PDR cam w/ DD3 injector install results

[JStieger]

Is there a reason you wouldn't want to also have timing?

I ran a TST PMCR and, aside from the power, it was not a highlight of my truck ownership experience due to the codes and other weird crap going on with it. jwilliams3 runs the TST PMCR without any issues on his 04. 5 with the Scheid cam and has stated to me in PMs that the TST has complemented the cam quite well. If Edge comes out with the 305/555 juice or VA with its timing/duration box they're supposedly working on, then I'll definitely be going for those to try. If Edge or VA do not come up with these boxes then I'll stay with the simple pressure box. I have a used DD TTPM coming in the mail and it should give about 25 more HP over the VA, but I do like the VA in-cab adjustability. (I might even try one of Quad's new xzilleraider boxes, just for the in-cab adjustability, but reading about code issues has got me worried still).

When you say "stock" are you saying your current turbo spools up faster than your stock turbo did or the HTB2 with or without boxes?

The cam made my current turbo (HTB2/62/14 cm2 exhaust) spool up EARLIER in the rpms (=faster) than my previous HTB2/62/12 or even the stock turbo off the lot (note smaller 12 or 9 cm2 exhaust housings, respectively).



I NEVER ran the cam with the HTB2/62/12 or with the off-the-lot turbo. When I ran electronic boxes the HTB2/62/12 spooled the same as the off-the-lot turbo. So by "stock" I meant the HTB2/62/12. Sorry for the confusion.



As an aside, all the people I've corresponded with told/warned me that the cam change is subtle and I really would not notice it until I start driving the same roads that I do day-in and day-out. When I started noticing it was the post-installation test drive in city traffic where I usually get lazy in down-shifting when the rpms got low and just feathered the throttle instead. To my surprise it just started noticeably pulling without any lag! Then there was the drive home and now back in town on familiar roads where this is further highlighted. Curvy roads, with lots of speed changes and small hills, are where the cam change really, really shines IMO.

The 2mpg increase you have seen, do you feel is from the cam or injectors? Probably hard to say without trying one and then the other. I see both manufactures claim a 1-3 mpg improvement. ?

I feel the mileage improvement is definitely from the cam. I PMed Keith from DD and he was pretty upfront and said if I drove conservatively then up to 1 mpg; otherwise the mileage would be the same. I definitely do not drive conservatively! I'll have another mileage update by the end of the week (50/50 city/high speed NV backroad/interstate). IIRC Battering Ram on DTR did the cam change without injectors and got the same mileage improvements.

Do you feel your combo is good for towing?

I haven't towed with this yet, nor am I a heavy tower if I did (car trailer with jeep that's almost rebuilt), but with the EGT, mileage, and lower rpm performance then I would imagine so. I may or may not turn down the pressure box, though, depending on conditions. If someone is in this area and wants to hook up a heavy bumper pull trailer then I'll be all for it for a test!

Last. . I see that DD has posted this statement on their site:



Quote:

Injector applications require the use of one of the Edge modules



Why do you suppose that is? Since your running the adjustable VA I would wonder what happens to drivability and mpg's if you were to turn it off?

I think that is for the boost fooling from these modules. I drove around a bit with the VA off, i. e. boost fooling mode only, and the drivability/power delivery is still there (obviously "X" HP less). I was actually thinking of running the VA off for a tank, but having the power without having to watch the gauges a lot is sure relaxing and enjoyable!



A word on how the injectors feel with the pressure box off. The injectors feel like 100 HP from electronic boxes, but the power delivery is smoother with no surging type feelings (like in cruise control) and "foot position" on the throttle feels similar. I had a hard time understanding this concept from what I researched in the 1st and 2nd gen forums, until I experienced it. Maybe previous 1st/2nd gen owners can expand on this?



Also, at sea level with DD3 injectors: VA off = no smoke; VA 100% = minimal haze then quickly clears up.



At 5,000-6,000 ft with DD3 injectors: VA off = minimal haze then quickly clears up; VA 100% = about 2 second dark black cloud "puff" then clears up quickly.



Note that at 5,000 ft WITHOUT the injectors and WITH the VA = 100% I would get a minimal haze, which quickly cleared up, just to put things in perspective.



