Performance Box -VS- Injectors

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I'm having a hard time deciding whether to install my recently purchased 10 level BD X Power/TST PM3 (standard version) or upgrade my Bosch 275 injectors to DD Stage 3 injectors. [and yes, I have seen the wwcd2 group purchase for the Bullydog extrude honed injectors]. I'm interested in the Diesel Dynamics Stage 3 injectors as I already know what I can expect in the way of smoke from their latest versions (which is very acceptable to me). As some of you already know about me, I'm sick and tired of buying sh*t that dioesn't work as claimed/advertised! So this decision is going to be final! #ad
PM3 or DD3s? I like the ability of being able to turn the PM3 on and off as well as tailor the power level to my demands HOWEVER, injector upgrades seem to be MUCH easier on the VP44 injection pump (keep in mind I have a '98. 5 with the original injection pump). I'm trying to weigh the cost of ownership of both..... purchase the DD3s and be a happy man, or install the PM3 (paid for) and be poised and ready to fork out another $1700. for another VP44 (but be an ecstatic man if I don't grenade the VP44)?

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'98. 5 2500 QC 4x4 Sport, Glasstite Vision II, 285 BFG A/Ts on M/T Challengers, Warn 4X Boards, Mopar fender flares & tow hooks, NW Custom s/s-rubber mud flaps, Mag-Hytec diff. cover & trans. pan, Edelbrock IAS shocks, Reese Titan V hitch, VDO Vision gauges, Dynamat, '00 Sport grille and headlights/PIAA Super White bulbs, PIAA Dual Sport 900 aux. lights, BD exh. brake and TorqLoc, Amsoil Dual Remote Bypass, Optima Yellow Tops, Bosch 275s, 10 level BD/TST X Power/PM3 (not installed yet), Aeroquip AQP braided s/s fuel hoses, Banks High Ram intake manifold (not installed yet... ya I know, I'll have to eat my words) and 14 cm2 turbine housing/Big Head wastegate actuator, ATS 3-piece exh. man. , Banks 4" dia. s/s exh. sys. , BD V10/Cummins hybrid TC & valve body, BD trans. front pump & PressureLoc, Air Bulldog induction hood (with NACA ducts), plus MANY other trick modifications

Recycle Bin: Prime-Loc fuel filter relocation kit (JUNK!), VA CPC (upgraded to 10 level PM3), '00 Dodge/Cummins valve cover (changed my mind... stay tuned)

 

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<font color=blue> Why not do both? Best of both worlds. Or why not just keep the 275's and add the PowerMax? Then you almost have the best of both worlds?

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• Eric D. Howard - #ad
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  - TDR Member since April 8th, 2000, Rancho 9000 shocks
• 2001 Dodge Ram 2500 HD 4x4 SLT Auto Reg cab Cummins Turbo Diesel 4. 10 gear ratio LT265/75R/16 tires
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[This message has been edited by KatDiesel (edited 11-18-2000). ]

 

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Kat, it's simply this; the addition of a perf. box (other than a VA CPC or Edge EZ) on a '98. 5 or '99 24v has the distinct possibility (however remote. . or not?) of grenading the VP44. And since I'm my own warranty station, I would have to "possibly" factor in a replacement VP44. That's really the only thing clouding my decision. I have NEVER heard where the addition of a set of injectors (even the "Big Kahuna" DD3s) have ever grenaded the VP44. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Just looking for opinions. Thanks Kat.

 

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<font color=blue>Mark Kitchell has had the PowerMax&sup2; and DDIII's for a while, not sure exactly how long. Hes got a 98. 5 truck. I do believe he took out his DDIII's for plow season tho not sure I haven't talked to him in a while.

If ya fry the pump..... just replace it with a better one, thats one way to look at it.

If your truly concerned with it, i would sell your PowerMax and put in DDIII's. Because if you don't you'll always "wonder" if you made the right choice. Put in the Injectors and be happy... ... ... .

My 2&cent;

 

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Injectors !!!!!!!!!! #ad

Injectors !!!!!!!!!! #ad

Injectors !!!!!!!!!! #ad

Upgraded fuel lines too !!!! with either !!!!
gotta keep it cool #ad

My DD2's and V M's fuel line upgrade are in transit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[This message has been edited by JNutter (edited 11-18-2000). ]

 

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John, DD3's and HX 40 16cm turbo, you already have the 4" exhaust. Good, clean, safe mechanical HP. You should even see your EGT's go down #ad
.

