Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Operation Lift Pump Longevity (long)

[Ncostello]

I have suffered one lift pump failure in my ownership of a 24V Dodge. And after reading hundreds of posts (and searches) regarding the failure of these pumps and looking at all the possible solutions to date... I have decided on the setup I am going with. First I must say I admire those who have taken it upon themselves to solve the problem using the various alternatives we know of. Commonly known methods involve pushers, relocating pumps, PE pumps, larger lines, better fittings, large banjo bolts, etc all in the name of better performance and reliability. And with all the good ideas passed along came my own vision of what I wanted. TDR members are innovative, helpful, responsive, generous, and just plain good people. Without all the prior posts on the issue, I would have been in the dark and maybe not even realized the problem existed.



This thread is not intended to raise the question of which solution is better. Some have never even had a failure. Rather it is a place where I will post what I have chosen and how it progresses during installation and operation. It could prove to be a flop but I feel comfortable I know what I want and how to get there. I feel I have a decent grasp of the problem(s) and I have the tools to make it happen.



My goal is to accomplish several things at once. Eliminate vertical lift for the lift pump. Shorten the distance from the tank to the pump. Provide clean filtered and water free fuel to the lift pump. Provide larger fuel lines for and aft the pump. Eliminate angled fittings altogether (of any kind). Make lift pump changes extremely simple (if ever needed). Provide a better final filter with lower micron ratings than OEM. Reduce the need to bump the starter to prime the system. Make filter changes extremely simple with no messy drips on the engine or frame... everything is under the truck. Make priming and bleeding air work for once on my truck. Provide super clean fuel to the VP at acceptable pressures (constantly). Give me something to do and have fun doing it .



This fix is basically a Carter OEM pump relocation with a slight twist. I plan on having 1/2" line, twin Stanadyne Fuel Manager filters (80 GPH capacity each from a proven OEM supplier), and using the stock lift pump wiring harness to power the pump. I'm not going to use the stock fuel filter setup any longer and I will only have 1-90 deg. elbow in the system (AN type) at the VP44 inlet. All other fittings are straight through. The lift pump and filters are frame rail mounted and the hose runs right along the frame up to the VP44. No more trips through bends, banjos, etc. No more long draws and fuel traveling up to a high mounted filter only to come back down. I call it the linear approach to reducing pump stress. I really dislike the OEM filter canister and location... and everything else about it.



The fix first has upgraded lines coming out of the tank... 1/2" will do fine. It will also involve removing the bed, inspecting the tank, and removing the pickup screen mesh. I've yet to see this pickup assembly and I will modify it if I dont like what I see. Time will tell on this part of it. The fuel will travel to a Stanadyne Fuel Manager FM100 filter head mounted directly in front of the tank. This 30 mic filter (150 mic optional) will remove most water and impurities before the pump. The restriction by this filter has been determined very minimal during my phone conversation with Stanadyne engineering (great folks and very knowledgeable of the VP44 and lift pump situation). This filter head will incorporate a 150W heater, manual primer pump and a WIF sensor. Perhaps a see through bowl but I can always add that later (totally modular filter heads). The filter head is 3" tall and the filter is 4. 3" tall so the frame rail will protect it well. I'm adding skid plates and deflection shields to the bracket as well for added protection from debris and the elements. This will accomplish supplying the lift pump with debris free and water free fuel... two things which I believe help kill OEM pumps (among other things as well).



Secondly the lift pump will reside on another custom bracket that attaches to the existing transmission (5spd) cross member bolts. The cross member will provide some level of protection and the location will make it super easy to change if it ever fails again. The Cummins adapter harness will be lengthened a foot or two and should prove to be fine.



Finally a second Stanadyne FM100 filter head will be placed after the lift pump (about where the engine mates with the transmission) and incorporate a 5 mic final filter (2 mic optional). Both filters are rated for up to 80 GPM, will last 500 hours (10000 miles) normally, and are rather compact as compared to similar Racor units. Plus I dont have to run a clear bowl if I dont want to. There will only be a drain port at the bottom of these filters which can modularly adapt to a clear bowl later. This unit will also have a WIF and a 100W heater. Both heaters can run off the OEM wires as they are not part of the ECM, PCM circuits. The OEM wires have a 300W capacity through the power block heater relay. Both WIF sensors will operate in cab lights using their own circuits and sensors. The OEM WIF wiring however goes through the ECM and depends on the stock WIF sensor to feed the dash light through the CCD circuit. (not sure what happens to the dash light if I leave the OEM sensor unplugged permanently... hopefully nothing).



