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Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Product Engineering PE4100 installed
- Thread starter Bigsaint
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I was going to post a new thread tomorrow, but I see a need for more info right now.
2 days ago, I noticed that my FP was very easy to pull down to 5 psi's or less, under light throttle. It happened right as I left work on a -5F night, so I dismissed it as some gelled fuel in the tank. The psi's came right back to normal after maybe 3 miles of low speed driving. The next day my FP was completely normal. Today, when I started the truck, my FP was 0 ( actually was pulling a vaccum number). First thought was the relay had gone bad, but after checking found that the pump was in fact running, just producing very low psi's when I bumped the starter. I pulled the internal bypass spring and found it to be intact. I replaced it and again bumped the starter, now slightly higher psi's, but not enough to drive the truck. I disconnected the inbound fuel line to the pump and found that I had a very solid flow of fuel coming from the tank. That's the bad news.
The good news is that I called PE and spoke with Mike at length. Since I was one of, if not the first, to try one of the PE pumps in our applications, we had originally guessed that the 4100 would be just right. That was back in April of 2002. Since that time, PE has introduced the 4200, which does have internal differences while compared to the 4100 that I was using. More specifically, they had noticed inconsistances with the bypass on the 4100 and made what they believe to be the appropiate changes to the 4200. Mike stated that they now have over 25 4200 series pumps in service with no failures to date. Just remember that my 4100 was in service the longest and the 4100 lasted almost 9 months to the day. Hopefully, the 4200 will have more longevity.
PE is overnighting me a 4200, true to their warranty word. They asked that they bill my credit card for the new pump, with the promise that they will credit my card when they receive the failed unit. Fair enough to me. I will post the failure analysis as soon as I receive the same from PE. These guys really seem commited to helping us find a cure to the lift pump dilemma and maybe my failure will turn out to be your gain after analysis.
If you are still interested in the purchase of a PE pump, please get the 4200, not the 4100. Best bet is to contact them direct at
http://www.productengr.com/ . I would call rather than email, good and honest folks to deal with.
In closing, I'd like to say "what the hell" . Since I was the first to try the pump, might as well be first to try the warranty
. Funny part is that the only 4200 they had on hand is purple, think it will clase with my eyes ???
Scott W.
2 days ago, I noticed that my FP was very easy to pull down to 5 psi's or less, under light throttle. It happened right as I left work on a -5F night, so I dismissed it as some gelled fuel in the tank. The psi's came right back to normal after maybe 3 miles of low speed driving. The next day my FP was completely normal. Today, when I started the truck, my FP was 0 ( actually was pulling a vaccum number). First thought was the relay had gone bad, but after checking found that the pump was in fact running, just producing very low psi's when I bumped the starter. I pulled the internal bypass spring and found it to be intact. I replaced it and again bumped the starter, now slightly higher psi's, but not enough to drive the truck. I disconnected the inbound fuel line to the pump and found that I had a very solid flow of fuel coming from the tank. That's the bad news.
The good news is that I called PE and spoke with Mike at length. Since I was one of, if not the first, to try one of the PE pumps in our applications, we had originally guessed that the 4100 would be just right. That was back in April of 2002. Since that time, PE has introduced the 4200, which does have internal differences while compared to the 4100 that I was using. More specifically, they had noticed inconsistances with the bypass on the 4100 and made what they believe to be the appropiate changes to the 4200. Mike stated that they now have over 25 4200 series pumps in service with no failures to date. Just remember that my 4100 was in service the longest and the 4100 lasted almost 9 months to the day. Hopefully, the 4200 will have more longevity.
PE is overnighting me a 4200, true to their warranty word. They asked that they bill my credit card for the new pump, with the promise that they will credit my card when they receive the failed unit. Fair enough to me. I will post the failure analysis as soon as I receive the same from PE. These guys really seem commited to helping us find a cure to the lift pump dilemma and maybe my failure will turn out to be your gain after analysis.
If you are still interested in the purchase of a PE pump, please get the 4200, not the 4100. Best bet is to contact them direct at
http://www.productengr.com/ . I would call rather than email, good and honest folks to deal with.