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2001. 5 2500 QC, SLT+, ETH/DEE, 4x4, 3. 54 LSD, BFG 295's, Stan's Headers 4" exhaust
Ram Pics

 

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JNutter, I already have a set of Aeroquip -06 AN fuel hoses from Vaughn MacKenzie.

Bill (and Kat), I don't want (or really need) the HX40 Super Turbo for two reasons: 1) the down pipe is constructed of aluminized steel... . my Banks 4" exhaust system is made of stainless steel #ad
... just can't bring myself to do it, and 2) the omission of the silencer ring #ad
#ad
... ... ..... lets not forget my exhaust brake... I'd have to go to a BD remote mount. Hmmmm.

... besides, I already have the Banks 14 cm2 turbune housing.

Thanks for the input everyone. #ad


[This message has been edited by John (edited 11-19-2000). ]

 

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Of course the most "natural" way to get more power would be to put in the biggest injectors you can,rather than forcing your questionable pump to work harder.
True,it would be nice to have the 'switch off' feature that the PM3 has when you don't need the extra juice,but your Ram with an auto trans and DDIII's would be a piece of cake to drive around in the wet/cold weather than my DDII's with and manual trans.

-Mike

 

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John... I would go with the biggest available injectors that smoke to the level you are comfy with, then install the PM3. You can keep the switch on the PM3 in the OFF, until you need just a "touch" more. The switchable power is a nice to have... use it when ya want.
Thought: If you are concerned about your vp44, wouldn't you rather have it go T. U. under test conditions, near home, than somewhere on the road... say Ennis, MT. ? Whether or not you install the PM3, is it not a concern for you now, due to the fuel pressure?
Either way you go, if the pump goes out, give me a call and I will come get ya... if the punk ever brings my trailer back!

Two weeks and counting... .

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Rob Hanson
1999 "Big Red", 3500 SLT QC 4X4 6 spd, 4. 10 LSD, Braided SS fuel lines, Mag-Hytec Rear Cover, Cummins E-Brake, Blue Box, DD3 Injectors, Banks High Ram and 14cm Wastegated Turbo, All-steel Cowl Induction Hood, Cummins RED Valve Cover, Rhino, Rosewood Kit, Scotty System, SportComp Gauges, TorkLift SuperHitch, Tekonsha Brake Controller, Rear Flood lights, Cobra CB, DeeZee Running Boards, BD 2WD Low kit, Air Lift bags and a Geno's "I tromped a Ford" decal. Member of BOMB! (WW NW Chapter)

MyPics.com (pics updated 10/14/00)

I'd rather be... .
Cummin than Strokin.

 

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John, I am running the original Powermax (275/660 according to TST) with 275 injectors. I've had the powermax on my '98. 5 for 30,000 miles (58,000 on the truck now) and I just added the 275hp injectors 5,000 miles ago. I also had a bad lift pump for 24,000 of those miles which I found when I added my fuel pressure gauge. I knew the lift pump was bad in hindsight because when Cummins MI put my prime-loc on they couldn't get the system primed (took an hour and a half to get the truck restarted! YIKES). So my VP44 has been working overtime for the entire time. Given all the lift pump problems (I'm on my third now) I think that many of the VP44 failures have been caused by the lift pumps. Now there is some data on here that the prime-loc also causes low fuel pressures - I'll have my data on that within the week. Adding the injectors really smoothed out the engine, seems like the pump isn't working as hard. I decided to put the injectors in based on a long Q&A session with the pump techs at Dave's Diesel in Muncie, IN. They said that the boxes do raise your injection pump pressures but that if you go to larger injectors (275's were their rcommendation) that the pressures are lowered significantly. My truck dyno'd at 313 hp/763 ft/lbs at the rear wheels with both the box and injectors. I really like having the option to turn the box on or off depending on road conditions. Talking with Mark Chapple he says that all of the VP44 pumps that he's seen fail have not been when they were on the throttle - it was when they let off, usually after a long hill climb and just over the top they let off and that's when it happens. According to him there is a shaft that siezes because when you lift it's starved for fuel. I've talked with Mark quite a bit on the phone and have been very impressed with the level of R&D that he puts into his stuff and his knowledge. Just my $. 02