These components are to be mounted along the frame and will not extend down below the frame. I'm going to make sure they are properly guarded from debris using shields integral to the bracket. And I'm going to use holes already in the frame to mount it all... theres plenty already there. All painted black it should match OK and look kinda factory. All the fittings will be Aeroquip socketless -8 with black socketless hose (still unsure on this one). All the fittings can be straight with the exception of the VP44 inlet which has to be a sweep 90.



The output hose will leave the final filter and travel low and along the frame right up the the VP44. No elevation changes anymore for me. This makes sense since the VP inlet is already somewhat low to begin with. Top it off with a post-final-filter pressure sending unit and a shutoff ball valve prior to the primary filter and that should be it. I'll also upgrade the return line while I'm at it I suppose.



It seems like I'm leaving something out but I'm going to update this thread as needed and keep an accurate photo log in Readers Rigs for the custom work required. This aint quick, it aint easy , and isn't going to be a 1/2 day job... but its what I feel will be a good system when I'm done. Some may think its overkill and argue a pusher will do all that I ever need. But I have to go down this road now. Its too late to turn back. Stanadyne makes great looking modular filter setups and I haven't seen too much about them other than Scheids lift pump system (which is a version of the FM100) but I think I'll like it. This was long I know but I wanted to get my final answer (idea) to the lift pump saga out there. Not too wild I suppose but getting the OEM filter outta there and putting everything on the frame isn't often heard of. To each his own.



I often take the advice of a Vietnam War Veteran (helicopter gunship pilot) I know. When things go bad... do something... if it makes it worse... do something else... but do something.



EDIT NOTE: 15W40 is also posting some very interesting and promising information about building and testing an electronic lift pump control module that will pulse the motor on-off-on-off at variable settings (such as 10 times per second) to maintain a set psi output of the lift pump. This looks great for various reasons!

 

[Ncostello]

Basic photo of a Fuel Manager FM 100 by Stanadyne. This photo does not show the optional heater, WIF, primer or see-thru bowl all of which can be added at any time. The mount and port body is cast aluminum and filter lock is poly plastic. Basic FM100 filter head is around $45. Filters come in 150, 30, 5 and 2 micron ratings... and in lengths from 3. 5" up to 6" (perhaps longer). All filters flow 80GPH and the larger ones need less frequent changes. Stanadyne says the 4. 3" filter will provide service intervals similar to the Fleetguard OEM filter.

 

[24VChev]

Your filter

I work on Cat equipment for a living and I see that fliter all the time. Cat uses it on alot of the excavators for a primary water seperator. The bowl you mention just screws inplace of the drain fitting on the bottom. I always see lots of crud in them. I would add the bowl on your first filter. I am interested in how you make out, I was thinking of a simular set up. The Cat filter will fit that head and fleetguard also makes a filter that will fit.



Malcolm

 

[curatchko]

I don't mean to turn this into a product discussion, but can you tell me where I can purchase this fuel filter? Is there a place online to purchase it?



My lift pump is failing a slow death... it's been on the way out for about 6 months... only bad when it's cold, but once it's warmed up I have good pressure... so I've been procrastinating... . should do something soon I guess. I'm not just replacing it with another problem though so I'm interested in your install.

 

[Ncostello]

One place that has good descriptions of the product and good photos is Reliable Industries out of Louisiana. They mainly deal in construction equipment engine parts but have good info on Stanadyne. Plus the stanadyne web page can locate your nearest dealer for you. That would probably be best.



Reliable Industries



Stanadyne



I can get my Stanadyne products at Scheid Diesel Inc here in Indiana. Its only about a 15 mile drive from home.

 

[15w40]

You don’t say if you are planning on using the stock Carter pump in your “make-over” of the low pressure side of the fuel system, but if you are, there may be a few things to consider.



After taking apart several of the Carter pumps to try to find out what went wrong and reading several TDR members comments about their findings, there seems to be three main reasons for a bad pump.



The internal spillover valve wearing out caused the most common problem. This problem shows up as an erratic and/or low fuel pressure reading. The reason for this valve is to limit the load on the lift pump at idle when the VP44 blocks most of the flow.



