Petition to Reinstate Don M.

[sdalton]

Well I have had people explain why Don M was booted. By what they say, it is very unjust, and possibly financially motivated. It seems that he knocked advertisers one too many times. Shame on the administrators for either being so motivated or just being politically correct. Shame Shame Shame. I know that my membership is up for renewal in a week or so, and things like this make me just want to save my $35. I know that the quality of this site diminished greatly when Bill K jumped ship.

His expertise saved countless members butts and transmissions when there was a lot of bandaide fixes for our trannys. This site should pay Bill K to be a member, as well as a few others who have helped make this site as credible and as professional as it has become to this date.

 

[Steve M]

I agree with Don's view of the product that was used to bait another member into a cyber fistfight for which the other member was gentleman and man enough not to take. So I agree with Don but my hat's off to the other member. I'd like to see Don come back but with perhaps alittle less :-{}

Sometimes we must agree to disagree. I stuck my nose in it just long anough for another member to email me and kindly hold a mirror up so I could see that I had fallen for the bait and was making an A/H of myself and it wasn't even my argument.

Rules are rules and they are for good reason. We know them before we break them. If he doesn't come back we all know why.

 

[Peter Campbell]

Don made the mistake of quoting from a thread that was no longer in archives. He should have found the thread first. Or downloaded it back in the day before it was closed and deleted. And he should have been alittle more polite. But it was his opinion on an opinion said by a MLM salesman. The fact that he did not use profanity or disparage anyones religion goes to his credit. But he did the one mistake that will get you thrown off the board every time. He brought to light in a very baiting way the hypocritical marketing of a company. Not just any company, one whose some users and most successfull representatives must convince everyone of thier wonderfull product. Of course if you do not use the product you must be a cheapskate and abusing your truck due to not using the most expensive product around. Dont you want your engine to outlast your truck by six times instead of three times? The fact that both Bill K and don were tossed off for fueling controversy with well paid advertisers, did not curse , just pointed out very embarassing items of the present or earlier buisiness practices of these advertisers. This board is still a wealth of information. But as far as chosing vendors based on what is said here- I do not think so. the policy seems to be to squash any embarassing info on well paying vendors. Note no vendors names were mentioned. If history repeats itself, As in the article on a vendor that appeared right after bill K was thrown off- I think I know what the subject of article I will see in the uopcoming issue will be.

 

[GSchlegel]

Bring Don back, if he wants back. I hope he does.



Gene

 

[Bob Wagner]

excellent points Peter

 

['956Wheel]

With certain folks on the TDR comes knowledge, IMO Don is one of those folks. Bring him back and IMO do some rethinking of the bias moderating. Also realize the fact that with intellegence comes controversy. Read and heed your history!



Mike

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

I'm sorry, but this continues to amaze me. Let me be VERY clear, I am the one who turned off Don's access to the forums - so I am the primary one who knows why his access was turned off. As I have said several times now - IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BASHING A TDR ADVERTISER! If it did have anything to do with bashing a TDR advertiser then you would have seen any and all posts that bashed Dodge or Cummins removed from the site seeing as how they have had full page four color advertisements in the magazine for years and represent FAR more advertising revenue to the TDR than ALL of the Amsoil dealers put together. On top of that Don currently has over 180 posts on the site regarding Amsoil and I haven't gone through each one but I can almost guarantee that most of them are putting Amsoil down based on what I've read. His being booted had NOTHING to do with that. What it did have to do with was his baiting users to drudge up oil wars. He had been warned many times and back in February his posting privileges to the site were revoked for 10 days. At the same time the posting privileges for MGM (aka Sled Puller, Gene) were also revoked for 10 days (a friend of mine BTW - if I had a bias why would I turn off a friends posting priveleges?) because of the same thing. I was VERY clear in my message to both users when I said:

We will reinstate your access on February 20th and hope that you will let this issue drop at that point, if not we will then revoke your posting priveleges and refund your subscription money.

Both users had received prior warnings, and both received a 10 day "time out" and were warned with EXACTLY what would happen if they continued the "wars". What I did was EXACTLY what I said I would do 4 months ago. Gene received the exact same warning as Don and if he had done what Don did HIS access to the site would have been turned off.



