Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) pumps, lines & whatnot

[Mopar-muscle]

i'll say it again ... huh ???

i don't claim to be a rocket sciencist or even pretend to know alot about diesels , but between shifts ? maybe you std shift guys have this problem but with an auto when my foots on the firewall there ain't any doubt in my mind where the fuel is going . maybe its a problem also with the 2001 auto when the computer defuels , but the low pressure pump in the VP44 is mechnical (?) if the pump input is spinning , then the low level pump is spinning , anything not being used is backpressure and is being dumped out the overflow valve , at least thats how i see it .

from what i was told the VP$$ failures were caused by bad machining practices at bosch , tight tolerance and not beburring the rotary valve well enough , add a fueling box post electronics and thats whats killing the pumps .

again we could go round and round on this , till we find out what is exactly going on, its a guess . all i know is there is fuel flowing in and with the tests i ran there is fuel returning to the tank .

 

[csutton7]

Todd T--if I read your post right-and maybe it's a typo, but is it due to starvation or not--you're kind of contradictory with the statement-"not due to starvation" and then later "the pump is not getting enough fuel between shifts"--that sounds like some sort of starvation is happening--and are you talking about the lift pump or VP44--I have to agree with Mopar Muscle that it doesn't make sense--please clarify if you can---chris

 

[BIG BOB]

Alright, I have followed this thread since it started, with a bid of confussion. I need to get a lift pump. On occasion the fuel pressure bounces between 0 and 5 PSI, then will stabilize at 12# idle, 9# cruise and 2. 5# at WOT. This bouncing has me really skeptical of the condition of my lift pump. I would rather replace in now before it completely goes out.

I know that the BG220HP is out. What is the final verdict on which pump to use? The 4140 Mallory? Carter HP? Summit? Holly 815? Stock Carter?

I've been leaning toward the Mallory 4140 or the Summit mainly because of the GPH of flow. I know that it need to be relocated back next to the fuel tank and lines replaced, I just don't know which lift pump to get.

What do the R&D specialist say?

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[This message has been edited by BIG BOB (edited 05-02-2001). ]

 

[Mopar-muscle]

CCahill , that info is in this thread , DD1's a DDTTPM and hot PE , with the stock fuel pickup , -6 line to an unmodified factory filter housing and stock line with unmodified banjos to the VP44 with the factory lift pump mounted back at the tank and powered by factory voltage ( we just lengthened the wires) no lower than 2 psi at WOT . i had the same thing with the stock lift pump and DD3's , EZ and hot PE with all but the last banjo fitting removed , 3psi at WOT . got it up to 6 with the carter HP , now know that i really didn't need that pump . i put 370hp to the ground on a dynojet that could only simulate a 5000 lb. load with the TC unlocked , plenty of fuel .

 

[csutton7]

Big Bob--my two cents, which will be scoffed at by others, is any gerotor pump that is around a 100 gph and above with a return line is my way of plumbing right now--I think the gerotor is of stronger design, but it's still a debate if ya need one that pumps that much(depends on your HP I think), but that's what I think for now--the Mallory has been proven to last at least a year and would be a good choice--- chris

 

[Un-Hemi]

Big Bob, I concur with Chris. A gerotor pump would be my choice; At the moment, the Mallory 4140 would be my choice, also. I wouldn't get too concerned about changing the return line with this lift pump; I would try it out first, and see if it will support all that power you are capable of producing.

On my truck, I would install a filter/water separator/heater between the tank and the relocated Mallory pump, mount a second after-pump filter down by the lift pump, and run a good line right to the VP-44.

The other option would be to mount a filter/water sepaarator between the tank and the relocated lift pump, and run a good line up the the stock filter/heater. Drilling or eliminating the banjos would be prudent.

Power for the lift pump should be supplied by extending the wiring from the original lift pump's location. The ECM is doing its own thing with the lift pump at startup, and I don't think it's wise to fool with this. Just use an adequate size of wire to minimize voltage drop at the relocated pump. Most guys overlook how important this is. I personally would use #12 wire, but that's cuz I'm an electric weenie. Besides, everyone knows that bigger is better!

FWIW #ad
YMMV, etc.

Tom

Gawd! another hour-long post.


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Tom Glover - VE7DQ, C-GWTG
99 QC SLT, LWB 4x2, ETC/DGP, Wht/Agate, etc.

[This message has been edited by TommyTurbosaurus (edited 05-02-2001). ]

 

[Un-Hemi]

Mike, thanks for the numbers! If the BSFC is . 4 lbs/bhp/hr at 3300 rpm, then at 215 hp, the engine is burning 86 lb/hr. That's 12. 28 gallons per hour. Diesel fuel weighs approximately 7 lb per gallon (Jet A is what weighs 7 lb/gal).
MM, you weren't far off with your estimation of 15 gallons per hour. Or did you know all along??
More fuel in the fire! #ad
#ad
#ad

Tom

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Tom Glover - VE7DQ, C-GWTG
99 QC SLT, LWB 4x2, ETC/DGP, Wht/Agate, etc.