The smoke with DD3 injectors and VA = 100% is not even close to being like how the Bully Dog Pup was on Performance and Extreme. The BDDL was a smoke spewin' box!



Hope this answers all your questions - I just spent 1. 5 hours on this response trying to pick the right words without trying to create more questions :-laf !!

 

[DSpencer]

Thanks JStieger for all your information. This has been the best cam thread I can remember.

 

[Rams-n-Hogs]

The smoke with DD3 injectors and VA = 100% is not even close to being like how the Bully Dog Pup was on Performance and Extreme. The BDDL was a smoke spewin' box!

Wow, that's interesting. All I get is a quick puff out of mine, on extreme. Nothing on tow, or performance.



Jim

 

[Matt400]

Hope this answers all your questions - I just spent 1. 5 hours on this response trying to pick the right words without trying to create more questions :-laf !!

Thanks a bunch for taking time.

I found it interesting that you feel the HTB2/62/14 cm2 spools faster than a stock truck now with those mods.



Good time to do injectors at the cam replacement but for those running a stock turbo looks like injector selection may also warrant a turbo change. .

 

[rhino_50]

Thanks for all the great info. Sounds like you did your homework, and is paying off for you. Good luck with the rest of your test and keep us posted. Thanks Rhino50

 

[DSpencer]

Good time to do injectors at the cam replacement but for those running a stock turbo looks like injector selection may also warrant a turbo change. .

Not to mention clutch

 

[JStieger]

Here's some interesting reading that helped me understand the merits of a cam swap. If the link doesn't work, do a search with "cam" and "Joseph Donnelly" as the key word and user name, respectively, under "all open forums". Then you'll have more than enough info to read about the development and use of the DD cam, then wander off and search users posts that run the PDR cam, etc. The cam discussions sometimes almost turn out like an auto transmission or oil thread :-{} !!



https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/search.php?searchid=584385

Wow, that's interesting. All I get is a quick puff out of mine, on extreme. Nothing on tow, or performance.



Jim

Jim- when I had version 1. 0 it barely smoked at all with aftermarket turbo. I stopped off a Bully Dog and had them upgrade straight to version 1. 5 a few months ago and it was a night and day difference (literally! :-laf ).

 

[Evan A. Beck]

Looked at a few '04 and '05 trucks this past week to see if the front body crossmember had been changed to allow easier cam R&R. As far as I can tell, it is the same one used in the '03 models. Looks like it is installed the exact same way, and cannot be removed easily.

 

[rbattelle]

Can someone snap a pic of this cross member? If it's the one I'm picturing I swear it's bolted in place on my truck.



I think I'm confused...



-Ryan

 

[Matt400]

Yes Ryan. . it does appear to be bolted in place however if you pulled those bolts you still can't get it out because it is slid into the outer pieces.

 

[rbattelle]

Yes Ryan. . it does appear to be bolted in place however if you pulled those bolts you still can't get it out because it is slid into the outer pieces.

Ah HA! Those sneaky Dodge engineers.



-Ryan

 

[Matt400]

As far as tappetts go Piers said it was OK to use the stock ones too on mine since the 3rd gens metallurgy were different than previous generations.

Interesting. . I have been in touch with Mark at PDR and he said they recommend tappets. I have had a few emails because I would like to try one but nothing available yet.

How did you get yours anyway... must have been an experimental?

 

[JStieger]

Interesting. . I have been in touch with Mark at PDR and he said they recommend tappets. I have had a few emails because I would like to try one but nothing available yet.

How did you get yours anyway... must have been an experimental?

Matt-



Well I have the short story version and the long story version. First the long version. After some research I started emailing Piers directly late March to which the initial reply was "still in testing... few more weeks". Then I saw Battering Ram's results in early April and got really excited so another email went to Piers. Then I called Dyno-Mite Diesel up (late April) and started discussing the cam, injectors, turbos, etc and they contacted Piers directly for details and got a committment of 6 weeks from Piers due to PDR waiting for cam blanks to come in (ordered back in January). Lenny then requested to put his name on the list for the 3rd gen cam (I think we were #2 or #3) and then Lenny told me to call him back at 4 weeks to remind him. So at 3 weeks and 6. 25 days I called Lenny back and blanks just came in! Of course I already knew this because I emailed Piers the day before. So between the long weekend in Canada, the Memorial Day weekend, and when I was allowed to take vacation from work, the cam was ground and was delivered to DDP the day I showed up there for the install.



