Competition Omg!!!!! Twins Rock!!!!!!!!!!

[Mark_Kendrick]

Thanks for the support. I hope they pass the test of time.



Later,

Mark

 

[Briar Hopper]

What? Nobody wants to say it? Okay, I will. The reason nobody talks about what specific turbos, pipe work and engine work are associated with twin & triple turbo systems, is they have a small fortune invested in research and development, and wish to recover some, if not all, of that $$$$ by selling the systems to the public.

It's not simply a matter of clapping two turbos on there. That will work, yes, in a rough way. But even the pipework/plumbing can be critical, there are some crucial details, such as air flow patterns and volume, that can rob or add HP.

I'd rather buy a tried and true system matched to my truck and the job it has to do, out of the more than 40 possible combinations that Enterprise Engine has(and get the engine work done right, or do it myself under their direction), or one of HVAC's systems, matched to the 24 valve, thanks to HIS research & development.

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

Briar,

I don't know if that was supposed to be a dig or what????



But here's why... After having done it I, if I were to be faced with that amout of headache again I probably would have bought a set of twins from somebody. The problem is who?



Everyone you talk to has the same story... .



me: tell me about your twins.

them: they're best thing since sliced bread.

me: why should I buy yours?

them: because ours are better!!

me: what makes them better?

them: they make more power, boost etc...

me: How?

them: I can't tell you. Just buy them.



The reason I never bought them is no one would give me enough information to decide if their system was worth it to me to plug down the money for a set of twins. No flow specs, no offers to call customers, no relevant dyno numbers.



No one had ever put them on an ETH or if they had they wouldn't admit it. very few people have put twins on 24Vs.



So what do you do??



I refused to drop 4k on a product no one would tell me anything about. Now everyone knows exactly what I did and how it has turned out. If they want some so be it. if not, I don't care. One thing is for sure. there's no VooDoo majic in the twins... not to say that there are not lots of better combinations than mine.



I would like to get enough interest to support some R&D and maybe sell a couple because I enjoyed the HARD WORK. 99. 9% of the population either lacks the skills, equipment, or desire or all three to pull it off. For those few that can, my hat is off to you and good luck. for everyone else, now you know the headache and expense and can make an informed decision on your own.



One thing to add. . in defense of the 'vendors' almost every combination of turbos is a completely different set of tubes. This is a major PITA. They look the same but the measurements are oh-so close though



FWIW,

Mark

 

[HoleshotHolset]

I agree with Mark.



When I buy something I want to know all about it BEFORE I lay down the cake.



I also understand the vendors point of view... . they don't want to disclose any information that they've worked so hard to get... just to let some other jerk reap the benefits.



It's just one of those things... . you can't make everyone happy.



The bottom line is that twins are the s__t. However you get 'em is up to you.



I praise Mark for being so open about his setup, though... something we don't see very often.



As for the electronic wastegate... it can be done... but it's not worth the $700+ for a controller that doesn't do much.



Get an external WG and put a needle valve in the cab... . that's all you need.



Matt

 

[Cousin Billy]

TOUCHY SUBJECT

Briar, Mark and Matt,



It might sound wishy-washy on my part, but I completly agree with ALL of you guys. The R&D needed to develop a great system is no doubt a major pain and very expensive to boot.



Twins are not a one size fits all, by a long shot. Anybody who has grease under their nails certainly should know this and has to appreciate the time spent by the folks who sell them.



I can also understand why the vendors want/need to recover their investments. I'm sure they did'nt develop the ultimate set-ups on the first try.



I'll be the first to admit that I'm one of the world's guiltiest persons when it comes to doing something myself by trying to duplicate what someone else has done and proven to work.



My problem (one of many) is, I'm the type who has a need to know what I'm buying and how and why it works the way it does. If thats a bad thing, so be it . It's my truck and my $$$.



I have tremendous respect for the people who develop products for our trucks not only for their knowledge, but the time they invest on R&D knowing they may never make a buck on it.



If a person tries his own ideas or even copies another's. Even IF the results are good, could the results be even better if you could afford to keep experimenting? Do doubt about it, thats where the purchase of a proven system is the best choice. But, there is the glitch of not really knowing what it is exactly you've bought. Even though it works perfectly.



Just my 2 cents worth (and I'll probably get change)



Cousin Billy

 

[Briar Hopper]

If that's how you see it, Mark. If that's your approach to everything, then why did you not question whoever you bought your injectors from? Most of us have bought our injectors on good faith, trusting Diesel Dynamics, BullyDog, Enterprise Engine, (and assorted technology pirates )out there, that the injectors would work as advertised. Did you ask about hole size, and spray patterns? Did you ask who makes them, and how?