[This message has been edited by TommyTurbosaurus (edited 05-02-2001). ]

 

[Bill Kondolay]

Hey guys
I did not get the chance to install the flow meter today, but i did have the pressure gauge hooked up after i installed the DD supermentals injectors, i must say when i first say when i first fired up the truck and went for a short road test with the fuel pressure gauge hooked up, i was kind of shocked to see my pressures going all over the place.

First i was shocked, i better tell you about this first before some one else rats me out, it always helps when you tighten up the injector lines.
Diesel fuel works much better when it goes to the injectors rather than on the road.

Considering this was an R&D project he cant laugh to loud at me as i did learn something.

The injectors are also part of part of the restriction. My fuel pressure was bouncing between 11psi - 7psi just cruising , with 4 of the injector lines loose.

After tightening up the lines, the pressure at an idle was 11 psi, crusing was down to 9 psi, at wot it was 0 psi.

This is with the oem pump mounted back by the tank.

Tomorrow i will mount on the Carter hp pump by the tank.

I still have all the oem banjo bolts and lines from the filter to the vp44 pump.

Talk to you guys tomorrow.

Bill

PS , there may be hope for my fuel system after all with the dd supermental injectors.
Maybe i can justify the $8000 i have spent so far. I dont think Shanti or my business partner John are buying into this anyway.



[This message has been edited by Bill Kondolay (edited 05-02-2001). ]

 

[Un-Hemi]

Bill, The engine must be clean albeit smelly.

At least you didn't drop a spray can four feet onto your brand-newly painted tailgate that was laying on the floor like I did yesterday. Groan #ad


Thanks for the report!

[This message has been edited by TommyTurbosaurus (edited 05-02-2001). ]

[This message has been edited by TommyTurbosaurus (edited 05-02-2001). ]

 

[csutton7]

little clarification on my return line setup--I haven't touched the factory return line, but instead I ran a -8 return from my regulator, which is just past the VP44, back to the tank and it's tied into the overflow filler tube where it turns to rubber--totally separate so as not to interfere with the factory return---chris

 

[Todd T]

ok here is some clarification, yes i was talking about the VP44.

and what i meant was that the VP44 is not getting fuel internally based on its design, when the throttle is closed. it doesnt pass fuel again until the throttle is reopened.

to go a little further, what I was told, is that the pumps that he has examined after failures, according to the drivers of them, were working fine, and the truck had plenty of power until a gear change, then the power went away. his theory is that the pump is not lubricating properly while the throttle is closed for a gear change. (it is only allowing anough fuel to idle, to flow to the injectors) but the RPM's are still tremendous inside at the rotor head.

now to apply that "theory" to an automatic truck, I can't do... maybe someone else can pick it up here.

I am only passing along information that came to me from someone who I thought, should(does)know about this subject. how many of these trucks have failed VP44's do to starvation, compared to the amount that were "really" do to a lift pump going bad or bad already... ?? and out of those, how many were automatics and how many manuals... ??

dont mix the facts up here guys, did they fail simply from bad/inadequate designing, or did they fail because something else did... #ad

 

[Todd T]

well this is interesting... . the silence that is.

I still would like to know some facts on who has lost one and what the circumstances around it were. the guys I have talked to (2) lost their pumps do to lift pumps, one was real weak, and the other was totally out.
I have talked to 2 reputable people, one of which, rebuilds the VP44's and has also done warranty and R&D work for Dodge/Cummins and they claim what I have told you.

I just dont want to go throwing good money after a ghostly problem to try and "prevent' it, thats all. has anyone lost their vp44 pump do to "it" failing, and if so what truck was it in IE: auto/manual and when did it occurr? and with what mods to it.

its one thing to do these mods for more power, but to put fear into everyone that their pumps are no good, is another. it scares them away from these trucks, and the aftermarket products. I think we have derrived that, the pump failures are not from the Prime-loc's, but look at what this has done to them in the interim.

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Todd,
2001 Q-cab SB 4x4 5spd 3. 55's,PowerMax3 adj. , A pillar Boost/EGT,4" turboback exhaust,custom built aluminum airbox W/K&N-RE0860 through the cowl, 310HP/675ft-lbs and more to come...

[This message has been edited by Todd T (edited 05-07-2001). ]

 

[Mopar-muscle]

todd , i haven't had a VP fail and don't personally know anyone that has , i've even run out of fuel twice , mine is still ok .

as far as the lift pump goes , they are failing because of where DC has installed them , i called carter twice and even in the directions it states to put the lift pump as close to the tank as physically possible . on a std wheel base truck theres 9 feet of pickup tube lenght and on a long wheel base theres close to 11 ft , we all know electric pumps prefer to push than pull , the line after the pump is only 6 inches long on my 2000 , this is not hysteria , its plain and simple facts .

as far as your reputable source , i see one flaw , NO ONE is allowed to rebuild the VP44 , all pumps go back to bosch , i have been told this by more than one bosch shop , anyone that is doing it ,is doing it on their own and without any technical assistance or literture from bosch . the statements they make may be true , but it would only be a stick problem as an auto equipped ram is not disengaging the drivelne from the engine on a shift and the driver is not lifting the throttle during the shift .



