Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Operation Lift Pump Longevity (long)

[Ncostello]

I'm finally done

Here are the photos of my results. Lots of hard work but I like it. I hope it helps, or inspires others if they so choose to go to something like this. Screen settings should be bright to see details as the photo area was a little dark even with flash.



Stanadyne Filter System



Tonight I'll be tightening down the bed bolts and installing the rear bumper so I can really put some road testing on this.



The final filter is well protected as is the prefilter. However in the near future I'll make a small skid plate to further protect the prefilter. Later I'll also install the shorter 4. 5" prefilter. I only had to drill one small hole on the transmission crossmember and one small one for the 2nd prefilter bolt. All in all, I tried to use existing holes which worked out well.



Thanks for all of the suggestions and words of encouragement. Special thanks to Rod Snaith @ Wildcat Diesel (and Ed Looney) for those steel M12x1. 5 adapters (I didn't want aluminum ones and these were very nice).



Now I can rest at night.

 

[Ncostello]

The total cost for this system was as follows:



Stanadyne FM100 Fuel Managers, spare filters, WIF sensor kit, and filter head heaters for each filter = $281. 82



Hose, Fittings, Clamps and misc. parts and pieces = $117. 87



Dakota Digital Gauge, Autometer Column Pod (this piece is way overpriced for what it is) = $170. 27



Thus I've spent $569. 96 to do all of this. $399 if I didn't have to get the gauge and Pod. I didn't expect it to get this high but as always... It costs twice as much and takes three times longer to do than expected.



It took me two full weekends (12 hour days), plus about 2 hours each night during the week in between. Plus several days worth of time for planning time and purchasing. I still have to get the Stanadyne WIF sensor installed. Maybe this weekend I'll do that. The fuel heater units were backordered so I'll have to wait for them. Both are easy jobs.



Like I said in the first post... It wasn't going to be fast or cheap and probably isn't for everyone. But it was just something I wanted to try once. I guess the payoff will come over time I hope with increased pump life, cleaner fuel, easier to change filters, and easier to change pumps (if needed), and no more headaches when changing the stock filter and not being able to get it to prime. I'm sure it hurt my resale value but I dont plan on selling anytime soon.



A couple more performance notes today. Filling up the tank didn't net me any more pressure than 1/4 tank. It used to on the stock system but not on this setup. During a 20 mile drive on the freeway, I normally am staying around 14. 4 to 14. 6 psi. Once I was able to pull it down to 13. 4 on a long hill and I was really pouring the fuel on. My Dakota gauge wont read "point 0" whole numbers (ie: 15. 0). Its either 14. 8 or 15. 2.



I also noticed that I cannot hear the pump at all once the truck is running. The mount is solid on the transmission crossmember. As a note I also removed the screen inside the lift pump. I figured it wasn't necessary anymore and didn't need to be there. Maybe it will help the pump out some too.



Oh well... I'm done now. This has been a long thread and the results will take time. Lots of reading here. Some boring, some better.



If I had it to do over again what would I do??? I'd just relocate the pump, cut the stock stainless fuel line in front of the tank and keep the rest the same. I'd probably also install some improved banjo bolts. That would keep it simple, cheap, and effective. However I had to go through all this to be able to say that. I'm happy with what I got now too!!!! Since this has been a long wordy thread... the very first post sums up all of what I wanted to do. I've pretty much accomplished all that I set out to do.



All my photos are in my gallery ncostello.

gallery



This link will take you to my truck and you can select to view other albums in the gallery. You will see the Fuel Managers, the Module in the tank, and the relocated pump and filters in seperate albums.

 

[Ncostello]

Don't mean to keep posting so much on this... but the setup is doing real well for me after 250 miles I know thats no measure of endurance but at least its not doing bad. Normally a person can figure on 14psi idle and on down to 8-9 psi WOT. But I am seeing a consistent 14. 8 to 15. 2 idle and never below 13. 0 under anything I can put it through. The idle will build to 15. 4 if it sits for a minute or so. I've had it WOT up some good hills and it seems to keep up real well. I havent pulled a heavy trailer so I can't comment on that. Even still I cant see it ever pulling it down below 12. 0. That beats the stock pressures all day long. This is assuming the lift pump stays in its current like new condition.