The second most common problem was with the motor brushes and commutator wear. This causes the motor to slow and reduce fuel volume and pressure. Generally the fuel pressure did not jump around but just remained low. Several of the Mallory pumps have shown this problem also.



The third problem was caused by the mechanical connection between the motor and pump failing. The symptom was a normal sounding lift pump with no fuel flow and no pressure. The motor/pump connection is a plastic cylinder that fits over the motor shaft and connects to rotary vanes.



I don’t know if there is a replacement pump that is bulletproof, but I am playing around with a PE 4200 on my test bench with some good results. This pump is a well-made pump. The internal spill back uses a spring and ball valve similar to the Carter pump except using a long spring that should last many times longer that the short spring in the Carter pump. I have not yet taken it completely apart, but doubt any plastic is used to couple the pump. The motor is dry, unlike the fuel-cooled motor on the Carter. Also ball bearings are used instead of sintered bronze in the Carter.



The spec-sheet that came with the pump says the pump draws about 9 amps under load, requiring a relay. The 18 to 20 psi this pump puts out is too much pressure IMHO. I have developed a circuit to limit the pump pressure to a constant 5-psi under all conditions from idle to WOT by using a pulse width modulated motor controller. In non-nerd speak; this circuit changes the pump motor speed to maintain the pressure at 5 psi.



As I discover more good and bad points about the pump I will post again with schematics and test results.

 

[EricBu12]

Here is my Racor Filter. The first one is in a setup i used to have, now my setup is the lower 2 photos.



<img src=https://www.turbodieselregister.com/user_gallery/sizeimage.php?&photoid=4633&width=2/src img>



Filter is mounted in th front hollow of the bed just behind the cab. Mounted on the cross rail of the bed.

<img src=https://www.turbodieselregister.com/user_gallery/sizeimage.php?&photoid=4746&width=2/src img>



Pump below is a 7# carter and is mounted on the outside of the frame about the middle of the tank area.

<img src=https://www.turbodieselregister.com/user_gallery/sizeimage.php?&photoid=4744&width=2/src img>

 

[Whitmore]

Originally posted by 15w40





The spec-sheet that came with the pump says the pump draws about 9 amps under load, requiring a relay. The 18 to 20 psi this pump puts out is too much pressure IMHO. I have developed a circuit to limit the pump pressure to a constant 5-psi under all conditions from idle to WOT by using a pulse width modulated motor controller. In non-nerd speak; this circuit changes the pump motor speed to maintain the pressure at 5 psi.



As I discover more good and bad points about the pump I will post again with schematics and test results.

I agree that 20 psi is too much, I know alot of folk here are doing it but I believe they will see early failure of the VP.



I am curious to know why you want only 5 psi constant instead of say 12-15. And at that 5 psi what is the flow rate? The reason I ask that is because it is the mass flow that will carry the heat away as well as supply much needed lubication.



This pulse width deal? Does this function as a variable frequency drive does?



Neil, I like your idea and will follow this thread, you have a good system in mind and I think it will work out fine! I would consider the PE4200 to be a better pump than the OEM Carter. Also you WILL need to modify the OEM pickup inside the tank or there will be your bottleneck otherwise the larger suction line will be useless.



cheers, Kevin

 

[Ncostello]

Eric, your one of the many who helped me decide to be innovative and do better. You've got a nice looking setup going there. Kyle too!



15W40... I think it was the 4th paragraph where I mentioned I was going to use the OEM Carter lift pump. I'll admit my first post was longer than I anticipated and its very easy to miss some stuff I mentioned. I felt like I wrote a book but I had to get the whole idea out there right from the beginning. Looks like you've got a high tech approach going with the PE4200.



I seriously considered the PE pump, and haven't ruled it out, but I feel like the OEM Carter (latest revision) has the possibility of doing exactly what I want given a water-debris free supply of fuel. I kinda want to see if the OEM pump simply needs a better operating environment... plus my new one only has 6000 miles on it so I want to see if I can make it last.