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-Steve St. Laurent - President of the Great Lakes TDR
'98 QC LB (CMNSPWR), 4x4, ISB, 5sp, 4. 10 LSD, TST Powermax, 275hp RV injectors, SW fuel pressure gauge, BD exhaust brake, Isspro turbo temp monitor, front Draw-Tite receiver, rear Draw-Tite class V receiver, BFG 285/75R16 AT KO's, (all the common stuff clipped)

 

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I almost meant to post that you can get reman'd pumps for around $1250 - Scott1 has the source.

-Steve

 

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John, if you were to put in Stage II or IIIs you won't lose any driveability over the 275hp injectors (ie, increase light throttle power and make it hard to drive the truck in wet or snow). That is my assumption from what I've seen posted, and after driving Nowel's truck. Then, if you want to supplement the injectors, put on your PM or VA or whatever.

If you want to jump up to DD injectors for the sake of reducing stress on your injection pump, I don't think you are going to gain much over your RV injectors. This is just my opinion, but the orfici (orfices??) on the DDIIIs probably are not a lot larger than the RVs, at least it is probably a lot less of a jump than going form stockers to RVs, expecially on the auto. With that arguement, I'd say just throw on the PowerMax for now and see how things go. If the VP44 holds up, and you are happy with the power and your mileage is maintained, then you would have saved your injector $$. But then since you haven't installed your PM yet and have the option of a full refund, the debate continues. . . #ad


From what I've heard, DD continues R&D and their latest injector offerings are probably a significant step above the RVs that you now have. Given that you are a stickler for quality, I would get the DDs. I think they've been out long enough to establish a decent track record. There is a good chance I will also go the DD route next year once I get some mileage out of my RV's--and the BOMBing virus becomes more deeply integrated with my DNA!!

Vaughn

 

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Originally posted by Rob Hanson:
... say Ennis, MT. ?

<font color=blue>Or how bout Ennis, Texas?? #ad
Couldn't resist... . its where I was born.

 

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Texas? Is that in the United States? #ad
Just kidding. You know us Northwestern guys... anything south of the Columbia River is considered the deep South. #ad
#ad


Vaughn, I am no longer in possession of my VA CPC. I really liked the VA however, I like the on/off switch feature of most of the other boxes. Changing to DD3s (from my Bosch 275s and VA CPC) would only add in the neighborhood of 10-20 BHP over the previous combination. I'm wondering, since DD made their Stage 3s more on the smokeless side... did that also reduce their HP claim/rating of 100 BHP? If it did, the DD3s could be on even footing with the 275/VA combination.

It sure is becoming hard to keep a handle on what all the products will add... . claimed and real world... especially with the evolution of all the new products on the market.

Steve, Piers told me the same thing Mark (Chapple) told you... the injector pumps fail when you let off the trottle due to fuel starvation. He recommended I drill out the banjo bolts until I told him I had already taken a proactive approach with the addition of Vaughn's (Aeroquip) fuel hoses. #ad


..... still not sure how I'm going to proceed... . like the on/off switch idea of a box... . also like the idea of the injectors imposing less stress on the injection pump. #ad


I GOT IT! I'LL FLIP A COIN... one of those trick coins that have the same image on both sides... in my case "tails". I'm sure I'm going to feel I got the tail end which ever way I go. #ad

 

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Well, I made a decision... . finally! #ad
I ordered a set of DD3s today. #ad


That means that I'm going to sell the 10 level BD X Power/TST PM3... which has never been installed. The kit is COMPLETE and in absolutely NEW condition. Any interested parties wanting to make an offer can e-mail me.