The two biggest vendors of twin systems, Nowel Thomas of Performance Diesel, and Dave Mitchell of Enterprise Engine, are two of the most honest, knowledgeable, and best-loved vendors in our diesel world. If you can't take their word for it, then I don't know what to tell you.

If Dave tells me it works, I don't find it necessary to ask him how he knows, or why it does what it does. He'll tell me if he wants me to know. "How much" and "when" are all he ever hears out of me, anyway, LOL !

 

[cmonroe]

Maybe I'm different but yea when I am looking for injectors I want to know how many holes, what angle for the pattern, how large are the holes, how much are the nozzles extrude honed, are the nozzles new or re-crimped? I think for the hard core guys that understand these thing these are very valid questions. But back on the subject at hand. Briar, Mark is not copying someone else's setup. He is going to be trying several different housing and pipe diameters and setting several different waste gate settings and for all we know he may also try different primary turbos. I have been talking to Mark about this and several other different twin setups for at least six months now. The way I see it he has not said anything bad about anyones twins setup. He has also stressed that this is not easy and very few people will be able to fabricate a decent set of twins. As I know Mark he is just Playing with his truck again, and asking all the what if questions. By the way Mark you need or must O-ring before going any further. I'm not coming to Texas to help change another head gasket I'm glad people like Mark blow their trucks up and share the information with me so I don't have to blow mine up!! Just joking but I see no wrong in the way Mark is going about this.

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

I had a set of Mitchell injectors that ATS got for me and they SUCKED!!!!... and they were 3 weeks late delivering them. I changed to the Quadzilla injectors and took 4 tenths off my 60ft time!!!! I even got to try them BEFORE I paid for them. I have learned a lot about these trucks in the past year and I don't take much of anything on faith.



I like Nowell. I talk to him daily, but we still have differences in opinion. I like his setup. it just wasn't what I wanted and he was not forthcoming with information that I felt was necessary. This is not a dig on Nowell. He is rightfully protecting his investment. I just don't agree with him on certain things.



I think for myself. If a vendor is not willing to educate me on the product I'm not willing to finance his endeavors. I'm not going to plug down 4k to evaluate the logic behind a design. Especially when I have the resources and the desire to accomplish the task on my own. I now know many of the 'gotchas' and will gladly share them.



MY openness has generated a lot of interest in 'my' twins.



FWIW I didn't copy anybody's setup. I asked around about properly sized primaries to fit an HX35. I told them up from what I was planning. The only folks willing to tell me much of anything were the ATS transmission crew. You'll notice my twins are nothing like theirs. I offered to buy the turbos from other vendors in exchange for information. I had no takers.

To date my setup is the only one I have seen with a wastegate between the secondary and the manifold and the only wastegate I've seen that has the 'waste' exhaust re-enter the system before the primary turbo's exhaust inlet. It's no secret. . it just made sense to do it that way.



Later,

Mark

 

[Diesel Freak]

Mark, what is your drive pressure at?

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

lower than stock. I'm sure.



I dunno yet. the truck's in the shop getting new ball joints.

 

[Briar Hopper]

Read my words again. Nowhere did I say anything about Kendrick copying anything. The thought didn't even cross my mind. Not sure where you came up with that, cmonroe?

"The only folks willing to tell me anything were the ATS transmission crew".

"I had a set of Mitchell injectors that ATS got for me, and they sucked ! "

As far as I know, ATS isn't selling Mitchell injectors. Something like that, I'd prefer to buy straight from Enterprise Engine. That way, I know what I'm getting. I know for a fact nothing from Enterprise Engine ever "sucks"... . There's enough of us out here in the midwest using Mitchell products, and they are as good, or better, than advertised.

"I have learned a lot about these trucks in the past year"

Only a year?

 

[KatDiesel]

Originally posted by Mark_Kendrick

lower than stock. I'm sure.

I dunno yet. the truck's in the shop getting new ball joints.

Did you ever check it stock? Or with the B1 Kwikspool?



You might be surprised what its at now.

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

Actually I said... .



The only folks willing to tell me MUCH of anything were the ATS transmission crew.



Yes they were Mitchell injectors and I was testing them for ATS. No, ATS doesn't sell their injectors. They were looking for injector vendors and decided against the Mitchell injectors.



