I do not think that asking the fox for advice on security measures for the hen house is the way to go . It seems that there are a few post in many forums that compair differant buisnesses , when that happens I begin to duck , becouse there are many reasons why differant buisnesses have lagitment differance in profit margins so compairing them seems to be manipulation of the facts and or the perseption of them.
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proof we are getting screwed on diesel
- Thread starter Cummins Cowboy
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JFaughn said:
ABSOLUTELY!
Especially making fuel cost comparisons with NON-essentials like bottled water, and a host of other stuff - and THIS quote is typical of the bafflegab crap intended to soften energy costs and defuse oil profits concerns:
However, the industry's profitability remained below the profit margins of many other industries such as banking, financial services, pharmaceuticals, insurance and computer software and services.
Banking and financial services profits relate primarily to well-off stocks gamblers, not essential supplies of goods that are the basic necessity of operation of our country and society.
Pharmaceuticals is another runaway profit area where the well-off are not particularly hamstrung by rising costs - but poorer classes are - and THAT industry also could use some oversight and regulation.
Comparing the vastly frivelous and non-essesential computer profits to that of energy is REALLY grasping at straws as far as oil profit justification is concerned!
Banking and financial services profits relate primarily to well-off stocks gamblers
I would think there is not many that would disagree with you. Kind of makes you wonder don't it ?? Do you suppose Big oil is reinventing themselves from providers of basic necessity to providers of luxury materials ?? When you read their justifications for the recent explosion of profits, they are quick to compare their profits to Bill Gates. .
I would think there is not many that would disagree with you. Kind of makes you wonder don't it ?? Do you suppose Big oil is reinventing themselves from providers of basic necessity to providers of luxury materials ?? When you read their justifications for the recent explosion of profits, they are quick to compare their profits to Bill Gates. .
Why are you all so stuck on "big oil" having to justify their profits? There is nothing wrong with companies making profits, in fact, that is the American way and is critical to our way of life. Without the incentive of potential profit, we would not have made any of the technological and industrial advancements which have led to our current way of life. Would you rather have to pay market price for fuel, or live in China? Not a hard decision in my book. "Big Oil" has the same right as every other person and company to make a profit without having to justify it, it is the American way.
Mark
Mark
Would you rather have to pay market price for fuel, or live in China? Not a hard deci
So. . I disagree. . Now I am invited to live in China. . Nice...
I pay whatever the market is for fuel. I don't cry about it. I DO object to BIG OIL crying that the profit margin on their very necessary comodity is not nearly as good as Bill Gates makes on Windows...
So. . I disagree. . Now I am invited to live in China. . Nice...
I pay whatever the market is for fuel. I don't cry about it. I DO object to BIG OIL crying that the profit margin on their very necessary comodity is not nearly as good as Bill Gates makes on Windows...
mschoenheider said:
NO one has a "right" to a monopoly of a critical resource - especially one that is crucial to the normal function of an entire nation! And especially when it has been demonstrated over, and over again, that MUCH of what we are complaining about here IS monopoly and manipulation to create artificial crisis, "shortages" and "emergencies".
SO, lets say YOUR wife or other loved one is critically ill with a terminal illness that *I* have medicine to stop in it's tracks. It's well known that my "profit margin" is obscene, and that I have bought out or forced my competitors out of business, and only produce a limited amount of my serum in order to keep the price high - and YOU want and NEED that medicine badly, but the price is too much for you to afford.
Would YOU applaud my "American Capitalistic" free enterprise - or be seriously hostile and vocal at my greed and manipulation that exposes you to so great a potential personal loss?
You and I are the "husband" in this scenario - the dying loved one is this nation - and the one manipulating the "cure" is Big Oil, in hand with partners in our own government as well as big players overseas.
THEY don't care about this country either - just what's in it for THEM! Their loyalties are NOT to a government or nation, but to THEMSELVES!
Is THIS really the "free enterprise Capitalism" you support and admire?
I gotta tell ya, I'm VERY puzzled at the motivations that drive a few members here to defend the "right" of Big Oil to monopolize and defraud our nation...
