, 390/4-spd, 3. 54:1 diff, 315 hp / 425 tq

-------- 14. 5 @ 98 mph (14. 06 with slicks)



Notice that this book didn't have any tests of the Hemi cars, or of the ZL-1 Camaros, Ford 429s, Shelby AC/Cobra, etc - many of which could handily thump the cars listed above. There were a few muscle cars that could hit 12 second quarter times in stock trim, and 11's were possible with good tires and tweaks. The majority of the "fast" 60's cars were in the 14's. Quite a few modern cars can meet or beat their numbers.



Which cars above were really memorable to you guys? I liked the big block cars, Mustangs and Camaros, but I guess my pick would be the small block Mopars - agile, fun to drive, reasonably roomy, plenty quick... . hmmm, maybe a Challenger with 340 six-pack, pistol-grip shifter

 

[DPelletier]

Mike,

Your right about lots of modern cars being able to beat some of the old musclecars. I do think the reason for that (in a lot of cases) is simply superior rubber. Check out the tires on a new Mustang GT or '02 Camaro SS compared to a '67 Coronet, for example. Many cars were substantially underrated as you've mentioned. The L-88 was a corporate "secret" and the 430hp rating was designed to keep the car out of the hands of the uninformed. It was also common to install exhaust manifolds that couldn't flow the engine's requirements, recognizing the fact that anyone drag racing the car would install headers anyway.

The L-88 was factory rated at 430 hp, actually put out approximately 480hp in stock trim and with open headers was good for 560hp! I've heard of a factory '69 vette L-88 doing the 1/4 in 11. 14 with headers and slicks.

My 1970 W-30 was rated at 370hp, but put out 440hp, it also put out more torque than any other musclecar engine (yes, even the 455 Buick Stage I rated at 510 ft lbs) and qualified estimates put the torque at 600 ft lbs. This makes sense when comparing the lower redline of the W-30 with say the LS-6. With headers and sticky street tires, mine ran in the 12's.

Bottom line, there are lots of new cars that can run (or outrun, in some cases), the 350hp 400 GTO's; 335 hp 383 cars and 325hp 396's. The premier musclecars (or supercars) remain unsurpassed as far as power output except for the top dollar exotic stuff. These cars were the L-88, 426 Hemi, LS-6, 455 W-30, 455 Stage I, RAIV Pontiacs, 440-6pak, 428 SCJ, Boss 429, etc.



Cheers,

Dave (musclecar enthusiast and former member of the Oldsmobile Club of America)

 

[mcoleman]

There were also lists out like the 50 fastest musclecar list that show the Buick in at a 13. 38 in the 1/4 which is much more believable for someone that has actually owned one of these cars. With the addition of an intake and headers through full exhaust and the rest of the engine being completely stock I ran 12. 80s with our 3900 pound Buick Stage 1 GS with a/c. We tuned up our totally stock 71 350 GS Buick and ran high 14. 80s to 15. 0s with no aftermarket parts on the car at all. Just radial tires. The magazines of the day claimed low 16s on the Buick 350 GS cars. But I also agree that the newer cars are way more powerful per cubic inch than the older stuff. My Wifes 1999 3700 pound Supercharged V6 Buick Regal runs in the 13. 80s with just a muffler and blower pulley change. It's not only heavier than alot of the Camaros and Mustangs of the day but also quicker. Our 87 Buick T-Type runs in the low 11s and has never had a valve cover off the engine. And also weighs in the 3600 pound range. Numerous guys are running in the 12s with the late model F-bodies that will outweight their 67-69 counter parts by 200-300 pounds. But I just can't think of an F-body as being as cool as our older A-body cars.

 

[SGibson]

today's cars and engines have big advantages over the old stuff, full roller valvetrains,fuel inj. ,computer designed everything,12in. rubber,low cd. ,5&6 spds. , If and when you apply these to the older stuff that breathed, 392,426,rect. port bbc, it's a foregone conclusion that the advantage comes back to the bigger engines,I am very impressed w/numbers posted by the new chev. V-8,maybe the new hemi will be the same in making big gains from small mods.