Whitmore, this should prove to be a good project for me. I plan on taking the bed off for access to the fuel pickup and screen. I'm going to permanently remove the screen and check for any signs of debris in the tank when I drain it. I plan on using all of my "innovative" power to make the stock pickup assembly up to the task of what I want to accomplish. I'll leave the bed off during initial test drives to make pickup access easy if I develop any problems. I dont know how I'll connect 1/2" hose to the tank connections. I'll deal with that when the time come.



Thus far the Stanadyne parts and prices (cheapest I found) are as follows:



Pre-Filter (before the lift pump):

FM100 Header 33648, 30M Primary Filter/Water Sep. 31865, Hand Primer Pump 29578, 100W Heater Element 34145, 12V Water Sensor Kit 29268... $153. 29.



Final Filter (after the lift pump):

FM100 Header 33648, 5M Final Filter/Water Sep. 31873, 100W Heater Element 34145... . $78. 56



Replacement elements are between $10 and $12. The header uses 3/8"x18 NPTF ports as Stanadyne said they are actually larger than the SAE 1/2"x20 O-Ring model they offer. Only the FM1000 has larger NPTF ports. . and its too big physically for my use. Stanadyne assured me the OEM lift pump will not have any trouble pulling or pushing through these filters. The filter heads have a nice bleeder screw too! They said I wouldn't need the primer since I have an electric pump... but I want it anyway.



The clear sight bowl is $25. 35 if I ever decide to use it. I'm only using 1 WIF sensor in the primary because it should detect the most amount of water I see. A WIF in the final filter should never come on before the primary does... I'll just drain both if the primary filter WIF lights up. Heaters are in both although Stanadyne said the final filter shouldn't need one because the primary filters heater would melt any wax and the lift pump and VP would provide additional heat as it warms up. But I want two anyway. Cant hurt I suppose.



Thats all I have. I'm really banking on the premise that the "lift" pump becomes the "transfer" pump it was always intended to be... simply transfering fuel from one point to the another at roughly the same elevation... and without much restriction.

 

[Ncostello]

This is the link to my newly created photo album #1. Basically its my truck... the reason I joined the TDR! I'm not a photo expert... just wanted to get some photos out there and let everyone know what I'm working on.



My 99 Dodge

 

[15w40]

Ncostello, I am also on a quest to solve the lift pump problem so please let me apologies in advance for the long diatribe.



I started this project almost 1 year ago; to design a fuel system that will last as long as the Cummins ISB without constant pump problems.



The rotary vane pump inside the VP-44 pressurizes the pump internals to about 300 psi (if my memory is working). It is this fuel that fills the radial-piston pump and is used to lube the mechanism.



Here is a quote from Dave Fritz’s web page:

“The VP44 does not inject fuel when the throttle is closed and the engine speed is above idle (i. e. decelerating or coasting). When no fuel is being injected, all of the fuel is returning to the tank and the injector pump's distributor rotor head is turning with no cooling or lubrication from fuel. I don't know how long the rotor can run with no fuel, but a lubricating fuel supplement will help maintain a film on the rotor head to help keep it cool. ”



The excess fuel volume inside the VP44 pump returns back to the tank carrying heat with it only when the throttle is open. The amount of excess fuel inside the pump is a function of engine speed, not pressure at the input port. There have been reports on TDR that the fuel volume returned to the tank is about 30 GPH at maximum engine speed and this measurement did not increase with increasing pressure at the input port on the VP-44.

Cummins has specified that the starting fuel pressure to the VP44 should be between 4 and 8 psi when cranking to insure easy starting. This is why the ECM duty cycles the lift pump voltage to reduce pressure when starting. When the engine is running the pressure will be between 8 and 17 psi (although a Bosch engineer claims the VP44 will have no problems with -2 psi at its inlet). To make these numbers, the lift pump is run at low speed when cranking and full speed at all other times. The fuel volume from the lift pump must be sufficient to maintain 8 psi at WOT and be below 17 psi at idle. The spill-back valve inside the Carter lift pump opens at 15 psi to keep the pressure below 17 psi. (It is my belief the 8 psi number was set by Cummins and/or Dodge to indicate when a lift pump is in trouble. ) These specifications do not it easy for any fuel lift pump. Now add enhancements for HP and more fuel volume is needed at WOT while not over-pressuring at idle. The VP44 accelerates the lift pump wear problem by creating pressure spikes in the in the fuel supply as its internal vane pump both restricts and draws in fuel. These pressure spikes are constantly beating up the lift pump, internal spill-over valve.