In closing, I'd like to say "what the hell" . Since I was the first to try the pump, might as well be first to try the warranty
. Funny part is that the only 4200 they had on hand is purple, think it will clase with my eyes ???Scott W.
Think I will wait a little longer to see what the results are for the 4200. Why do pumps not last with diesel. 
Scott
I am sure you where in fact the first. When we where discussing yours John and Mike had never used one in a diesel before. Yours was the test case.
I ran the 4100 for about 18K miles. I installed mine about a month after you installed yours.
I had seen some pressure fluctuation but attributed it to the fuel filter starting to get blocked. When I would change the filter the pressures would return to normal.
I have since changed to the 4200. The pressures are a bit higher than I would normally like. I did not change due to dissatisfaction but wanted to check out the wear o the 4100 and I had a 4200 on the shelf.
So far I have over 5K miles on it and no problems.
Scott since I talked you into being the test case I will help you out with something when I get from deployment. I should be all done mid March.
Craig
I am sure you where in fact the first. When we where discussing yours John and Mike had never used one in a diesel before. Yours was the test case.
I ran the 4100 for about 18K miles. I installed mine about a month after you installed yours.
I had seen some pressure fluctuation but attributed it to the fuel filter starting to get blocked. When I would change the filter the pressures would return to normal.
I have since changed to the 4200. The pressures are a bit higher than I would normally like. I did not change due to dissatisfaction but wanted to check out the wear o the 4100 and I had a 4200 on the shelf.
So far I have over 5K miles on it and no problems.
Scott since I talked you into being the test case I will help you out with something when I get from deployment. I should be all done mid March.
Craig
I think the 2 main issues with these pumps (surprise, surprise!) are electrical, and mechanical. The mechanical part relates to designing various housings, impellers and seals that are intended for nearly endless life (at reasonable, affordable cost) in essentially constant service - the other is the inherent problem in design/operation of a DC motor in that type of service that will ALSO have a nearly endless service life.
DC motors in common use, employ carbon brushes dragging on a rotating commutator to excite the armature and create rotation for motor operation. The very nature of this operation creates sparking, carbon dust and mechanical erosion/wear of the brushes and commutator that eventually cause the motor to fail - and there's little point in designing a pump section of such a pump that will obviously LONG outlive the motor section. so practical compromises are made to keep prices in line.
Technology CAN provide long life pump sections and seals and bearings - at a price - but the problem with the DC portion of a motor intended for long life is a bit more difficult. *I* think a good alternative, would be to design a motor that operates on alternating current, and does away with the brushes entirely - eliminating that predictable sources of failure - with a DC motor, failure at a relatively early lifespan isn't just a possibility, it's a sure thing! And if the design pump life is keyed to the expected lifespan of the motor, we have 2 strikes against us before the unit even leaves the factory doors...
But AC motors CAN be designed that will outlast whatever they are installed in, can be ELECTRONICALLY regulated to control rotation (or fuel pressure in our case), and typically operate much more quietly than DC motors. And the state of the art in electronics SHOULD be to the point that such a motor for LP use wouldn't be all that much more costly than the cruder DC motors now used...
DC motors in common use, employ carbon brushes dragging on a rotating commutator to excite the armature and create rotation for motor operation. The very nature of this operation creates sparking, carbon dust and mechanical erosion/wear of the brushes and commutator that eventually cause the motor to fail - and there's little point in designing a pump section of such a pump that will obviously LONG outlive the motor section. so practical compromises are made to keep prices in line.
Technology CAN provide long life pump sections and seals and bearings - at a price - but the problem with the DC portion of a motor intended for long life is a bit more difficult. *I* think a good alternative, would be to design a motor that operates on alternating current, and does away with the brushes entirely - eliminating that predictable sources of failure - with a DC motor, failure at a relatively early lifespan isn't just a possibility, it's a sure thing! And if the design pump life is keyed to the expected lifespan of the motor, we have 2 strikes against us before the unit even leaves the factory doors...
But AC motors CAN be designed that will outlast whatever they are installed in, can be ELECTRONICALLY regulated to control rotation (or fuel pressure in our case), and typically operate much more quietly than DC motors. And the state of the art in electronics SHOULD be to the point that such a motor for LP use wouldn't be all that much more costly than the cruder DC motors now used...