[This message has been edited by Mopar-muscle (edited 05-08-2001). ]

 

[Todd T]

ok now we are getting somewhere. the VP44 is letting go because the lift pump is mounted in the wrong place. and if what you are claiming is true, then they would be failing more in the auto's, because they milk the lift pump of fuel, without a break in between shifts to recover. right? are you sure the PCM/ECM doesnt de-fuel during shifts on an auto?

as far as rebuilding Bosch pumps, I had one in my hands 2 weeks ago one that was rebuilt by one of the people resposible for matting the Dodge and Cummins together, and at one point was having Dodges sent to him from dealers, all over the country to do tuning on them, when they came in with "low Power" complaints(thats right, an outside shop, authorized to do warranty work) and he is currently under contract with GM to test "to failure" the Duramax diesel. so wether he is backed by Bosch or not is irrelevant, as he could probably teach them a few things.
BTW
the pump I had was for sale, its Remanufactured (correctly) and comes with a warranty.

MM I'm not trying to start a war here, just trying to keep an objective view of this whole thing, I dont want to go out and spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars to correct a problem that in reality, may not even rear its head for most. or could be fixed by moving the lift pump back to the tank, or piggy backing an equal pump (in specs)at the tank to feed the lift pump.

Have a Good Day #ad




[This message has been edited by Todd T (edited 05-07-2001). ]

 

[csutton7]

Todd T--we know Jeff Clark's failed--symptoms=extremely hard starting after truck was driven(warm) and then shutoff-it wouldn't start---
That's the only one that comes to mind right now...
this thread has gone towards the VP44 and I haven't seen any evidence where the VP44 has been mentioned as failing, but more on what does it do, what can it do and how to prevent failure--right now we have so little info on the thing that most of us can't even comment on it--but once the that CD is in the hands of TT(I think) we hopefully will know the answers to these things---I don't think we are scaring people away--just ginving info based on our findings to prepare them for the few shortcomings these trucks have ---chris

 

[Mopar-muscle]

todd , i'm not looking for a war either , i'm just a bit frustrated at some of the monday morning quarter backing going on . a few people , yourself included with your SOURCE , are swatting the hornets nest and running off leaving those that have actually tested things in the wake and setting us off on a new tangent when they already know the answer . why is your source not coming forward ?

as far as the autos having to defuel , the only ones i know of are the 2001's with the 235 hp ETC , if what your source says is true then the pre 2001 autos have the best chance of limited failure .

go back and read the post i put up with the FLOW numbers , there is no MILKING of the inlet fuel of the VP44 , it uses all it wants and either returns it after cooling or creates a restriction which shows up as PRESSURE at the inlet to the VP44 .

testing has already proven that the stock lift pump and factory fuel lines are capable of feeding a moderately hungary , 500 plus HP in my case , cummins with fuel to spare once reloated back at the tank and you open up the banjo bolt restrictions .

this will cost you maybe $100 if you do most all the work yourself , find a reasonable parts source and ... this will hit a nerve or two ... for go the GLITZ and EXPENSE of braided steel lines . i've spent maybe 350 ,i chalk it up to R+D , but i may be able to return a few things to summit i never used , if thats the case then i'll be down to less than $200 and thats because i spent 90 bucks on a pump i really didn't need .

 

[Un-Hemi]

It was TXRam that was ordering the CD. I'll be most excited if he gets it! I've been told that Bosch is pretty tight with their technical information.
Tom

 

[csutton7]

TT--thanks for setting me straight--I knew it was someone with a T just couldn't quite remember---sorry TXRam for not remembering and for not going back and finding the info--chris

 

[Un-Hemi]

... ... . Well? Is that it? Has everyone burned out? Are there any more profundities out there? Bill K, did you get some readings? Are we in agreement? Has the battle been won? Is the dragon slain? Have I missed something? Where am I? More importantly, where's my beer? #ad
#ad


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Tom Glover - VE7DQ, C-GWTG
99 QC SLT, LWB 4x2, ETC/DGP, Wht/Agate, etc.

[This message has been edited by TommyTurbosaurus (edited 05-10-2001). ]

 

[Bill Kondolay]

My life was so simple dealing with transmisisons and tc's , all of our testing so far, basically indicated the stock pump will do the job for most dodge ram owners as is.

With a simple upgrade eze box , or equivilant upgrade, stock pump ok

eze with small inj. clean up banjo bolts or replace the lines.

eze,inj,fueling box move lift up next to the tank. up upgrade to maybe a 110 gph lift pump

SUPPER MENTAL INJECTORS Brandons 45 gallon drums on roof system should be ok. The return flow of 30gph under wot with dd 2,eze, edge hot box dropped to 25gph when I put in DD super mental injectors.

I'll do more testing after may maddness,I now know why dd does not sell those injectors.

Stefan ran the truck in 1/4 mile 15. 4 with DD SM inj & DDTT box.

Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Kondolay (edited 05-10-2001). ]