Competition PDR's Blower on 5.9

[CRoth - BD-Power]

Actually, a ProCharger would be the worst route to take in a combo set up like that.



You'd be back to square one. Lag. A ProCharger (centrifigal) shines in a high rpm application, and for a belt driven supercharger displays a surprising amount of boost lag.



No, Piers has got it right. A Roots type (lobes) is what you want, boost right off idle... .



... but a Lyshom compressor (screws) would rule! Real low rpm boost and cool air being pushed.



Go with a Whipple.

Gearing determines lag, so infact you can have a procharger spool just as quickly as a roots. Plus the roots are so inefficient compared to the standard turbos out there. Plus piping for an intercooler and and a blower bypass can be a little difficult due to the fact the blower mounts to the head. For all you people that think a blower will reduce EGTs you should more concern about piston crown temperature, with a blower even 50% efficient at 25psi your inlet temperatures with out an intercooler would be well over 400°F. That's a far cry from the 150°F from our stock setup.



If you want to compare racing blowers to racing turbos again no comparison, racing turbos have ceramic wheels with over 85% efficiency. Plus with variable vanes on the turbine side AND variable throttling on the compressor inlet.



Screws style blowers are really nice but then again you'll need pressure relief valve to dump all the pressure of throttle, which is fairly easy to do.



COMP461, turbos are basically parasitic free as long as your inlet pressure is higher than the exhaust. NHRA has allowed turbos in some classes this year, after a slight learning curve watch all the times drop.



You think that Top Fuel cars are a proven example of why blowers work? Wrong, don't get me wrong their is a lot technology in drag racing, but they are still governed by a lot of rules. For example 2 valve heads?? Take a look at the class where their is no forced induction and still use nitro. Its the fuel that makes all the power. Ratio 1. 7-1



Take for example F1 back in the days when turbos were allowed you had a small cast iron block and head 1. 5L 4 cylinder engine that produce 1500HP. Spool up is obviously a huge concern in F1 and they worked around it pretty well.



You don't see very many superchargers on the road racing cars, why is that?? hmmmm

 

[Will24]

Not sure if this was mentioned anywhere else in the thread, but, yes, a top fuel car's blower is quite parasitic, drawing nearly 600hp from the engine.



-Will

 

[biggy238]

I was going to ask two days ago(my computer died mid-post) about a centrifugal charger with the correct pulleys and internal gearing to produce the 8psi at idle (or 1000rpm) and plumb it directly into a HUGE single as if it were one of a twin. We're not talking about a large rpm band here, which is mostly why blowers are in-efficient anyway isn't it? They have a sweet spot like anything else. Mount the centrifugal charger under the altenator (ditch ac. . like you would have it anyway for your various ambitions) And plumb it on one belt. I've always liked the idea of a clutch after having seen mad max as a kid.



I don't think this thing is as viable as I wish it were, but It would be sweet on a street truck for getting off the line. I understand the parasitic power loss, but we're talking about putting these 1000lb++ motors in TRUCKS and trying to make them go fast. Just take things in context.



What do you use to take the heat out of a system like that anyway? I would imagine that at some point and pressure you aren't moving quickly enough for an air to air intercooler to get it done. Any thoughts??

 

[Tcolesanti]

I don't think this thing is as viable as I wish it were, but It would be sweet on a street truck for getting off the line. I understand the parasitic power loss, but we're talking about putting these 1000lb++ motors in TRUCKS and trying to make them go fast. Just take things in context.

Good point. :-laf

 

[ThrottleJockey]

600 hp is parasitic drag?

The dang things put out 8000 hp! The exhaust is coming out of the cylinders so hard the cars use it as DOWNFORCE! That ain't exhaust anymore. That's THRUST! Superchargers make more power than they use. Oh yeah, a turbo is more efficient and better suited for diesels, but we're just talking about that instant boost thing, you know, mate it with your favorite big single. Compounding boost is where it's at!



There has GOT to be something there. I wouldn't be so quick to give up on superchargers just yet..... The top fuel guys have the budget and the technology at their disposal and they STILL love the ol'e roots blower.



Christian,



I hear you, but what if you used that gearing for the Whipple Lyshom Screw?