The short version is pester, pester, pester! :-laf Also, I think RankRam and a buddy in town were the only persons I told about my cam quest back in April. They are great for keeping secrets



When I first posted this thread I forwarded it to PDR and Piers replied that he wanted a mileage update. (Battering Ram's truck is '04. 5 HO, but mine is an '03 HO). Hey, it just dawned on me, your truck could be the '03 SO cam tester...



Anyhow, I've almost ran 2 more tanks through at +5,000' elevation so I'll be giving a mileage update, with driving habits :-laf , by the end of the week. Unfortunately, I haven't towed anything yet. I hope to in about 2-3 weeks when I get my '45 jeep restomod finished. Still need to fix the hood, paint hood and fenders, and redo seat frames...



As far as the tappets go when Lenny contacted Piers he was told no new tappets required. Lenny initially wanted to do them based on his 1st and 2nd gen experiences with cam swaps, but in the end we didn't so them. Note that in jwilliams3's post earlier in this thread the folks at Scheid didn't do new tappets either. If the Scheid guys and Piers say no new tappets (in the context of low mileage motors of course) then I have no worries about it. I have full confidence in their abilities and recommendations.



Hope this makes things a bit clearer than mud!

 

[Matt400]

Hey, it just dawned on me, your truck could be the '03 SO cam tester...

Yes, Mark told me he doesn't believe they have any cams in a CA SO.

If the Scheid guys and Piers say no new tappets (in the context of low mileage motors of course) then I have no worries about it.

I have 30k on mine, don't know if thats considered low but Mark did say new tappets are recommended, he didn't ask about my miles.



It may have do with them being new cams vs regrinds.

 

[jwilliams3]

Side note:

Mine was a re-grind from Scheids. A friend installed the Cam. Kent Crowder (Owner and maker of the most Powerful Cummins B around) told me the original tappets would be fine.

I think mileage was somewhere around 17k at the time.



I still love the Cam, I would do it again in a heartbeat.

 

[Matt400]

I see tappet replacement is a little more tricky but very doable with the Miller 8502 tool.

Just need some patience doing those.

I would like to give the PDR cam a go but can't buy one due to no cam blanks in stock, plus they said they were not available to the general public yet.

PDR is doing a new grind that can't be achieved with a regrind. . interesting, wonder what they are going for- lift, duration or overlap changes??



The Schied regrind cam is in stock, tempting.

 

[JStieger]

The Schied regrind cam is in stock, tempting.

Matt-



If this is any consolation - when I was looking for a cam, neither the Scheid or PDR (obviously) were in stock! Either way I think you cannot go wrong. BTW my truck had ~49K miles when the cam was installed.



I would be interested to see how the cam does on an automatic truck since Battering Ram's IIRC, Justin's, and mine are 6-speeds.



I will admit that my knowledge and terminology understanding on internal engine science is weak, but you seem pretty well-versed so I was wondering if you had any good references on camshaft design and selection? My knowledge is limited to reading the Summit catalog or reading somewhat biased manufacturer's articles in hot rod magazines!

 

[TCluff]

i would like to know what the lobe separation, lobe lift and lobe duration of the stock cam are compared to the regrounds, based on this u could have a shop build or regrind your cam, change cam timing, and set it up for what u are going to do with it

 

[JStieger]

i would like to know what the lobe separation, lobe lift and lobe duration of the stock cam are compared to the regrounds, based on this u could have a shop build or regrind your cam, change cam timing, and set it up for what u are going to do with it

Going to Bully Dog Dog Days this July 9th to dyno and pull?

 

[nascar mark]

Matt,



I took for granted your truck had some miles on it. 30,000 should not be a problem using your stock lifters. 45,000-50,000 I would be changing them out. My personal prefrence that is.



Good news is the cam blanks came in yesterday. We will soon have new cams ready for the public consumption.



Give us a week or two and we should have them ready.