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perspective on oil prices...

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From the Christian Science Monitor... ... . http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0419/p03s01-usec.html





We groan when our grandparents go on about Coca-Cola costing only a nickel in their day. How did things become so much more expensive, they always want to know?

Here's the short answer: With inflation factored in, that same bottle of Coke during World War II would cost roughly what we pay for it today. Eggs, milk, and bread now cost less.









But when the subject of gasoline comes up, we sound like our elders. How did it get to be so much?



The fact is, oil is still relatively inexpensive. By one measure tracked by Dow Jones, we are still far from matching an April 1980 spike in US oil prices. The $39. 50 per barrel price that month exceeds $90 in today's dollars.



We remain a long way from that, with oil easing below the $50 mark in trading Monday.



That's not to say that energy costs aren't hitting families and corporations in the pocketbook. Even as oil prices have softened in recent days, there's been new concern about energy dampening economic growth. But a broader view - looking at oil over a longer period and against other goods and services - puts the impact in a less dire perspective.



"Gas is actually cheap right now," says Timothy McMahon, editor of InflationData.com"Up until a year ago, oil was at a historic low, and they were giving this stuff away. And so to go from $20 a barrel to $50 a barrel looks like a big increase in a small period of time. But if it were spread out over those 25 years, nobody would say a thing. "



Even with the rising costs, economists say, energy still makes up a small percentage of a family's budget, about 4 percent. That's half what it was in the early 1980s.



In fact, lots of goods and services have gone down in price during that time, including clothes, electronics, and food. But don't dismiss your grandparents that quickly. Certain things like new cars, new homes, healthcare, and a college education are considerably more expensive today.



AAA, the nation's largest organization for motorists, is quick to point out that most families try to stick to some kind of household budget and do feel the pinch when oil prices fluctuate.



"AAA's view for a long time has been that inflation-adjusted prices for energy are probably helpful to economists and policymakers, but not for the typical family that has to pay a gasoline credit-card statement every month," says Geoff Sundstrom of AAA. "The prices are paid with real dollars or current dollars. "



Consumers seem to be taking the rapid rise in oil prices in stride. Many aren't cutting out that weekend movie to make up for the damage at the pump.



Jeff Stepanik, for instance, says gas prices over $2 a gallon have not had any impact on his family's budget (or lack thereof). He is still tinkering around with motorcycles and his wife is still happily hitting the mall. "We don't live any differently than we did before," says the Houston account manager. "It's not like we're going without a meal because of gas prices. " But he is considering a life with routinely higher gas prices - as witnessed by his family's most recent purchase.



Three weeks ago, Mr. Stepanik sold his wife's "gas-guzzling" Ford Expedition and bought a hybrid Nissan. "This vehicle made more financial sense, because we are not going to stop driving," he says.



He estimates that gas prices would have to exceed $10 a gallon before he considers changing his driving patterns.



That's not an uncommon attitude in the United States. Even during the oil embargo of the 1970s, it took a while before consumers began buying smaller, more fuel-efficient cars or moving closer to where they worked.



"It's going to take a lot higher gas prices for people to consider using mass transit or carpooling again," says Mark Baxter, director of the Maguire Energy Institute at Southern Methodist University in Dallas. "It is really difficult for Americans to give up the freedom they have with the automobile. "



He sees it happening perhaps first with the younger generation, who are more shocked by the rising prices because they have grown up with cheap gas. For instance, he knows a college student who took a lower-paying summer job because it was 20 miles closer to where he lived.



"They are doing the math," says Mr. Baxter.



But Michael Solomon, consumer behavior expert at Auburn University in Alabama, calls the frenzy over rising gas prices "a tempest in a teapot," considering the amount of money people spend on small indulgences.



"The same people who are complaining about gas prices don't blink when they pay $3. 50 for a latte," he says. "That's different somehow. "



What's different is the changing perception of certain goods and services, he says. The necessities, such as food, clothing, and energy, are supposed to stay relatively constant, so that every year consumers are able to afford a little more of the "good stuff. "



"We learn that a loaf of bread is $2. 29 and we base our expectations on that. The usual becomes the right," says Dr. Solomon. "But the 11th Commandment is not that bread shall be $2. 29. "
 
Everything is relative. Figure in economies of scale and technological advances and the price of oil could easily be considered high!



In 1983 I paid $3,400 for an IBM PC with 256K (KAY!) memory and two 5-1/4" floppy drives with a monochrome monitor and an Epson RX-80 black/white DOT MATRIX printer. What computer setup would that same $3,400 buy you today?
 
In 1983, PCs were emerging, proprietary technology. Today, PCs are commodities. Therefore, prices dropped.



Oil has been a commodity for a LONG time. :rolleyes:



Rusty
 
[ hijack ]



In 1983 I paid $3,400 for an IBM PC



and in 1984 and IBM XT with 10MB hard drive, no monitor, no modem, what's a mouse?, what's a network?, ... sold for $6000.