On a second note as I have said MANY times before, Bill K received a 30 day suspension as is policy for violating the guidelines. He had been allowed to push the guidelines MANY times and we tried to work with him (as we did with Don). His access to the forums were turned back on after that suspension and HE sent a letter stating that he wanted to have nothing more to do with the TDR. In the end he was NOT booted by the TDR, he decided to remove himself from the boards himself.



I for one am VERY sorry to see both Bill K and Don M's knowledge and experience leave the TDR (as hard as that may be for some of you to believe). The LAST thing I want to do is remove anyones access from the site or see anyone leave the site. However, rules are rules and we are trying to keep 12,000+ users happy here. No matter how much knowledge a user possesses/imparts on here they have to abide by the same rules as everyone else. We will do everything in our power to help them abide by the rules if they are having a hard time with it. If after many attempts they are not able to, then we will go to the 1,2,3 strike rule and deal with it that way. As I have said in other posts a grand total of 6 users have been booted from the site out of over 12,000 in roughly 3 years. It takes a LOT to get to the point of getting booted from the site as witnessed by only 6 people getting booted in ~3 years.



Putting a petition up like this is truly pointless. Talking totally hypothetical numbers here. Let's say 100 people post to this that want Don reinstated. The post at the top of this thread said ONLY those that want him reinstated to post. Say we get 300 private emails saying don't let him back on - none of the 100 that say let him back on will see those. I can tell you that I have gotten at least 10 emails supporting my decision to 1 denouncing it. The simple fact of the matter is that the guidelines were violated, a user had been warned. He ignored that warning many times over and was given a "time out" and told exactly what would happen if he did it again. He then decided to exactly that and I followed through on what would happen.



I have made this offer several times throughout this episode and I keep reading posts from users that say "I won't be renewing my subscription". The offer is out there - if you are unhappy with your subscription to the TDR or the service I, or the TDR website is providing to you feel free to request a refund of your remaining subscription by emailing rpatton@ix.netcom.com . Your refund will be processed promptly.



-Steve St. Laurent

Lead Moderator

 

['956Wheel]

SSL,



You have written many words yet have said very little. You did not need to inform most that a certain oil dealer is your friend as your actions have said that loud and clear.



"Pointless", so true as the chosen ones rule the board anytime controversy arises. There was the clutch mfg. who was slandered beyond belief and you did nothing. Remember? A clutch either does or does not... no "gray area", yet the oil genie keeps on coming out of the bottle, provoked or marketed, in an attempt to baffle the less knowledgable with false information... Your job seems to be protection of the dealers! You have the power to delete and post your opinion, as you did with me, or you can be hero to your oil buddies and flex your "moderator muscle". Be a man about it. Make us proud!



So Steve, keep on writting and baffle the few that do not know any better but remember you volunteered for the job of moderator. There will come a time when truth will (hopefully) enter your thought process in the meantime we will be stuck reading your long winded rheoric. Remember when I was deemed a racist by a modrator, one you "LEAD", that my friend is known as slander!



I will not be running to e-mail the Patton's but rather simply let it run out as I enter e-mail addresses of the true mechanics thus filtering out the salesman. If a product is good it sells itself.



Mike

 

[rrausch]

Steve St. L: Putting a petition up like this is truly pointless.



The purpose of my posting this thread was to give the people who want to petition TDR to allow Don back on the site a place to voice their views. Why are you demeaning my thread?





I can tell you that I have gotten at least 10 emails supporting my decision to 1 denouncing it.



Steve, I believe this is because of the unique nature of the Amsoil business. When Dr. P was savaged (righteously so) many months ago, very few people supported him. With Amsoil there are HUNDREDS of members who sell it and thousands who use it and I suspect all those who sell it and many who use it e-mailed Admin, complaining about Don. This pressure, I believe, is what got Don booted. Not the fact that he attacked an advertiser, but the fact that he attacked a popular, well-entrenched advertiser, and in the process threatened the income of hundreds of Amsoil distributors. (I don't use Amsoil, but I don't think it is the devil's own brew either)



The purpose of this thread is to give people who feel Don M. was unfairly booted out a place to petition Robin to review Don's case, perhaps change the policy about booting members, or just allow Don back on the board.



Steve, you booted him, you did your job. That's great. That is what you were hired for. Now, as in any business disagreement, we the undersigned are asking to speak to a supervisor, in this case Robin Patton. We are asking her to review Don's case, perhaps change the guidelines and give Don a temporary suspension instead of a dismissal. This is not a slam toward you and the fine job you do. This is a request for a change in TDR policy, or perhaps just a re-instatement. But it is a request to allow Don back in.