Thanks Craig and no sweat, all the 4200 will cost me is shipping, which is no problem in my book. All part of the R+D effort.
As promised, the 4200 arrived today. I was in court all morning, took 2 hours off work to install the 4200 and now I'm back at work until 2300. I'll post my first impressions ( all good) when I get home tonight.
Good post a Gary and I agree with ya. I think my problem was directly related to the internal regulator, will expand on this later tonight. For those with the 4200 series, I really wouldn't worry much about what happened to me, the internal bypass is different on the 4200s.
Scott W.
As promised, the 4200 arrived today. I was in court all morning, took 2 hours off work to install the 4200 and now I'm back at work until 2300. I'll post my first impressions ( all good) when I get home tonight.
Good post a Gary and I agree with ya. I think my problem was directly related to the internal regulator, will expand on this later tonight. For those with the 4200 series, I really wouldn't worry much about what happened to me, the internal bypass is different on the 4200s.
Scott W.
Okay, here goes... I'm kinda beat up today, so if I miss something, let me know.
Received my new anodized PURPLE PE4200 today, as promised by the guys at PE. Took 2 hours of personal time from work tonight to get it installed and the truck back on the road. Since I was draining the majority of the inbound fuel lines, decided it was a good time for a fuel filter replacement as well, since it was due.
Exterior view, the 4200 is a clone of the 4100. The provided mounting holes ( 1/4"x20) are all in the same locations as well. I ditched the rubberized mounts the 4100 came with and, using my existing bracket that I had mounted for the 4100, used 4 SS bolts with SS washers ( 1 lock and 1 flat per bolt) along with a rubber flat washer on each bolt on the pump side to help isolate vibration. Bolted right up and worked well. DO NOT use the provided rubber isolater bolts that come with the PE pumps. They are very unstable and cannot support the weight of the pump. If you go to my readers rigs of the TDR and look under PE4100, you will see that I had to add a zip tie to temporarily support the pump after my initial installation of the 4100. The rest of the install was the same as the 4100. The hot wire runs from a relay under the hood, that uses the original wire that powered the OEM lift pump as a trigger/switch to close the relay and power the pump. The use of a relay is not optional with the PE pumps. It's a must as the pump draws more amps. than the OEM pump. Inbound and outbound fuel lines to and from the pump remain the same as what I used with the 4100. The inbound line to the 4200 is -8AN, which is attached to the hardline ( which is cut just forward of the tank) via a Earl's compression fitting. Outbound from the pump is again -8AN, which is downsized to -6AN with a fitting, to fit my -6AN Weber fitting at the inlet to the fuel filter. The ground wire is attached to the frame, adjacent to the pump using a self tapping bolt and a "O" ring connector, which I soldered to the ground wire. I solder all connections and then shrink wrap same as the conditions under the truck are pretty hostile 'round here, especially in the winter months. All wires are then covered with wire loom to clean up the install.
I keyed on twice, not bumping the starter, to be sure diesel was present in the pump. I then bumped the starter 3 times ( fuel filter change) and fired her up. Heres where I became confused. The pump jumped right up to around 22 psi's ( my gauge only goes to 20) and then setteled around 18 psi's. It was cold and the grid heaters kicked in. Instead of the psi's dropping, they jumped back to 20 psi's everytime the grid heaters kicked in. With the 4100 and Mallory pumps, I ALWAYS observed a decrease in psi's when the GH's were on. Expected it in fact, as we all know how much they draw. After the GH's stopped running I allowed the truck to warm up to running temp while idling with the ebrake on. The psi's pre-filter had settled to 14-15 psi's pre-filter. Somewhat less than I expected. I checked the fuel fittings for leaks then took a test ride.
Here's where I thought I had a problem. Watching both the pre and post FP gauges, the pump was swinging the psi's from 15-20 under light to moderate throttle. Not consistantly swinging them, just on now and then. I hit the open road and nailed a heavy throttle WOT run, the psi's post filter stayed no lower than 10-11, despite the lower reading of 14-15 psi's that I saw at idle. Again, on occasion, the psi's would jump to 18-20 while under throttle, with no apparent trend. I thought I had just installed another lemon and was pretty disgusted with what I was seeing.