I think I could pay off my truck with the money I have spent on computers and accys over the past 20 years.



Now, back to our regularly scheduled topic...



[ /hijack ]
 
Oil has been a commodity for a LONG time.



Yes, but technology has also been added to oil refining, which reduced costs by eliminating some jobs, and actually making the refining process more efficient.



I worked at the Port Arthur, TX Fina refinery in 1990-1992. 250 people, many of them engineers with computers, boiled more oil for less money than was being boiled in the 80's.
 
Well, I've worked for an oil/gas equipment manufacturer since 1973, and the lifting cost for new oil hasn't gone down. The new plays are in more and more difficult places such as in the deepwaters of the Gulf of Mexico, offshore Nigeria, remote reaches of Russia, etc. We've already found the easy stuff, and production rates on those fields continue to decline. The oil that comes from mature fields now often requires secondary or tertiary recovery (e. g. , waterflood, CO2 injection, fireflood, etc. ) to bring it up - that ain't cheap!



Rusty
 
Crude oil - end-user pricing, isn't all that different than, say, a bushel of wheat - except that the wheat hasn't gone up as much in base cost. The great similarity is, the FARMER still sells his raw wheat at relatively low cost, while the consumer gets stuck in the shorts at the grocery store. So WHO makes the biggest profit - probably a commodities trader who wouldn't know dirt from doilies - and has NO knowledge or interest in farming operations.



Pretty much the same scenario with crude oil - much of the profit in oil is made by guys who never soiled their hands in an oilfield - but DO spend lots of time in the stock exchange - and between them and the oil companies themselves, OUR prices as paid at the pump continue an upward spiral that is SIGNIFICANTLY artificial!



AND, I nearly PUKE when I see these senseless "comparisons" between today's dollars and those of 3 decades ago, or senseless comparisons to Coke, latte or spring water - what *I* paid for fuel back then DID NOT hurt, and today it DOES! And attempts to gloss over todays ever increasing cost is just so much rationalization *BS*!
 
I have a question for those of you who think current energy prices are the result of a great conspiracy by the major oil companies.



If these major oil companies really can control prices, why couldn't they pull crude oil prices above the $10-$12/barrel range and natural gas above $1. 00/MMBTU back in the 1990s? It certainly would have saved a lot of jobs (and companies) in the oil industry (including its suppliers). :rolleyes: :(



Rusty
 
While I agree with Gary that comparing fuel prices to bottled water, Coke, or whatever is useless, I do feel that viewing fuel prices in light of over-all inflation over the years is the only way to compare the price/value of fuel today. I agree that the current prices hurt, and I don't want to pay any more for it than the next guy (except Rusty :) ), but we cannot expect oil prices to not adjust with inflation. I only drive my truck about 150 miles / week and am getting over 19 MPG, so the current high prices really don't affect me all that much, unless I want to take my camper somewhere. Then it cost me about $0. 25 / mile :(
 
Gary - K7GLD said:
AND, I nearly PUKE when I see these senseless "comparisons" between today's dollars and those of 3 decades ago, or senseless comparisons to Coke, latte or spring water - what *I* paid for fuel back then DID NOT hurt, and today it DOES! And attempts to gloss over todays ever increasing cost is just so much rationalization *BS*!





I would humbly submit that if the difference between being able to afford to drive a CTD or not is less than $1/gal, then perhaps there are some members living a little beyond their means or unwilling to sacrifice what it takes to continue enjoying their CTD hobby.



Yes, I see the numbers when I fill up and it's pretty intimidating. But I can't really say that's it's changed my habits or lifestyle in any tangible way. I still drive the CTD to work and run errands with it.



No, I am NOT a man of unlimited means. People don't generally get rich off military service (though maybe some congress people are trying to change that and make us nothing more than mercenaries), but that's a topic for another thread.



JLH
 
Gary - K7GLD said:
AND, I nearly PUKE when I see these senseless "comparisons" between today's dollars and those of 3 decades ago... .
With all respect, there's nothing senseless in adjusting for inflation. For example, in 1970 I came out of college and went to work at my first job earning $8,400/year. My wife and I immediately went out and bought a new Mercury Cyclone GT, fully loaded, for $3,850. Now, unless I adjust those 1970 dollars for inflation, how can I possibly make any rational comparison with 2005 salary levels, costs, etc. ?



Gary, this is NOT hocus-pocus - the prices/rates specified in many of my company's long-term agreements are indexed to CPI-U (Consumer Price Index - Urban All Items Non-Seasonally Adjusted). This is standard business practice for price-indexed agreements.



