Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Operation Lift Pump Longevity (long)

[csutton7]

TDK-- -10 AN is perfect--that's what mine is--let the fuel get to the pump---



Ncostello--yep that's what mine looked like---now it's just a glorified fuel return dump holder---



in about 15 days I will hit 23 months on a single pump with my gravity fed system----chris

 

[TxDieselKid]

Originally posted by csutton7

TDK-- -10 AN is perfect--that's what mine is--let the fuel get to the pump---

Chris,

Mine is only -10AN untill the enter of the PE4200, after the prefilter. Then it goes -8AN all the way INTO the fuel filter housing. I had to drill and tap it, to do that. then it shrinks back to -6AN to exit the housing, and enter the VP.



Andrew

 

[Ncostello]

Txdieselkid... the more I think about that sump the more I like it. Wow... just think... -8 hose right off the bottom to a lift pump not more than 4 feet away and at the same elevation. Hmmmm.



Right now I'm probably just going to throw the OEM unit back in and just forget about the mesh that is gone. And I'll leave the check valve out so some fuel will pour around the suction point during swishing. Vaughn Mackenzie has been running a 1/2" standpipe and no mesh for some time. He told me he has had the level down to E and past on the gauge without any noticable problems of losing pressure. So I figure if I dont really go below 1/4 tank... 5" depth in mine... I should never have any issues. Filling up when I reach 1/4 is something I always do anyway.



I've got a great (very simple, very effective) idea on a module design... but that would come a little later on. I need to get her back up again and concentrate on the filters and lift pump. Otherwise I'll miss Muncie. Thats coming too fast for me.



But that sump... Hmmmm

 

[TxDieselKid]

Originally posted by Ncostello

But that sump... Hmmmm

#ad

Txdieselkid... the more I think about that sump the more I like it. Wow... just think... -8 hose right off the bottom to a lift pump not more than 4 feet away and at the same elevation. Hmmmm.

That was the intent of that sump. We made it, so that ANYONE(read: size), can use it. If the word even spread to the ricer crowd, then it could be adapted for them also.



Wanna see it again?



#ad




Just think, positive pressure pushing to the pump!!!



Andrew

 

[Ncostello]

Txdieselkid... you should show us the pics of this on your truck. Especially since its 2WD! Maybe a side shot of the truck down low to see it off the bottom of the tank.



EDITED: Oh ya... what kind of vacuum (in-Hg) do you think the Carter OEM pump can pull. Anyone ever check into that??

 

[Ncostello]

And one question more. Does anyone know, or has anyone ever opened up this thing? The suction hose attaches to this cylinder shaped item inside the fuel module. The view is looking down into the module. When looking up through the hole in the bottom of the module all I can see is a black plastic disk at the bottom of it... which completey blocks my view inside. From the top this is all I can see. It does not operate as a check valve to keep prime I think because fuel will easily flow through it both ways. I put about 2 psi air on it and it seems clean and unrestricted. Hmmm.

 

[csutton7]

I wouldn't use a carter pump for a paper weight---get a different aftermarket pump----the choice for now seems to be the PE4200----it is still in the testing state as far as I'm concerned, but may turn out to be a good one----my Areomotive is going on 23 months like I said----the only other guy that's gone this long and maybe longer is "ynot" with his pusher pump system(Holley and stock carter I think)-----chris

 

[csutton7]

ncostello--are you talking about the float in the bottom of the pickup unit or something else----chris

 

[Ncostello]

Part (well mostly all) of this work I'm doing is for OEM Carter lift pump longevity. I'm making changes which I believe will make the OEM pump do its job better. I can always go to the PE later on with relative ease. I "believe" I can help this pump go at lest 100,000 miles like it should. Obviously the results of all this wont be immediately evident and a fluke pump failure (which could happen to any pump) would throw this off. I dont want to go as far as saying the Carter is the absolute best available... but for some reason I believe it can work.



That photo is not of a float. My float is on an external arm outside the module. This shot shows a "tower" or "cylinder" that the suction hose goes down to inside the body of the module.



This cylinder sits directly over the suction hole in the bottom of the module. Fuel passes thru it before it actually comes in contact with the black suction tubing. My first guess was a check valve of sorts... but mine does not function as such unless its broke. It is definately a chamber of some kind... as to whats in it I cant tell without destructive exploration. Its not molded into the module lower body... rather it appears to be held there with a permanent ring clamp at the bottom of it. I held it up to intense light in hopes to "see" thru the plastic but cant.