I saw a new ProCharger style blower that uses a gearbox. I wonder how those light off?





Sweet, right?

 

[Sled Puller]

For reference:



In 1986, SCS GEARBOX, INC. built the first successful CNC Billet GMC ROOTS Supercharger Impeller improving upon the original GMC Rotor. It also made it possible to produce 10-71 to 14-71 blowers with a much stronger and more efficient rotor impeller. By 1988, SCS increased the helix angle, producing the First High Helix Supercharger Rotors! By 1990, SCS produced the First complete Billet Supercharger without any Detroit/GMC Diesel parts being used. The blower cases are built on a designated 4-axis CNC mill. With the completion of these blowers, a dyno test stand was built to test blower boost and horsepower consumption comparisons.





)))))At the time, the leading drag racing crew chiefs did not believe our results, that 14-71 Blowers typically consumed over 1100 H. P. to produce 36 lbs. of manifold pressure. ((((((((



SCS developed the front discharge (now somewhat copied and called the Retro Fit by other manufacturers) from the testing and other Intake and Case Changes.

))))))Horsepower consumption was cut to below 600 H P at 36 lbs. and increasing manifold pressures to the mid 40's. (((((

 

[RacinDuallie]

An 8000 H. P. T/f Hemi engine is inefficent??? Tell that to the guys that shoe them to 330+ M. P. H. Those inefficent engines will take you down the 1/4 mile faster than Shed Picker could sqeeze out a fart. :-laf I guess if it aint hooked to a shed, then sheddy will throw out all the negativity he can muster..... Drag racing rules. remember sheddy speed kills- play it safe - go pull a shed.







:-laf :-laf

 

[Sled Puller]

I think a TF Hemi is about as far from efficient as you can get.



Efficient power, in racing, would be a CART or Formula 1 engine for example.

I'm sure there are better examples.



If those statements seem negative to you, I apologize from the bottom of my black heart, and I mean that in the nicest way possible.

 

[RacinDuallie]

The Hemi cylinder head is one of THE Most efficient cylinder heads ever made? Have you ever even seen the Hemisphereical combustion chamber? overall layout of ports- valve location, plug location?? These heads are THE HEADS to use in racing. Notice how you dont see any chebby or furd engines in top fuel? They just cant come close to the level of a Hemi.....

Sorry to get off the subject here- but I don't see how anyone can call the most efficient cylinder head- with a 14. 71 roots style blower force feeding it even more air- as an inefficient motor. . gee a roughly 600 h. p. loss when your making 8000+ h. p. seems like a fair trade off. Dont see any other engine used in racing ANYWHERE- in this H. P. range.





The Mopar in my blood had to speak fellas..... :-laf :-laf

 

[Sled Puller]

Kind of jump around, don't you?

We went from a TF ENGINE is the most inefficient power maker, to 'It has to be efficient, because it has a Hemi head. "



Answer me this, how much energy does it WASTE to make 8000 HP, and go 330 MPH?



Maybe we should define efficiency, before the discussin goes any farther?

 

[RacinDuallie]

I think a TF Hemi is about as far from efficient as you can get.



Efficient power, in racing, would be a CART or Formula 1 engine for example.









If you can make an engine pump out 8000+ H. P. Do you call it inefficient?

I dont. Just think about how much Fuel and Air is being pumped through these TOP FUEL engines in just one pass. If they are INefficient then just explain to me shedwick how all that fuel and air EFFICIENTLY passes through that as you call it Inefficient engine????

 

[supersonic]

I'll just put it that it's amazing what they get out of 'em for what they got to work with. Gotta agree with that?

 

[Sled Puller]

[

If you can make an engine pump out 8000+ H. P. Do you call it inefficient?

I??

YES. I JUST DID, 3 TIMES.



You win, its efficent.

 

[RacinDuallie]

8000+ H. P.

Uses the exhaust for additional downforce.

The ability to go from 0 to 330+ M. P. H. in as little as 4 seconds

Flows more air and fuel than ANY internal combustion engine EVER.



AHH YES THE TOP FUEL HEMI IS KING IN THE WORLD OF SPEED... .

 

[justinp20012500]

Just think about how much Fuel and Air is being pumped through these TOP FUEL engines in just one pass.