Seems like the lack of restriction may be the key here. I never expected it to stay on 15psi all the time. At the same time I hoped it wouldn't get below 10 at any time. So it has exceeded my expectations by far. Normally while crusing down the highway I'll see around 13. 4 to 14. 2 depending on where the foot feed is at.



I sure hope this does the trick. Getting rid of all the banjo fittings was probably one of the best things I did. I also had Practical Solutions make me a adapter harness exactly like the Cummins Pigtail you can buy... only longer. I didn't want their whole kit with relays and all as I didn't think I needed it (I would recommend it on a PE pump however). I just dont like the homemade wiring extension I made... I figured a harness without solder joints or crimp connectors would be the way to go.



Later... Neil

 

[Sregorb]

HELP

All those subscribed to this thread, especially those that have had a pump failure, please check out this thread and help:

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=75368



Brian

 

[Ncostello]

1 year later and my first problem?

True to my initial post... I am reporting all the good and bad of my lift pump relocation. My thread involves trying to maximize the potential of the Carter OEM lift pump as I see it. For those not familiar... I chose the best operating parameters I could think of for the Carter... good location low and close to the tank, prefilter/water seperator, no banjo fittings, etc etc. I eliminated all the things commonly thought to be bad for this pump.



I started with a new Carter pump as supplied by a Cummins dealership. I ran it in the stock location for about 1000 miles before the move. I wanted it to last. And now I'm getting signs of failure... perhaps.



Pressure was always 15. 5-16psi on the initial key on run for 3 seconds. On start it would remain at or above 15. Motoring down the highway at 65 would always have me in the 14's and sometimes I'd hit a low 15. 2 or so. I used a Dakota Digital gauge mounted on the steering column. My eyes have become used to watching the gauge under all the different circumstances of driving.



On my way to and from Muncie... I thought something was amiss. I couldn't hardly keep 14 on the highway. Usually it was in the mid 13's and I could easily pull it down into the 12's and almost 11 psi. That is not normal for my setup. No way before could I pull it down to 11 or close.



Today is no better after filter changes. My filters on there prior were OK but I changed them to make sure. I can't even idle at 14-15psi this evening. I'll have to figure the miles I put on here in the last year based on my oil change log book. I never posted the beginning miles. But rest assured it wasn't over 15,000 total put on this system.



I'm hoping its the pressure relief valve on the VP return line port. I was kind of "iffy" back when I pressure checked it. If thats the problem good. If not... then I'll be going to Fuel Preporator Air Dog. There is nothing else I can think of to be causing the problem besides the pump or the relief valve. 15,000 miles shouldn't have any effects on a fuel pump for this engine. And even though 11-12 psi is OK... it represents failure to me. My intentions were consistent numbers for a long time.



If the pump is going bad... I will then finally, finally believe its not worth messing with any longer. Waste of money if I didnt help the pump live longer? Yes in a sense. No in another. I learned alot. There is no advance without failure. If my pump is bad... I'll consider it good R & D and move on. I'll never advocate keeping a Carter to anyone if this one goes bad. Did I get a bad pump to begin with? Maybe... but how in the world do I "pick" out a good one? They should all be good to go for a long time. I know how much we rely on this little pump and I will just have to shrug my shoulders as to how some folks go 100K without a problem in a stock location.



Wish me luck in trouble shooting if your a Carter fan!!

 

[Ncostello]

I suppose I better verify the gauge and sending unit is OK too. Almost forgot about that.