My point about the injectors is that Enterprise Engine and Dave Mitchell make some very good products but they are not always the best. You can't just buy on faith. I wanted the best set of twins. I probably still don't have them. what I have I am very happy with. I learned a lot. they perform VERY well. I know how they work and why they work.



What I do have is a set of twins that is made from a stock HX3512 that is very fast and makes a manageble and sufficient amount of boost ~70psi. I may get more but right now the smoke from my showerheads is gone around 50psi. I knocked 2 tenths off my 1/8 mi time with nothing but a turbo change. . I had a KSB-1 before, arguably one of the best singles around.



Sorry if I offended any Mitchell followers. To each his own.



Later,

Mark

 

[Briar Hopper]

Mitchell "follower" I may or may not be, but having a foot in the door at Enterprise as I do, gives me a glimpse of what they know and how they do things. They stay booked 3 months ahead, sometimes more, and it's not from TDR members. You don't get that kind of business(repeat customers, word-of-mouth referrals, etc. ) by offering less than the best. They've been at it a long time. Not so for ATS, in the diesel performance field.

You didn't "offend" this Mitchell "follower".

I merely found it amusing that it seemed you would so easily dismiss the experience & expertise of others who have been at this for more than a year.

I did find it to be annoying that you so loudly trumpeted several trade secrets on this thread. I'm probably the only one here who would say so, though.

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

Just because they've been doing it longer doen't mean they do it better. Dr. Performance still has a booming business out of his shop even though he is known to be less than the best



Don't mistake that as comparing EE and Dave with the Doc that would be truely laughable



When I call someone and tell them I want to use a 35/12 and an HT3B with an external wastegate they have to tell me why it won't work not just tell me it won't. The EE fellas didn't tell me anything much less why. Their STD answer was 'Just buy ours!" Like I said, not my way of doing things.



These trade secrets are mine to give. No one gave me any real design pointers except for which turbo is about the right size. Then Don Ramer harped on me about drains and crank case pressures and airfilters. . he was right.



I sourced my own drain parts, oil lines, pipe fittings, hoses, clamps, turbos, labor... etc. Then I had to figur out how to fit it together and make it work.



The only guy that could possible have a gripe is Jason Waldon from Quadzilla performance. His welding and fabrication skills were paramount and second to none.



Later,

Mark

 

[Greg Boardman-RIP]

Mark,

I just wanted you to know that some of us are sitting back silently enjoying this thread. I share alot of your feelings about doing things yourself. Keep up the good job, let us know how your turbo's hold up, and most of all have fun... ..... Greg

 

[CUMINNTSTRKN]

Originally posted by Mark_Kendrick

Actually I said... .



The only folks willing to tell me MUCH of anything were the ATS transmission crew.



Later,

Mark

mark



when i was at ats last year they had a set of mitchell's twins sitting on a motor on the floor. so it was ats that told you what turbo's ee was using? that system is now on kevin goode's truck and it works great. you really should measure your back pressure it might scare you!!!

as far as mithell injectors sucking you didn't have close to enough air to burn the fuel that they put out. i made 560 at may madness with a set of mitchell injectors and their twins. now i have made more power sense then but that's pretty good on #2. i know you probobaly have twice the smoke now than you did with theirs, i'm just telling they do make good power. i believe i was 3rd in the #2 hp war at mm, and i beat some of your friends when they were running everything. this just shows that most of this stuff has to be tuned or bought as a package to get the full results.



to each there own, just remember the more bridges you burn the harder this all gets. there is a wealth of knowledge out there. but first you must gain there trust.



jim

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

I'm not sure I should justify this with a response...but...

I think you'll find that the top turbo in Kevin's truck is a 40 not a 35 and I never asked them "what would the mitchell's use?" I asked . . "What is a good 1300-1500cfm turbo for a set of twins?" the response was: "try an HT3B. they're cheap, readily available and BIG. "



I could care less what you made with mitchell's injectors. I don't want or need them.



I could care less what anyone else made at maymadness either. Nobody that was there uses the same setup today.



If you had better injectors you might have been over 600.



I'm not burning bridges with anyone.



Evidently Nowell and I think a lot alike. I found out that he is using some innovatve wastegating on his B1 twins. I've never seen them or discussed the gates on those trucks with anyone until today.

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

Jim,

I guess you knew about the HX40 that blew up and took out the HX60 on his twins???



just checking.

 

[CUMINNTSTRKN]

mark



i was not aware that kevin's 40 came apart and ruined a hx60. i thought he had a ht3b? i was just explaining that a lot of this stuff is built around a package. you can't just mix and match certain co's products and hope to have the best outcome.



jim