To me, it very much resembles a guy being ROBBED expressing open admiration as to how well his mugger handles his gun!
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There are a few things that haven’t been mentioned yet about the cost/demand of diesel fuel being greater than that of gas! Diesel owners are in competition with the Military, the war in Iraq, the Merchant Fleet, the Trucking Industry and yes the US Government.
The Military has been for years trying to standardize on one common fuel- Diesel
About 5 or 6 years ago the Navy did away with the “old” Boiler Tender and associated Steam Rates.
Today if you aren’t on a Nuclear Powered Aircraft Carrier or a Nuclear Powered Submarine, you are on a Diesel or Turbine Powered ship. I. E. Diesel or Jet fuel
The same thing has happened to the Merchant Fleet, doing away with the “old” steam power and being converted to Diesel. I understand that engines of this size use a different grade of diesel though. Check out this site- http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccsshb/12cyl/
What about all the 18-wheelers that are on the roads? Wouldn’t it be more fuel efficient to ship cross-country freight by rail? Then for flexibility use trucks for local, say 200-mile radius from a distribution center.
Then the other thing is if demand is approximately equal to supply, why should the oil companies WANT to spend billions of dollars to build more refineries that would increase supply and ultimately decreasing the retail price?
In the ten or more years that it would probably take to design/construct a new refinery the U. S. Gov. would change the specifications of the diesel fuel at least five times.
Just my $0. 02
The Military has been for years trying to standardize on one common fuel- Diesel
About 5 or 6 years ago the Navy did away with the “old” Boiler Tender and associated Steam Rates.
Today if you aren’t on a Nuclear Powered Aircraft Carrier or a Nuclear Powered Submarine, you are on a Diesel or Turbine Powered ship. I. E. Diesel or Jet fuel
The same thing has happened to the Merchant Fleet, doing away with the “old” steam power and being converted to Diesel. I understand that engines of this size use a different grade of diesel though. Check out this site- http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccsshb/12cyl/
What about all the 18-wheelers that are on the roads? Wouldn’t it be more fuel efficient to ship cross-country freight by rail? Then for flexibility use trucks for local, say 200-mile radius from a distribution center.
Then the other thing is if demand is approximately equal to supply, why should the oil companies WANT to spend billions of dollars to build more refineries that would increase supply and ultimately decreasing the retail price?
In the ten or more years that it would probably take to design/construct a new refinery the U. S. Gov. would change the specifications of the diesel fuel at least five times.
Just my $0. 02
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Gary - K7GLD said:
Do you even know what a monopoly is? One SINGLE company.
Gary - K7GLD said:
Who do you think developed the medicine? The company who had the financial incentive (potential profits) to invest and risk huge amounts of money to develop new drugs.
Where do you think oil comes from? Do you think it is easy to find? Do you think it is easy to develop the technology to refine and process crude? Why do you think companies explore for oil, and develop new methods of extraction and processing? Could it be because there is a potential for financial reward for their efforts? Where do think we would be without the potential for individual profit? We wouldn't be the most technologically advanced country on the planet. Our average quality of life would be far worse than it is today.
Gary - K7GLD said:I gotta tell ya, I'm VERY puzzled at the motivations that drive a few members here to defend the "right" of Big Oil to monopolize and defraud our nation...
To me, it very much resembles a guy being ROBBED expressing open admiration as to how well his mugger handles his gun!
My motivations are simply, I want to share my opinions, and maybe even get a few people to think on a little bigger scale than their own wallet. It is very easy to follow the masses and complain about things that seem very simple on the outside, but are actually very complicated once you consider them deeper.
richardcoxid said:
There are many oil companies which extract, refine and distribute fuel in the US. If there was one company, we would have a monopoly. In that case, there would be very little incentive for the oil company to raise production. However, there are about 155 refineries in the country, owned by more than 50 companies. Each company would like to increase how much fuel they produce to add to their revenues. If an average refinery doubles its capacity, the overall national production will increase slightly, the price will decrease slightly, but the refinery's revenues will increase significantly.