Rusty
 
what many people mistake as the high cost of living, is the cost of high living...



we can complain about high prices all we want, but prices will continue to rise, specifically oil as the supply continues to diminish, and stricter regulations are applied, it only makes sense. It all comes down to supply and demand, demand is continually increasing as more and more vehicles are on the road and industry continues to grow (ie: china) in order for the prices to come down supply has to increase, but its very unlikely that we will see the supply increase enough to effectively reduce and maintain lower prices. everyone wants to make a buck and the oil companies do it through us paying at the pump. i can sit here and complain about the high prices of fuel, but i won't do it because i know there are plenty worse off than me that would love to be able to afford the truck i have, but can't make the ends meet



if you want to play, you've gotta play... if that means working harder so i can afford what i like to do, so be it and i'll bust my a** to have fun
 
I agree that there is nothing wrong with oil following inflation trends. But in the last two years it has hardly held with inflation. Yes, I'm thinking over the short term here, but i can say that my driving habits have drastically changed. From my home it is 175 miles to the mall, or to a movie theater if you want to see the new releases. Also no branch of the family less than 500 miles away, yes all in different directions too! Not to mention my itchy feet that like to take me to new places. I already had to cancel one road trip this summer, and now will probably cancel the other also. If you've ever hauled horses for rodeo or to do business, you know how many loaded miles you can put on your CTD in one year. Now, each mile has more than doubled in cost. When you're talking about a trip that will cost $400 in fuel before and now costs $800, that's a big hit. especially if you have to make it twice a month. Even trying to get fencposts, is almost impossible without taking a loan out, it's costs tons to get them to the store. Yes, i know oil must go up, and in the long run (if the increase slows down) it probably won't hurt. but for the short hall, it hurts like heck! Also, if you keep up with financial news, you will see that exxonmobile doubled their cash income in the last year, so raise in costs of production is hardly an excuse. just my . 02
 
AfterBurner said:
Also, if you keep up with financial news, you will see that exxonmobile doubled their cash income in the last year, so raise in costs of production is hardly an excuse. just my . 02
Oil is a commodity whose price is set by the market. It's traded on the New York Merchantile Exchange (NYMEX) - HERE are the latest prices.



In that regard, the oil companies (producers) take what comes their way. Just like when beef prices are up, the rancher (producer) profits. When beef prices are down, the rancher hurts. Yes, everyone is moaning about oil company profits at $50/barrel, but no one was running Oil Aid concerts to help our industry back in the 1990s when oil was $10/barrel, oil field supply companies were shutting down left and right and many of my friends hit the streets. :(



Rusty
 
I think that they have full right to make all the money can. It's just when they say that there is a shortage or that costs is what is driving the rise. I think that the price should go up, but they make up a crisis to justify the huge jump. Last year demand went up only 2% but our reserves went up 5%. So where's the shortage? But yes, as long as we're willing to pay for it, it's our own fault.
 
"With all respect, there's nothing senseless in adjusting for inflation. "



Read my post again - it wasn't so much inflation adjustments I was griping about that you comment on above - it's the idiotic comparisons of fuel prices vs a number of non-fuel related crap that has NO bearing or relationship to transportation or fuel costs. I don't give a RA about the price of latte or spring water - THOSE are largely LUXURIES, and their pricing can be either accepted by those wanting them - or refused. But FUEL for the laboring class and most others is a NECCESSITY, if normal existance is to be continued. And to ME, it's as socially immoral for an oil company or middle East tyrant to MUG me at the oil pump, as it would be for our farmers to artificially jack up food prices to line their own pockets beyond reasonable profit. It's called GOUGING - and I don't like it for me, or for a society that must RUN on fuel to keep the wheels of agriculture, industry and society running.



And inflation indexes used merely as an EXCUSE and justification for increasing prices, is FAR different than a clearly displayed NEED to do so - and the radically increasing oil company profits - $$$ left over AFTER expenses, improvements and exploration, pretty much counters the claimed NEED for increased prices!
 
Gary - K7GLD said:
[I don't give a RA about the price of latte or spring water - THOSE are largely LUXURIES, and their pricing can be either accepted by those wanting them - or refused. But FUEL for the laboring class and most others is a NECCESSITY,



Come ON, Gary. Fuel is a need, but fuel for a 10mpg towing diesel truck is NOT a need-- it's a luxury, as is the RV that's being pulled behind it.



If you want to talk "needs", then it's basically just food, water, shelter, and a 60mpg Hybrid.



This is relevant because EVERY single one of us is driving a LUXURY. Yes, a CTD is a LUXURY for the vast majority of members-- only a handful here rely upon them for their livelihood, and even then, no one's entitled to a job in transportation. If you can't afford the fuel, find another job. That's how capitalism works.



I'm wearing pretty thin with all the price complaining.



jlh
 
Gary - K7GLD said:
AND, I nearly PUKE when I see these senseless "comparisons" between today's dollars and those of 3 decades ago... .
Gee, Gary, I read it again and it still says the same thing! :rolleyes:



Rusty
 
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