Personally I feel it would be much more palatable to give Don a temporary suspension. It would alleviate a lot of fear in the membership about what is allowed and what isn't. I believe it would benefit our beloved TDR in the long run, as the TDR management would be seen as a benevolent entity, able to tolerate some dissension, yet willing to temporarily suspend a members' access if so deemed. It would make the TDR seem more forgiving, more friendly.



Now please... this thread is ONLY for those who want to petition Robin and the TDR Admin.

 

[StakeMan]

rrausch,

He already had a temporary suspension. It obviously was not enough to make him understand.

 

[MDW]

I for one am tired of the bashing and support the banning of a member who constantly is causing trouble and has been warned time and again.



Its time this site is cleaned up.



Michael

 

[Crazy Horse]

Well, I'm gonna keep this short because I don't like to hear myself talk as some do around here. I for one have been spending more time away from TDR for the other sites:Dodge Diesel. Org and Dodge Truck World. There's no cry babying going on by members or MODERATORS. When I first joined TDR a couple of years ago it was a pleasant and informative site, but things have changed, maybe it gotten too big like our government and it's startin to show it's ugly side. We'll just keep an eye out and see which webste grows instead of shrinking! Keep The Faith and God Bless America.

 

[KMeek]

I do not have a dog in this fight. I know none of the players and am not connected to any oil interests or any product relevant to this Board. I support Steve. He has a tough job and he has performed it under circumstances that many of you have made as miserable as possible for him. His messages to you have been clear and unequivocal. I am glad that he is not some weak wimp that buckles to those who refuse to acknowlege his message.



But. more importantly, I want to comment about the "Don" cause. The irony of your Petition is that you seem to care more about Don's membership privileges than he did as evidenced by his wilfull refusal to follow the rules and/or respect repeated warnings. In my 47 years of life experiences I have discovered that it is a good rule not to take another persons cause more serious than they do!

 

[M Barnett]

I will finally get involved. Maybe, and I'm sure it is, just different points of view. The word baiting keeps comming up. I didn't see it that way at all. What if Don had something he was trying to get to the bottom of? If he or anybody else was constantly telling blatent lies about a product, I would not like that and I'm sure nobody else would either. But I see these debates as a good learning process for a lot of us. Don't we all want to learn? Why else are we here? I would like to see him back.

Michael

 

[sdalton]

I still believe that booting Don off permanently was going too far. I think the more appropriate thing to do, if he did in fact violate TDR policy, was to suspend his posting privilages again . If he was violating the same policies that he was spanked for in the past then either either give another 10 day suspension, or up it to a 20 day suspension. Given enough suspensions for the same violation, and upping the time on each suspension for the same offense, this should eventually get the point across.



Baiting someone is not always a bad thing, if you are in the right and it gets the truth out.

I myself think Amsoil is a wonderful product for the right person. I dont use it, because I personally dont think my truck will outlast the engine while using Dino oils. If I planned on putting more than 400,000 miles on the engine before the truck fell apart, then Yes, I would use Amsoil . Long term costs vs. benefits are what drive me in the amsoil usage issue.

 

[me4osu]

I don't have any opinion either way about Amsoil. I like Rotella because it works well and I don't mind more frequent change intervals.



However, I think that the whole expulsion thing contradicts the definition of MODERATOR. IMHO, a moderator would ask a member to revise an offensive or inflammatory post. If they did not comply, the moderator would simply delete the entire thread and possibly place the individual on some sort of suspension. When someone gets kicked off the site, that seems (to me) to be more similar to excess than moderation.



Thats just my opinion, but rules are rules.

 

[paccool]

rrausch,



Seems like a poll might be in order here.



a) in favor of reinstating Don

b) Rules are made for a reason, he stays off.

c) Who cares



This would tell you how many are for bringing him back.



Stan

 

[StakeMan]

Originally posted by sdalton

Given enough suspensions for the same violation, and upping the time on each suspension for the same offense, this should eventually get the point across.

So whats the magic number? How many times does someone have to be given a "time out" before they get the boot? Is it a different number for everyone?



I have nothing against Don M or the moderators. Don knowingly broke the rules. He knew what was going to happen. It was his choice and he made it.

 

[paccool]

Stakeman, well said!



Stan

 

[PRout]

Treading on thin ice...



(post submitted)