The longest part in building a new refinery is obtaining the required air permits. This can take anywhere from 5-10 years. Design and construction of the refinery itself would take another few years. Government regulations for diesel fuel do change frequently, but refinery unit changes for these regulations are typically made as needed.
There is actually a new refinery project which is in the final stages of permitting. The project is called Clean Fuels Yuma, and may begin construction in the next year or two in southern Arizona. Will that refinery, if constructed, solve our energy problems? No, but it is a good start.
No technically there is not a monopoly but if believe that big oil did not and has not used this situation to the utmost advantage then you are fooling youself. And yes we could use more refineries, but does it not seem strange that there is always some refining capacity down due to some sort of accident or "routine maintenance" and that the refineries involved seem to rotate between companies and that none of the above has happened since the prices sky rocketed? Yes every company deserves to make a profit but don't you think that 9 B in a quarter is a little much? Privately even the oil company execs think so!
No technically there is not a monopoly but if believe that big oil did not and has not used this situation to the utmost advantage then you are fooling youself.
ABSOLUTELY!
Ducking behind technical textbook definitions is pure evasion and denial of the MANY individual instances posted MANY times in threads and forums like this one, as well as abundant supporting articles in various media!
All it takes to effectively construct a working monopoly is a working agreement - not necessarily in written form - between appropriate business heads - totally illegal in cases like discussed here, but the steady stream of memos, quotes and specific instance related by individuals out in the field in positions to know, CONSISTENTLY point to a dedicated and focused backround intent by big oil and its confederates to totally manipulate supplies and refining - and PROFIT!
The ideal example of Capitalism and free enterprise, is to design, develop and then manufacture a new or better product and then sell it at a decent competitive profit in relation to the competition, if you want to stay in business, and respect the good will of your customers in a responsible and manner with good conscience.
It does NOT include various methods of forcing out competitors at gunpoint in order to control your particular market, with the ultimate goal of eventually naming your own price and holding your customer base hostage for that price!
Read the book or see the movie "Tucker" for a graphic example of the above!
In non-essentials, such a company probably wouldn't last anyway - but in CRITICAL items closer to actual necessity for an entire nation - indeed the WORLD, such activities eventually MUST be under better moral control than the businesses themselves for the survival of the societies involved.
Indeed, the sensitivity of SOME materials become more than a mere commodity-for-profit, and the producers and distributors reach a point where they become more STEWARDS entrusted with a critical and limited commodity than simply owners involved in a wholesale/retail business-for-profit.
And sometimes, those stewards selfishly ABUSE their public trust, and changes must be made! If someone "owned" the air, and was strangling you for not being able to pay the price, would you congratulate him on his "right" under "free enterprise" to do so, and quietly die - or put up a fight?
Oil based energy has become more than simply a frivelous "product" owned and distributed by a handful of "owners" or governments - it has become far more like the air we breathe and the water we drink - and NO ONE can or should be allowed to "own" those, or control their distribution or name their own price for it!
We understand the principle as it applies to air and water - and recognize government controls over public airwaves (FCC), Public Utilities (PUC) and a number of issues in the best interests of society as a whole - why do some have problems with the energy that we ALSO rely upon to survive?
Anyone deliberately choosing to NOT see the difference between the natural resource of energy this country and others RUN on, and Levis or computer programs, is being deliberately dense or attempting to confuse the issue.
ON a related issue, in earlier decades, carriage and bicycle makers such as Studebaker and others, saw the handwriting on the wall, and realized that if they wanted to stay in the transportation business, they would have to develop a vehicle conforming to the growing trend towards engine-driven vehicles.
In other words, the current business they had been successfully involved in was drying up, and they would either have to branch out into something new and different, or close their doors.
WHY is it that big oil has so steadfastly dragged their heels and resisted intense research and development of alternative energy sources on a massive scale? It would SEEM to be in their best interest to do so, and then be the major supplier of THAT technology and product, just as they have been with oil-based energy...