I have taken a different strategy that I feel may solve most of the lift pump problems by installing a circuit to maintain 5 psi under all conditions. The reason for this is to prevent the pressure relief valve from opening and to slow the pump motor, reducing wear. Now instead of the pump constantly pumping its guts out and spilling back the unneeded fuel, it is only running at the speed needed to maintain 5 psi. At WOT with a stock engine the Carter pump may be running near full speed but at all other times it will back off and slow down. For those using major fueling boxes and shower heads, one pump that can handle WOT fuel needs can be used. The PE4200 is what I will be using. It will be loafing along at idle and at cruise but wakes up when pouring on the coal. A side benefit to this approach is the fuel pressure will stay up as the filter starts to clog or as the fuel gets thicker at cold arctic temperatures. Another benefit is this high volume and high pressure pump will not cause starting problems because the lift pump motor backs off to maintain 5 psi. The spill back valve will never wear out because it will never be used.



I still have a lot of work to finish before I can tell you if this idea is viable, but I hope to have it completed in about 4 weeks.



If anyone sees any flaws in my logic, please post. I am an electrical engineer, not a diesel mechanic. Motor drive circuits are not difficult to design for me but if I am wrong about the care and feeding of the VP44, I would like some feedback.



I just do not believe the Carter pump is a good long term solution even when using larger lines or positive pressure at its input.

 

[Ncostello]

15W40... since you'll be using pulse width modulation to essentially place the PE4200 into a variable duty cycle all the time... how do you think the motor will hold up to that? I know PWM is a good way to vary DC motor speed but I didn't know if thats true for all DC motors since some 12V motors dont like voltages below 12V. Doesn't PWM basically reduce the average voltage the motor sees by varying the time which the 12 volts is "turned on"? Kinda like the ECM's duty cycle of the voltage... but with a more capable high vol pump.

 

[15w40]

Motor heating is a concern but not in this case. Mike from Product Engineering had the same thought when I told him about the Pulse Width Modulation idea. The PE 4200 and the Carter lift pump are permanent magnet field motors. The rotor contains the windings and will heat up if the frequency of the PWM is high because the iron will create eddy currents. The frequency of my circuit is only 10 Hz, with the voltage varying between 0 volts and 12 volts. Testing the Carter and PE pump shows less heating than running on a constant 12 volts. The PE pump only draws 2. 5 amps when making 5 psi, running at 37% duty cycle. This is a lot less than the 8 amps it draws with a constant 12 volts when making 18 psi.



This thread pushes all my buttons. I did not intend to hijack it. Sorry.

 

[Ncostello]

You didn't hijack nothin 15W40. I have never ruled out the PE4200... I just didn't plan on starting out with it. I like the pump alot... and who knows... I may end up having to use it if the Carters still wimp out after all my work. Keep going with the pulse width modulation. Thats really creative to this situation and thats whats needed.



I like threads like this too because it makes me tick... this is the kind of work I wish I could do everyday. R&D is my hidden passion. And sometimes its fun to me to not know the answers. If I fail... I can always bolt it all back up the way it came from Dodge.



Found out some good info at work today. Our heavy equipment shop has shelfs of Fleetguard filters... and they have equivalents to the Stanadyne ones I need. Shop manager said Fleetguard makes them for Stanadyne... I dont know if thats true or not but at least I have an emergency source if needed.

 

[Ncostello]

Update...photos of my filters.

This album is where I am keeping my Stanadyne filter installation photos (what I have purchased thus far). Fuel Manager FM100



I received the filter/accessories shipment thus far and have been "test" fitting some stuff in various places to best suit what I want to accomplish. With the 4. 3" filter I can mount it about anywhere. If I use a 6" filter, I will be right at the bottom of the frame rail so I have to choose wisely.



The Stanadyne products are top notch, and I've seen many of them available. It has plenty-o-features available.



One note: I dont think I'll use the hand primer pump. I'm going to take it off and re-install the blank top cap. I find the primer pump does add a measurable restriction to an otherwise free flowing filter head. The fuel has to be pulled through a rubber diaphram valve. Stanadyne says the lift pump will prime these with ease and didn't even recommend the primer pump, especially since the lift pump will be back there by the tank with these things. Both heads have bleeder valves to purge air thus making lift pump priming that much easier.