 

[csutton7]

ok I'm talking about the float thingy(for better term) in the bottom of the pickup unit itself---I'm going from memory over two years ago--so bear with me---



in the mesh thing, anyway I thought/think it was in the mesh part, at the bottom of the pickup unit is another float--round maybe 1/2" thick and 2" in diameter--is this what you're talking about????---chris

 

[Ncostello]

That thing in the bottom between the screens is a check valve that dumps reservoir fuel inbetween the mesh screens (If I'm thinking what your thinking). The only other thing in there is a spacer deal that slides on the pickup nipple at the very bottom of the module... keeps the mesh from being pushed up against the suction inlet. This thing is about 1. 5" dia by 3" tall inside the module rising up from the bottom of the main body. Oh well... I put it back in tonight. All I installed was the module with the old mesh screen "cage" that acts as a spacer now.



Not sure if you noticed my link to the module pics about 12 posts back. There is a couple of good shots of the bottom components. I did notice another module in Readers Rigs from a 99. It looked to function the same but was made using some metal parts. . just a little different. But there wasn't bottom photos so I dont know how they differ if they do. Mines all plastic.



Had a good work session tonight. Got rid of ALL things supply from the tank fitting to the VP. Motor looks bare on the drivers side now! Need to add a little chrome down there now!



PS: For anyone interested, the rubber fuel line section between the OEM filter and the VP banjo tubes is J30R9 Fuel Injection Hose. Thats what was marked on it. After 80K, it still looked great inside. Might help those considering a pusher install where some rubber hose is desired. Weatherhead makes some pretty good stuff with this rating.

 

[Ncostello]

Csutton7... I guess the only fear I have about whats inside that module component is that now I now longer have the mesh. Thus what ever passes by the suction hole at the bottom of the module goes through this part. If it were hollow inside I'd not worry as my primary filter will catch it before the lift pump. But if stuff starts building up in there over time I'll lose fuel delivery.



All I really know is that it flows both ways and when you look up through the suction inlet at the bottom of the module, you cant see up in it as some kind of black disk is inside of it. Kinda hard to explain.



I guess if it ever causes a problem I'll have to take the bed back off and pull it apart to dismantle it... which will most likely end up in the modules destruction... which is when I drill a hole in the top of the module and install a true standpipe.

 

[csutton7]

Ncostello--you got me as to what it is--I have here next to me my old pickup head with the two lines(supply and return) attached to it and on the supply end is the plastic doohickey(1" in dameter and 4" long) that fits snug to the bottom of the assembly, is this module as you call it where you're seeing the black disc???? mine is clear--nothing in it---the mesh is a filter--wouldn't worry about it since you have other filters-----I don't remember any black disc that I removed when I originally put in the JRE system---I'm stumped---guess I should look in the manual and see if there's any info---I'll do that when I get time---chris

 

[Pit Bull]

I think the advantages of driving a 02 (latest design upgrade for the LP) and a regular cab truck (so the pump pulls within its design limits of the pump) and alway keeping your tank above 1/2 full are beneficial to the LP lasting. I do think that Ncostello is on the right track. Look forward to seeing the results.

 

[Edward]

Ncostello



I was wondering about that chamber where the fuel suction line and fuel return line is located. I would like to mention another consideration as to its purpose. In cold weather it would be a great mixing area that would warm up a small amount of fuel just before it was pulled into the fuel system loop. The warm fuel from the engine would return to the chamber and mix with cold fuel from the tank that was drawn into the mixing chamber. This would benefit because the fuel would be warmed as it was being used instead of trying to heat up the complete volume of fuel in the tank. Also if that mesh is as fine as you say then is a pre filter really necessary?



Edward

 

[Ncostello]

Edward... that mesh is very fine. I cannot see the "holes" with the naked eye whereas the mesh screen in the lift pump looks like something off the back porch screen door. I cannot say for sure but I really dont see what good a prefilter would do for a pusher setup (for example). I would doubt that a prefilter could do much better than this thing. I kept a piece of this mesh so I can take it over to the highschool lab to look at it with a microscope... just for kicks of course. I really dont see how much of anything sizeable could get through.



Of course I dont have it anymore so my 30 micron filter/water seperator is a must. Tonight I hooked up a vacuum pump to my hose to test its vacuum rating for the suction side. 24" of Hg (rating) didn't even phase it. I have no fear of the lift pump pulling that. I also made a Stainless tubing elbow that will make a nice smooth transition from the top of the module down to the frame rail. It was 3/8" diameter so the fuel line slips right over it. Even without clamps, it would hold full vacuum all night so the clamps will make it bullet proof. I'm using those Oetiker crimp clamps. . like the ones on the wastegate hose. They are smooth inside so they wont mess with the hose cover. My fuel hose will all be ran in straight lengths with the only elbow (not counting the SS super long sweep tube) will be a steel aeroquip one at the VP.