I would like to thank all respondents for their input and a special thank you to my technical guidance counselor. Thanks eh. #ad


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John Treibel
'98. 5 2500 QC 4x4 Sport, Glasstite Vision II, 285 BFG A/Ts on M/T Challengers, Warn 4X Boards, Mopar fender flares & tow hooks, NW Custom s/s-rubber mud flaps, Mag-Hytec diff. cover & trans. pan, Edelbrock IAS shocks, Reese Titan V hitch, VDO Vision gauges, Dynamat, '00 Sport grille and headlights/PIAA Super White bulbs, PIAA Dual Sport 900 aux. lights, BD exh. brake and TorqLoc, Amsoil Dual Remote Bypass, Optima Yellow Tops, DD3s (not installed yet) & Boost Module, Aeroquip AQP braided s/s fuel hoses, Banks High-Ram intake manifold (not installed yet... ya I know, I'll have to eat my words) and 14 cm2 turbine housing/Big Head wastegate actuator, ATS 3-piece exh. man. , Banks 4" dia. s/s exh. sys. , BD V10/Cummins hybrid TC & valve body, BD trans. front pump & PressureLoc, Air Bulldog induction hood (with NACA ducts), plus MANY other trick modifications

Recycle Bin: Prime-Loc fuel filter relocation kit (JUNK!), VA CPC (upgrading to DD3s), '00 Dodge/Cummins valve cover (changed my mind... stay tuned)

[This message has been edited by John (edited 11-20-2000). ]

 

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I totally understand where you are comin from on the standpoint of the pumps. I've got a friend who went thru two pumps on his early 99. He junked it the first time with the original TST box, the next time he was runnin the BD adjustable box on it and it went a day after he put it on. I also agree with Kat by sayin you should try the best of both worlds. I am runnin a JVD and a set of Dave Mitchell's big injectors and haven't had a problem yet. You just need to decide how much smoke ya want. . lol. I LOVE SMOKE !!!. Good luck to you with your DD3's.

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• 2001 Cummins, Black, QC, SWB, Agate Leather, Every Option Available
• 3:55's, Auto, 4x4, 2. 5" Skyjacker, 33x12. 50 BFG Mudders on 16. 5x9. 75 Weld Super Singles
• JVD Torque Enhancer, Big 425 hp Injectors, Boost Module, HX35 w/12cm housing non-wastegated, High Stall Pro Torque Convertor, Performance Valve Body, Silencer Ring removed
• No Muffler, No Resonator, Isspro Boost/Pyrometer Guages mounted on A-pillar
• Dee Zee Diamond Plate Toolbox, Bed Rails, Tailgate Protector, Chrome Rocker Panels, 4" Chrome Tip
• Cobra 29 Sound Tracker Night Watch CB

 

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You go John! Rob and Mike will have to start whipping out the plastic if they hope keep up #ad
Are your going to run boxless, at least for a while? I assume you ordered DD's boost module.

You better not pull an Evan Beck with those Stage IIIs. Make Injector Installation #1 on that Project List of yours #ad
. Speaking of projects, did you install the ATS manifold yet???

Vaughn

 

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Hey Vaughn, I've had DD's Boost Module installed since late February. And no, I will be going boxless... my heavy-hittin' 6-speed buds' are just too much for me. Quick Kat, raise a white flag up for me. LOL

Regarding the injectors, I'm not going to pull an Evan, I had DD send them UPS Second Day Air so they would arrive in time for the long weekend. This will be the fastest turnaround for me (receipt of parts -VS- installation)... ever! #ad
#ad


I'm working on the ATS manifold now. I'm gasket matching the ports. Next, I will have the same place Dave Perea used on his ATS manifold apply the same finish to mine, ditto for the Banks 14 cm2 turbine housing. Woohoo!

BTW, Evan installed his DD3s this past Saturday. Today he borrowed my old VA CPC from The PowerShop to try out before they sent it back. Rob and I are waiting by the phones... just in case the punk is thrown in the pokie for unlawful vehicular activities. #ad
#ad
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[This message has been edited by John (edited 11-21-2000). ]

 

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My understanding is the VA puts no additional strain on the fuel pump.
Big A

 

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I've got the 275's, PM3(10 level),AND Holley fuel pump. I've tested my own situation,The stock lift pump IS inadequate after a certain level of bombing,I've met that level. IMHO, it's not the VP44,replacement fuel lines is a bandaid fix, REPLACE the lift pump,your fuel related problems may go away, from one point to the other. Personally, I'd rather dial my power up or down rather than injectors that will produce results I'd only want 10% of the time any way. Either way, Big injectors or increased VP44 output, You better have the fuel available to both, or your a hurt'in cookie.