Right now I'm fighting myself over which hose and what connections to use. Meantime I'll be working on the brackets to hold all this up. Should look nice and work better I hope.

 

[GWHaley]

Stanadyne/Cat filter setup

I think your filter setup is a perfect choice. As a Cat mechanic in the recent past, I've seen many of these filter setups. Cat has one of the most stringent filtering specs out there and I would feel very comfortable using this setup myself (and you can be sure I'll be watching what you're doing here and taking it under consideration myself!). If you have a Cat dealer nearby, you may have a few more options for your filter replacements as well. Thanks for the well thought out posts and keep us updated!



Gordon

 

[Ncostello]

GWHaley... I stole this from our shop store room. It appears to be manufactured by Stanadyne for Fleetguard as the "S" logo and "Patents appplied for and Granted" are stamped in the top on both filters. I like the Stanadyne version as they print the micron right on there. Notice the notches in the Fleetguard Super High Performance version. That one will only fit certain heads depending on the OEM who is using the Stanadyne head. Prevents the wrong filter I suppose. I can order mine by crossing my numbers. $13. 00 is what I paid. Cheaper in boxes of 12.

 

[Herman8r]

pusher pump

I like all of the ideas on the various systems. I have a setup just like EricBu12's. The problem I have is there is too much pressure to the VP44 at start up. Know that I have read this post I think it may be due to the failing lift pump (I run both pumps at the same time). I have aprox. 25 psi at start up with the carter pump on. With the carter pump off i have 1-2 psi. I experience hard starts all the time with this set up on a new VP44 (replaced it because the bosch rep said the VP44 was bad--not). I ended up installing a program-able timed relay to delay the carter pump--about 45 seconds--this instantly solved my hard start problems. I still have the problem of high fuel pressure. I just picked up the updated lift pump from Cummins last week. I will put this on and see if it helps.



I like the idea of the regulated power to the lift pumps--maybe this the next high tech solution.



One thing I enjoy about TDR--the possibilities are endless.



I am open to any advice also.



Keep up the good work, Herman R

 

[rweis]

What a unique idea of varying the speed of the LP.



I mounted my LP back by the tank and so far it is running fine. I do notice that prefilter it does 15 or 16 psi at idle (could be a slight gauge reading difference) and it does not go below 14 at WOT pulling 8k RV for hours.



When this OEM goes I was going to the PE lower pressure version. Mainly because I thought it was better built and would be more reliable.



The concept of PWM is truly fascinating. I would really like to know more it and definitely will read closely. What a cool idea.





Bob Weis

 

[15w40]

Here is an update on my constant pressure lift pump circuit.



I have completed the design and am bench testing it. The pump I am using is the PE 4200 although I have also used the Carter pump with this circuit. Both pumps work well. I discovered that my original estimate of using a 10 Hz Duty cycle is too slow and causes the motor in the pumps to “cog”. Increasing the frequency to about 70 Hz is just right for a smooth running pump. I have a potentiometer to set the pump pressure anywhere from about 2 psi to the maximum the pump is capable of. I am currently setting the pressure to 7. 5 psi. This pressure should allow both good starting and enough for WOT demand. The pressure sender I am using is made by Westtech; PN 387-15KV. The reason I chose this one is because it is an electronic one, the type approved for aircraft applications because of its reliability. Resistive type senders are not approved by the FAA for use in aircraft because of the high failure rate. My goal is to make a bulletproof system so the choice was the FAA approved one. The circuit is designed to supply up to 35 amps of lift pump current so almost any 12-volt pump can be used.



I am currently running the pump continuously with the circuit monitored with a scope and volt and current meters. I am also monitoring the circuit and pump temperature and things look good. The pump and circuit work with the voltage as low as 8 volts and as high as 18 volts with almost no change in pressure or pump current. What happens is the duty cycle changes to keep the pressure constant. As I add restriction to the output of the pump, the pressure remains within 1/10 of a psi of the 7. 5-psi set point.



I hope to install this in my truck next week. Before I can do that I need to replace my clutch so I can get some accurate WOT pressure readings. I will post a schematic and part list after the trial on the truck. The good news is the part cost for the circuit is about $25. The fuel pressure sender is about $105. If this can solve the short lift pump life I feel it is worth it.



I wish there were more hours in the day.