I returned home and decied to check the voltage with a multi meter while the truck was idling. At the pumps connection I read 13. 8v, all good. I called PE and spoke with John. I advised John on what my psi's were and the swings I was seeing. The only explanation that I could think of was one radical internal bypass system, so I asked him and he affirmed my thought. The PE4200 has a bypass (at least mine) that actually compensates for fuel delivery and hopefully reduces the risk of cavitation at the pump. John stated the swings I was observing were due to the bypass in action. I have no idea on how it works, but I can tell ya that I could not pull the pump below 10-11 at a full WOT run, so I'm happy. My at idle psi's actually rose to around 16 after I had taken the trip, guessing due to the warmer fuel.
As always, time will tell. I'm way back on the install list for the 4200. I don't know who has the first in our application, perhaps brother TDR member Cscott ? Regardless, I am convinced that the guys at PE are determined to help us in this endeavor. They backed their warranty with a new pump and I will post a failure analysis of the the 4100 as soon as I receive same. While I have difficulty celebrating a company that provided me with a pump that failed after 9 months of service, their customer support is second to none. John at PE stated that they now have around 25 4200 series pumps in service in our application. To date, no 4200s have failed. I hope that my short run with the 4100 will provide them with the data needed to build us a bulletproof pump that will last. If nothing else, that purple pump looks pretty darn good under my salt covered truck .
Scott W.
Received my new anodized PURPLE PE4200 today, as promised by the guys at PE. Took 2 hours of personal time from work tonight to get it installed and the truck back on the road. Since I was draining the majority of the inbound fuel lines, decided it was a good time for a fuel filter replacement as well, since it was due.
Exterior view, the 4200 is a clone of the 4100. The provided mounting holes ( 1/4"x20) are all in the same locations as well. I ditched the rubberized mounts the 4100 came with and, using my existing bracket that I had mounted for the 4100, used 4 SS bolts with SS washers ( 1 lock and 1 flat per bolt) along with a rubber flat washer on each bolt on the pump side to help isolate vibration. Bolted right up and worked well. DO NOT use the provided rubber isolater bolts that come with the PE pumps. They are very unstable and cannot support the weight of the pump. If you go to my readers rigs of the TDR and look under PE4100, you will see that I had to add a zip tie to temporarily support the pump after my initial installation of the 4100. The rest of the install was the same as the 4100. The hot wire runs from a relay under the hood, that uses the original wire that powered the OEM lift pump as a trigger/switch to close the relay and power the pump. The use of a relay is not optional with the PE pumps. It's a must as the pump draws more amps. than the OEM pump. Inbound and outbound fuel lines to and from the pump remain the same as what I used with the 4100. The inbound line to the 4200 is -8AN, which is attached to the hardline ( which is cut just forward of the tank) via a Earl's compression fitting. Outbound from the pump is again -8AN, which is downsized to -6AN with a fitting, to fit my -6AN Weber fitting at the inlet to the fuel filter. The ground wire is attached to the frame, adjacent to the pump using a self tapping bolt and a "O" ring connector, which I soldered to the ground wire. I solder all connections and then shrink wrap same as the conditions under the truck are pretty hostile 'round here, especially in the winter months. All wires are then covered with wire loom to clean up the install.
I keyed on twice, not bumping the starter, to be sure diesel was present in the pump. I then bumped the starter 3 times ( fuel filter change) and fired her up. Heres where I became confused. The pump jumped right up to around 22 psi's ( my gauge only goes to 20) and then setteled around 18 psi's. It was cold and the grid heaters kicked in. Instead of the psi's dropping, they jumped back to 20 psi's everytime the grid heaters kicked in. With the 4100 and Mallory pumps, I ALWAYS observed a decrease in psi's when the GH's were on. Expected it in fact, as we all know how much they draw. After the GH's stopped running I allowed the truck to warm up to running temp while idling with the ebrake on. The psi's pre-filter had settled to 14-15 psi's pre-filter. Somewhat less than I expected. I checked the fuel fittings for leaks then took a test ride.