Could it be they like the game they are already in control of, and really have no FEAR of the future?
ABSOLUTELY!
Ducking behind technical textbook definitions is pure evasion and denial of the MANY individual instances posted MANY times in threads and forums like this one, as well as abundant supporting articles in various media!
All it takes to effectively construct a working monopoly is a working agreement - not necessarily in written form - between appropriate business heads - totally illegal in cases like discussed here, but the steady stream of memos, quotes and specific instance related by individuals out in the field in positions to know, CONSISTENTLY point to a dedicated and focused backround intent by big oil and its confederates to totally manipulate supplies and refining - and PROFIT!
The ideal example of Capitalism and free enterprise, is to design, develop and then manufacture a new or better product and then sell it at a decent competitive profit in relation to the competition, if you want to stay in business, and respect the good will of your customers in a responsible and manner with good conscience.
It does NOT include various methods of forcing out competitors at gunpoint in order to control your particular market, with the ultimate goal of eventually naming your own price and holding your customer base hostage for that price!
Read the book or see the movie "Tucker" for a graphic example of the above!
In non-essentials, such a company probably wouldn't last anyway - but in CRITICAL items closer to actual necessity for an entire nation - indeed the WORLD, such activities eventually MUST be under better moral control than the businesses themselves for the survival of the societies involved.
Indeed, the sensitivity of SOME materials become more than a mere commodity-for-profit, and the producers and distributors reach a point where they become more STEWARDS entrusted with a critical and limited commodity than simply owners involved in a wholesale/retail business-for-profit.
And sometimes, those stewards selfishly ABUSE their public trust, and changes must be made! If someone "owned" the air, and was strangling you for not being able to pay the price, would you congratulate him on his "right" under "free enterprise" to do so, and quietly die - or put up a fight?
Oil based energy has become more than simply a frivelous "product" owned and distributed by a handful of "owners" or governments - it has become far more like the air we breathe and the water we drink - and NO ONE can or should be allowed to "own" those, or control their distribution or name their own price for it!
We understand the principle as it applies to air and water - and recognize government controls over public airwaves (FCC), Public Utilities (PUC) and a number of issues in the best interests of society as a whole - why do some have problems with the energy that we ALSO rely upon to survive?
Anyone deliberately choosing to NOT see the difference between the natural resource of energy this country and others RUN on, and Levis or computer programs, is being deliberately dense or attempting to confuse the issue.
ON a related issue, in earlier decades, carriage and bicycle makers such as Studebaker and others, saw the handwriting on the wall, and realized that if they wanted to stay in the transportation business, they would have to develop a vehicle conforming to the growing trend towards engine-driven vehicles.
In other words, the current business they had been successfully involved in was drying up, and they would either have to branch out into something new and different, or close their doors.
WHY is it that big oil has so steadfastly dragged their heels and resisted intense research and development of alternative energy sources on a massive scale? It would SEEM to be in their best interest to do so, and then be the major supplier of THAT technology and product, just as they have been with oil-based energy...
Could it be they like the game they are already in control of, and really have no FEAR of the future?
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"Drive fewer miles, carpool, buy a more fuel efficient car,"
In other words, knuckle under, stop breathing, and die to honor "free enterprise"... LOWER *your* standard of life in order to permit big oil to continue to prosper and buy BIGGER cars, and travel MORE...
"Let them eat cake... " I believe the expression was.
(whatever DID happen to that gal, anyway... )
In other words, knuckle under, stop breathing, and die to honor "free enterprise"... LOWER *your* standard of life in order to permit big oil to continue to prosper and buy BIGGER cars, and travel MORE...
"Let them eat cake... " I believe the expression was.
(whatever DID happen to that gal, anyway... )
CHolman said:
... . and THIS ^^^ my friends, is the fundamental problem with American politics.
Some guy might be all wrong for the country, and have his head up his butt, but he arranged for me to receive $165 of TAXPAYER money-- that's money that came from OTHER AMERICANS-- so "He's got my vote".