 

[csutton7]

sorry to hear about this--sucks when you do something and it doesn't work out like you planned---



on another note I'm one month away from hitting 3yrs on my 100% gravity fed(hole in the bottom of the tank) Aeromotive(which was used in a boat before I got it) setup---the only failure in this period has been one clogged pre filter(after 2 yrs)--I just changed the my Racor filter at the engine this past weekend since the initial install 3 yrs ago--did it need it--I don't think so, but 3yrs is long enuff on one filter for testing ----being 100% gravity fed would be an interesting test for the Carter---chris

 

[rashwor]

Ncostello, be sure you check the gauges and senders well. I suspect this is your problem. My Dakota Digital FP gauge flutates quite a bit, where my Manual gauge does not show the same. I suspect a bad sender and / or connections to the sender.



Either way, keep us posted.

 

[Ncostello]

My guage has always been pretty solid acting. It goes up and down but I've always considered it responsive and accurate for the most part. The sender is a VDO as supplied by Dakota Digital. The connections are flawless.



I'll be sending the gauge back in as the little "fuel press" internal sticker fell off. I'll have them check it if they can and send me a new sending unit. I'll have to verify with my 30 psi hydraulic gauge and hose. Hmmm... where did I put that thing?

 

[rweis]

There has been some noise about a mechanical fp from DTT. Check recent threads.



Something about mounting a bracket on oil pan bolts, ss pump vanes, add a pulley to the harmonic balancer for engine drive, OEM pump to prime with (somehow?), but a mechanical setup for 2nd gens (finally something short of replacing the cam), up front, low, etc etc.



Skechy info around, but I would bet not too far off before unveiling. Might call DTT and ask them.



Bob Weis



ps So far my OEM on the frame with much like your setup (Racor 690) but a post Mallory 4307M (set @ 12 psi) is holding up fairly well. However, I carry a NIB spare at all times. Only have 33k on this setup, but tow 13k at times, see sig

 

[Ncostello]

I spent some time with Bill Kondolay at Muncie and got to hold the mechanical pump and see its components. Its tough and very HD looking. Bill had it installed on his 04 so it is definately a working system. It is definately worthy of looking at and I'm sure it will make a big difference to some.

 

[rashwor]

Not to hyjack the thread, but the thought of a mechanical pump driven off the transmission pto drive crossed my mind the other day... . Something to do when my job gets axed in our current restructure.

 

[Ncostello]

Don't worry about hijacking this thread. 15W40 posted some info about an electronic controller for the lift pump and I welcomed the info. He posted that some time ago on page 1. Any suggestion is always a good one to me.

 

[rweis]

Now I am really courious to see if the bypass regulator will make a significant difference in the life of the lp. I think that is the only major difference between your and my system. LP on the frame, filtered, water seperated, AN-6 lines, full flow adapters, etc.



Time will tell, and BK probably has the better answer, mechanical.



The first gens did not have a fp problem right?, mechanical cam powered.



Interesting the mounting is on the oil pan bolts which EVERY CTD has. The pulley on the dampener (as I understand it) which EVERY CTD has. Now EVERY CTD can be mechanical lp, even the 3rd gens.



Will really reduce the number of TDR threads, lol.



Bob Weis

 

[Ncostello]

Yes... Bill K's truck was a 3rd gen and had the pump in full form... mounted and putting out the big fuel.



Tonight... I noticed I still get 15. 5psi on key up (without starting). Hmmm. But when started I'm getting 13 at idle. Makes me wonder if the bypass regulator on the VP is weak or not... I wouldn't see the 15. 5psi on key up if it opened up at 12 psi or so. Guess its easy enough to replace.



Something going on inside the VP perhaps that prevents full flow to the bypass regulator. Maybe once the VP is running... that changes the picture and allows a bad regulator show its ugly head.



A new one should cure that... and right soon too.



This is fun :{

 

[rweis]

Where is the bypass regulator on the VP44? and how do you change it? and confirm it is set at 12psi to open? if so how do guys see 15, 14, 16 (>12psi) psi on the lp psi guage?