Here's where I thought I had a problem. Watching both the pre and post FP gauges, the pump was swinging the psi's from 15-20 under light to moderate throttle. Not consistantly swinging them, just on now and then. I hit the open road and nailed a heavy throttle WOT run, the psi's post filter stayed no lower than 10-11, despite the lower reading of 14-15 psi's that I saw at idle. Again, on occasion, the psi's would jump to 18-20 while under throttle, with no apparent trend. I thought I had just installed another lemon and was pretty disgusted with what I was seeing.
I returned home and decied to check the voltage with a multi meter while the truck was idling. At the pumps connection I read 13. 8v, all good. I called PE and spoke with John. I advised John on what my psi's were and the swings I was seeing. The only explanation that I could think of was one radical internal bypass system, so I asked him and he affirmed my thought. The PE4200 has a bypass (at least mine) that actually compensates for fuel delivery and hopefully reduces the risk of cavitation at the pump. John stated the swings I was observing were due to the bypass in action. I have no idea on how it works, but I can tell ya that I could not pull the pump below 10-11 at a full WOT run, so I'm happy. My at idle psi's actually rose to around 16 after I had taken the trip, guessing due to the warmer fuel.
As always, time will tell. I'm way back on the install list for the 4200. I don't know who has the first in our application, perhaps brother TDR member Cscott ? Regardless, I am convinced that the guys at PE are determined to help us in this endeavor. They backed their warranty with a new pump and I will post a failure analysis of the the 4100 as soon as I receive same. While I have difficulty celebrating a company that provided me with a pump that failed after 9 months of service, their customer support is second to none. John at PE stated that they now have around 25 4200 series pumps in service in our application. To date, no 4200s have failed. I hope that my short run with the 4100 will provide them with the data needed to build us a bulletproof pump that will last. If nothing else, that purple pump looks pretty darn good under my salt covered truck
. Scott W.
QUOTE:Funny part is that the only 4200 they had on hand is purple, think it will clase with my eyes ???
Oh no, not more purple parts... ..... glad mine is blue/red/gold, sorta.
Sorry to hear about the 4100 Scott, but glad to hear about the warrenty.
Not sure of the miles on my 4200, been in for about 3 months I guess, maybe 8-9000 miles, still works fine.
I don't have any irregular readings, as soon as I fire it up, both gauges jump to 22/21 pre/post (I have mechanical gauges), they drop a few #'s while the grid heaters are on, then back to 22/21. With the DDIII's and PM comp on 9, I can't drag the needles below 16/15 pre/post, ever. All my lines are -8 from the tank(which I tapped into the sender), to the filter, and then -6 from the filter to the VP, and no banjos, all webers. So far, so good.
Later, Rob
Oh no, not more purple parts... ..... glad mine is blue/red/gold, sorta.
Sorry to hear about the 4100 Scott, but glad to hear about the warrenty.
Not sure of the miles on my 4200, been in for about 3 months I guess, maybe 8-9000 miles, still works fine.
I don't have any irregular readings, as soon as I fire it up, both gauges jump to 22/21 pre/post (I have mechanical gauges), they drop a few #'s while the grid heaters are on, then back to 22/21. With the DDIII's and PM comp on 9, I can't drag the needles below 16/15 pre/post, ever. All my lines are -8 from the tank(which I tapped into the sender), to the filter, and then -6 from the filter to the VP, and no banjos, all webers. So far, so good.
Later, Rob
Last edited:
Just got back from a 30 mile test ride, apparently my internal bypass is different than some of the other 4200s??? When I start the truck, the psi's jump right to 20-22 psi's and hold there. Once the grid heaters stop running and while at idle, the psi's slowly settle to around 15 psi's. Under steady throttle with low boost, the pump remains steady at 12-13 psi's. As soon as you nail the go pedal, the internal bypass reacts and the psi's jump up to about 20. Go back to a steady throttle and psi's settle back to around 12-13. If I had not spoke with John at PE last night, I would be concerned as I have never seen this type of fluctuation before. Bottom line is, that the more I call for fuel, i. e. , under heavy boost, the more the pump delivers. Sure hope it lasts.