The hardest part has to get done this weekend. Thats making custom brackets to mount the filters and LP. This will be very time consuming as the shop I'm using is about 2 miles away. Lots of measuring and test fits for sure. Had to quit early tonight and go outside to add some weight to my bed... which is sitting on blocks. A big thunderstorm rolled in and I didn't want it getting flipped or pushed over from high winds. Tomorrow I should be able to put the bed back on cause I'm done back there. Assuming some of my friends (who think I'm nuts with this project) will still come over to help. Otherwise I'll have to steal the autocrane truck from work again.

 

[Ncostello]

PS... I sure hope the ECM/PCM doesn't mind my WIF sensor being permanently unplugged... since the OEM canister is now gone. I'll be using Stanadynes integrated WIF sensor on the prefilter. It has its own electronic controller.

 

[Ncostello]

Over last weekend, I was finally able to get the fuel filter brackets done. My first designs didn't fit like I wanted them to so I spent the time and did them again. I went through three lift pump bracket designs and finally got the one I liked. However I couldnt make it at the shop I was working in because I didn't have the metal. I went to a metal sales shop and the guy said he'd sell me the steel and cut and shape it for $10 so I let him do it. I get to pick it up this afternoon. I've got everything I need now to finish the job.



My Dakota Digital gauge came in as well as the Autometer steering column mount. But the gauge wont fit in the hole by just a hair so I'll have to shave it larger I suppose. You'd think if a company was making a gauge pod for 2 1/16" gauges, they'd make the hole at least 2 1/16" diameter. Looks to be more like 2".



So tonight I'll start bolting it all up (after the bracket paint dries) and get the hoses hooked up. Then I'll run the wires and see what happens on Saturday. Looks like I cant make it to Muncie on Saturday. I'll try my best to get there on Sunday. Work, Vol. Fire Dept, and my cold has sure taken a bite out of my "schedule" I wanted to follow this week. (Cant believe I got a cold in June!!)



One thing however, the shutoff valve I bought (Parker Brass) is much larger and heavier than I expected. I really dont want that thing hanging off the filter head (Aluminum). So I'll forget about it right now. I just hope when I change the prefilter I dont get a siphon effect going on from the tank line. I dont know how I could get it to quit flowing fuel unless I change them when I have a 1/4 to 1/2 tank.

 

[Ncostello]

The bracket on the left (1 of 2) is the filter head bracket. The odd shaped bracket on the right is the lift pump relocation mount that bolts to the transmission cross member. I'm glad I let a fab shop make it for me. Their bends are better because they have an actual metal brake. I'll show some pics in my album for the installed product as its hard to see why its shaped like it is. I still need to drill the holes in the LP bracket.

 

[Ncostello]

I just wanted to drop a note that the system is complete and seems to be performing as hoped!!! I just got back from my first test drive and all went well... except for the strange looks I got from people staring at a pickup going down the road with no bed! It was kind of strange looking in the mirror and not seeing the back of my truck at all.



Before I hooked up the fitting to the VP, I stuck it in a 5 gallon bucket and ran the lift pump. This setup produces a very nice solid stream of fuel out the Aeroquip smooth 90 fitting. It almost felt as if I had a garden hose hooked to it. The is definately no absence of volume here anymore.



Anyway... I hooked up my spare pigtail I modified to hook directly to a battery. It primed twin filters and dry lines in about 8-10 seconds. I let it run for a good minute to completely purge all the air out. (I earlier also checked my VP return line pressure relief valve and it was popping open at around 13. 5 to 14psi). I unplugged the battery harness, plugged in the trucks harness and turned the key over. It started after cranking for about 5-8 seconds... sputtered for a second the took off nicely.



Idle was a solid 15. 4 psi and revving it up didn't drop it at all. Pressures are being monitored by my new Dakota Digital gauge mounted on the steering column. Its set to flash low warning at 8 and high at 18. They claim its fairly accurate so all my results are at the mercy of this gauge.



Driving around normally gave me a pressure drop to around 15. 0 to 15. 2. Wide open throttle in 5th going up a long hill gave me a 14. 6. That was the lowest I ever saw. I have the gauge on fast update so it takes readings every second or so to display. The good thing is that it doesn't vary up and down alot. It pretty much stays in the 14. 8-15. 2 range all the time. Plus this was all done with a 1/4 tank of fuel. A full tank might be even better. Also at 1/4 tank I noticed no loss of prime or pressure since I now have a gutted fuel module pickup (ie: no screens or check valves). I did a little analysis of this and figured all the fuel going away from the pickup tube would be a rare event at a very low tank level.



Thats all I have right now. A couple of friends are going to help me get the bed back on in a little while they I'll post some pics of the final installation in my album.



Its been hard work and cost a few bucks, but I think it was worth it in all.



PS: I did end up installing a nice little fuel rated ball valve for shutoff prior to the first filter. I'm glad I did cause it will siphon out all the fuel if I open the filter drain.