Occasionally I see 12psi (bypass setting post lp) on the pre filter and 13 - 13. 5 on the post filter lp fp gauges. Obviously the filter is not generating psi. I attributed it to some sort of leak through from the VP higher psi system. Maybe the VP bypass? Generally hapens when I have gone from a moderate power setting to a low power setting (55mph to idle). When I put a demand back on the VP it stabilizes again at 12 psi (where the 4307M post lp bypass is set).



Bob Weis

 

[Edward]

I am glad to see other approaches to the lift pump problem. Competition is good for us all. However I do have some concerns about a mechanical pump off the crank. The first concern is that belts do fail just like electric motors. The second is adding greater complexity to the fuel system. The complexity comes in with needing the electric pump to prime the new mechanical pump and then having to regulate the discharge pressure of the mechanical pump which means a pressure regulator and additional return lines. The list of things that can go wrong is, getting longer instead of shorter. The third issue from what I am reading is that it keeps the original lift pump, which is the problem in the first place. Personally I would go for the Preporator because of its simplicity. Simplicity means less stuff to go wrong. The fact that the Preporator is a proven design with hundreds of thousands of miles on it in the over the road trucking industry is a definite plus too. Time will tell with the crank pump approach. It will be interesting to see how it works out.



Edward

 

[Sticks]

I can see the good in filtering the fuel before it get's to the pump, but you put your self right back to the beginning, the pump is having to work to get fed. Every other vehicle that I know of pushes the fuel through the filter, and it's only savior is the screen in the tank on the pickup tube.



I don't see the OEM LP's as being that delicate that they can't pass debris that can fit through the screen that they have mounted internally.



My relocation has been on since winter. OEM LP, 1/2 lines and straight through fittings (only one 90* elbow @ 1/2 inch). No extra filters. After the install, the idle psi was 15. 5 to 16. 5, highway driving at 80mph stayed at 14, and the lowest that I could pull it down was 13 at WOT. Now that it has warmed up, my idle is 14. 5, highway 13. 5 and I can pull it down to 10. 5, still plenty of pressure, and more than I was getting in the OEM location.



Providing that I still have the truck come winter, I will see if the pressures go back up (I understand that cold fuel gets higher psi).



If I do any changes at all, it will be to install a small oil cooler after the pump to help cool the fuel before it get's to the VP. I am still convinced that the VP does not like hot fluids to drink.

 

[Ncostello]

I don't ever recall seeing a belt fail on a vehicle. I even put 100,000 miles on my old F-150 and never changed the belts. If it does... $7 will get you another one... or you can carry a spare with you. I personally don't think the belt will be an issue. Do you ever worry about your trucks belt breaking and losing the water pump and alternator. That will surely leave you stranded too.



DTT's pump has one output port. The output line had a brass check valve going to the filter for one way flow. It then wyes I believe... and it had a brass ball/spring regulator valve going to the tank. Brass ball valves are commonly used in many hydraulic applications and I would consider them durable. They are not adjustable so have to choose the right one. Cummins uses the same idea on the VP44 return port. Except theirs looks like a big banjo bolt (which it is ) I don't think DTT's pump uses any kind of regulator like what you buy from Summit for a gasoline drag car. Theirs is much more simple.



Again... I'm no expert and would rather let DTT explain their setup. I can only describe what I saw and talked with them about.



I am also under the impression my Stanadyne pre-filter to the lift pump does not make it tough for the LP to pull fuel. Its very free flowing and represents very little resistance. The lift pump will prime a dry filter very fast. Stanadyne recommends their prefilter before any lift pump or transfer pump. But I do understand it is suction restriction in theory.



When I built my setup I ran the final stretch of hose into a bucket. Trust me... there was no lack of fuel supply. I remember thinking there was no way a VP was ever going to use a stream of fuel like what I had. Of course this was at basically zero psi as the hose end wasn't hooked up to any restriction, ie: free flow.

 

[Edward]

NEIL

It's good to hear they are using sound looking parts. However the point is still valid that the number of parts and gizmo's in a system is directly proportional to the opportunities for things to go wrong. Again every new approach is good for the industry, somebody some day will get it right and help us all out.



Edward