I had about 9,000 miles on the 4100. I only put around 12,000 on in a year. A lot of short trips of around 10-15 miles mixed up with at least one good 30 mile run per week.
Scott W.
I had about 9,000 miles on the 4100. I only put around 12,000 on in a year. A lot of short trips of around 10-15 miles mixed up with at least one good 30 mile run per week.
Scott W.
Real erratic psi's/4200
Rather than re-type, here's a email I just sent to PE concerning the 4200 I am now running... .
"Hey John, hate to be a pest but just wanted to let you know what I'm seeing with the 4200 on the diesel. At cold start up, as per first day install, around 15-16 psi's at idle. Once underway, the pump jumps while under boost from 12-13 psi's to 17-20 psi's. Under sustained throttle with low boost the psi's settle around 12-14. Here's a new twist. If I take a long ride, maybe 15-20 miles or so and then shut down, on restart the psi's jump right to 24-25 and stay there ???? If I let the truck sit for 6-8 hours after a long run, the psi's are back to 15-16 at idle. I have two FP gauges, one post and one pre- fuel filter, so it's not a gauge issue. No need to reply, unless this is less than normal. Hate to bother you guys, but I have never seen a pump that acted like this 4200. Thanks again and feel free to contact me at my home number if need be. If I don't hear from you I will assume all is normal. The 4100 went out first thing this past Monday, UPS ground. It should be at your door by Friday. "
I'll be interested in the response. I have never seen a healthy pump act in this manner ??? No one else that I know of has erratic psi's with the 4200, correct ??? Can't help but think that I got a lemon. This sucks. Tonight, on the ride home from work, the FP was idling at 14-15, dropping down to 12 and then rebounding to 16-18. Everyday I drive the truck I have different FP readings. Some days, when the grid heaters kick in, the psi's drop, some days they rise when the grid heaters kick in ??? I already checked the voltage, getting 13. 8 +/- when the truck is running, same that I had when I was running the Mallory pumps through the relay or the 4100 ????
Scott W.
Rather than re-type, here's a email I just sent to PE concerning the 4200 I am now running... .
"Hey John, hate to be a pest but just wanted to let you know what I'm seeing with the 4200 on the diesel. At cold start up, as per first day install, around 15-16 psi's at idle. Once underway, the pump jumps while under boost from 12-13 psi's to 17-20 psi's. Under sustained throttle with low boost the psi's settle around 12-14. Here's a new twist. If I take a long ride, maybe 15-20 miles or so and then shut down, on restart the psi's jump right to 24-25 and stay there ???? If I let the truck sit for 6-8 hours after a long run, the psi's are back to 15-16 at idle. I have two FP gauges, one post and one pre- fuel filter, so it's not a gauge issue. No need to reply, unless this is less than normal. Hate to bother you guys, but I have never seen a pump that acted like this 4200. Thanks again and feel free to contact me at my home number if need be. If I don't hear from you I will assume all is normal. The 4100 went out first thing this past Monday, UPS ground. It should be at your door by Friday. "
I'll be interested in the response. I have never seen a healthy pump act in this manner ??? No one else that I know of has erratic psi's with the 4200, correct ??? Can't help but think that I got a lemon. This sucks. Tonight, on the ride home from work, the FP was idling at 14-15, dropping down to 12 and then rebounding to 16-18. Everyday I drive the truck I have different FP readings. Some days, when the grid heaters kick in, the psi's drop, some days they rise when the grid heaters kick in ??? I already checked the voltage, getting 13. 8 +/- when the truck is running, same that I had when I was running the Mallory pumps through the relay or the 4100 ????
Scott W.
Say Scott, did you ever think your truck just hates fuel-pumps?
Hope it gets better for you.
Later, Rob
Hope it gets better for you.
Later, Rob
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Issue 128 – Digital Version
Digital Magazines
FREE!
TDR Test Drive - Digital Edition
Renew
Subscribe
Gift Subscriptions
Back Issues
Subscription Status
Address Change Form
Buyer's Guides
Ram Diagnostic Trouble Codes
The Perfect Collection
The Perfect Collection Vol. II
TSB Updates
Dodge/Cummins Historical Overview
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What Makes Us Tick?
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