3000 CFM and 1-1/2 gallons of nitro methane per second



I would have to agree that the motors are inefficient to a certain degree.



They only last one run, and they only do an adequate job at that.







Justin

 

[JoshPeters]

OK OK OK... . Who said this is a MASSIVE blower from a Top Fuel car? If they have SO much drag and take away SO much horsepower... Why do the 3800 GM's use them? Why do the Mustangs and Lightnings use them? Who said this thing is a HP Pig? How about some of the more Efficient chargers out there?



From what I can see you guys are trying to compair the biggist supercharger out there. Lets put Ole Sleddys Train Turbo in the bed and talk about trying to spool that up and the energy it takes.



Come on Guys... . you are WAY more intelligent than what I'm seeing right now.



Josh

 

[COMP461]

While the top fuel motor is king of power, it is really not very efficient in the amount of power it produces for the amount of fuel introduced in to the intake.



First the fuel is almost a mono propellant, meaning it has its own oxygen, and will almost run with very little air, case in point an A/Fuel motor has no blower and is the king of the Top alcohol dragster, these motors make around 4500 hp on nitro alone. I believe that you will see a A/fuel car go in to the 4 second range this year, either Ashley ‘Force, or the other Darin and Meadows car. I believe that a nitro motor is really an infinite hp motor, if you can load it will keep making more power, until one of three things happen, one its breaks traction and the loads goes away and you lose power, second it rotates the earth and runs a record time, or three, it launches the cylinder head, with part of the block and cam attached to it in to the stands, I was there wrenching on that car in Houston in 1999 when that happen. as to burning the fuel, in a top fuel motor the amount of fuel is staggering in that the fuel pump takes almost 500 hp in it self to turn, the amount ingested in the motor on the typical 4. 4 second pass is about 11 gallons , out of the total 20 gallons loaded on to the nose as ballast. Most of this fuel is used to cool the combustion chamber, and very little is really burned , the loud roar of a fuel motor is the unburned fuel , and partly the fact that the cylinder is still pushing down on the piston when the exhaust valve opens .



Back to blowers a highly efficient blower would more then meet the air requirements of the diesels drag racing engine up to around 1200 hp , the boost numbers we are use to are really deceiving , and are a factor of overcoming drive pressure , the super chargers of today are very much more efficient to any thing of the past , the dyno test Sled Puller was referring to were a every week accordance on most top fuel teams trying for consistent , and the new blower were very much an improvements , but the blowers the T/AD guys were allowed to use were even better , I watched them build stupid amounts of boost compared to a fuel blower , and take half the power to turn , . around 250 to 300 hp , now this is not the amount of blower a 1200 hp diesel needs , but it might work on a tractor type motor , with the exception , of you don’t need a instantaneous type boost there. The new highly efficient centrifugal type, super chargers are coming of age, and would make the air need and only cost about 75 hp to turn. The intake charge air would only be heated about 300 degrees, this is nothing to cool down with a good air to water intercooler , maybe it will work , and maybe it wont , but I for one am going to try ,

 

[CumminsAholic]

Do any of you guys remember the feller on EBAY that was selling some mysterey sticks, and claiming he had a whipple between his turbo's???

I remember... he sold the "nozzles". He was from Texas... I think he still sells them on ebay. Yup, he told me too that he has a whipple on his truck... maybe he was on to something?? I thought about it a long time ago, but I don't have the resourses, funds or time to try it. They way I see it is the guys trying it are the ones who want to be on top... maybe it won't work, but what if it does?

Corey

 

[RonA]

Once again PDR shows pictures of a setup they have in real life and a bunch of people who have keyboards instead of ideas fine tune and nit-pick.

 

[Sled Puller]

Real life?

So far, all we have seen is a crappy little picture. No drag race, no sled pull, not even a lousy dyno run.



It reminds me of a triple turbo, triple intercooled, triply drugged,monster about a year ago... ... . did that truck ever run?



However, it is fantastic PR, for PDR.



Sorry about discussing ideas here, in the discussin forum. I guess we should rename it, "Pom-Pom forum"?



Back patting only!!!!



Did you ever think, that maybe they hit a wall with it, and stuck a picture up, hoping to fish for information and fresh ideas?