Let me ask you this: what if Sen DoMenitche (sic) TOOK that $165 from you and gave it to someone else? I'm sure that other person wouldn't mind, and he'd "give the Sen his vote for sure" just like you would.
But how would it feel to be on the other end of things??
There may or not be an oil company monopoly and price fixing however-
For years the oil companies have used the excuse that fuel prices have to go up in the fall because they have to “stockpile” heating oil for the coming winter. The last time that I looked at the calendar October is in the fall and this is after the shortage caused by Katrina, Rita and now fuel prices have been decreasing for the last month! Can somebody explain this unknown phenomena? Is October not in the fall anymore?
After the oil companies announced their quarterly profits (at the high point of the fuel price run up) Congress announced that they were going to hold hearings about the “Excess” oil company profits. Low and behold for some unexplained reason fuel prices started to drop the next day! Can somebody also explain this unknown phenomena?
Here in Idaho every few years including this year after Congresses earlier announcement the Attorney General has been holding a “price fixing” investigation. Also immediately after the Attorney Generals announcement the price begins to drop. That is another one that I can’t figure out.
Now that the price of Gas is about $1. 00 less/gal (diesel has decreased to only about $0. 60/gal MORE than gas) I don’t hear the oil companies crying that they are going broke and can’t meet the cost of production and can’t pay their employees!
For years the oil companies have used the excuse that fuel prices have to go up in the fall because they have to “stockpile” heating oil for the coming winter. The last time that I looked at the calendar October is in the fall and this is after the shortage caused by Katrina, Rita and now fuel prices have been decreasing for the last month! Can somebody explain this unknown phenomena? Is October not in the fall anymore?
After the oil companies announced their quarterly profits (at the high point of the fuel price run up) Congress announced that they were going to hold hearings about the “Excess” oil company profits. Low and behold for some unexplained reason fuel prices started to drop the next day! Can somebody also explain this unknown phenomena?
Here in Idaho every few years including this year after Congresses earlier announcement the Attorney General has been holding a “price fixing” investigation. Also immediately after the Attorney Generals announcement the price begins to drop. That is another one that I can’t figure out.
Now that the price of Gas is about $1. 00 less/gal (diesel has decreased to only about $0. 60/gal MORE than gas) I don’t hear the oil companies crying that they are going broke and can’t meet the cost of production and can’t pay their employees!
ok back to the orginal point, when I wrote this post there was less than a . 30/gal spread between gasoline and diesel on the futures market, why are we still paying . 75 more/gallon than gas, can anyone give me a logical explaniation?? who and why is someone pocketing the extra . 45/gal this is the million dollar question
Talked to a buddy that drive truck hauling fuel
he said, the reason for the difference in fuel prices was mearly a mis caculate in demand based on the hurracane stuff.
The braced for the worst, shifted production to gas, no one bought gas once the crude supply lines were back to normal. and they can't make diesel, and have a ton of gas sitting there. .
something like that
he said, the reason for the difference in fuel prices was mearly a mis caculate in demand based on the hurracane stuff.
The braced for the worst, shifted production to gas, no one bought gas once the crude supply lines were back to normal. and they can't make diesel, and have a ton of gas sitting there. .
something like that
What to explain, it supply and demand, you demand and they supply, after all it a lubricatent so they can slip it to ya.
Seriously there engineering the shortages?? to keep diesel up because people can't cut back much on it like gasolines. Contractors and trucker need to work, so they buy at any price.
I remember driving to lake tahoe during the gasoline embaro back in the 70's I was on empty and figure i be spending the night in the snow at trukee. and a texaco station was open at 11:00PM, I rolled in and payed a $1. 75 a gallon in 1975 and was the happy man on earth that night.
Seriously there engineering the shortages?? to keep diesel up because people can't cut back much on it like gasolines. Contractors and trucker need to work, so they buy at any price.
I remember driving to lake tahoe during the gasoline embaro back in the 70's I was on empty and figure i be spending the night in the snow at trukee. and a texaco station was open at 11:00PM, I rolled in and payed a $1. 75 a gallon in 1975 and was the happy man on earth that night.
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