Guns, Bows, Shooting Sports, and Hunting Question for the shooters

[moparguy]

Some may have read my earlier post about the little Savage Axis 223 combo package I won at the local VFW. If not,, to summarize I won a 223 Savage Axis Bushnell 3x9 package gun that I've upgraded with a Timney trigger (currently at the lightest setting I can set with a degree of saftey, 1 1/2 lbs or so). I've also filled the hollow synthetic stock with epoxy and taken steps to firm it up to the max. The barrel is free floated with no interference points.



My challenge is every 5 shot group has a couple of flyers. At 300 yards this takes a pretty nice 1" group up to between 2 and 3". Today with dang near perfect conditions, off sand bags and me only touching the trigger, zero crosshair movement,,, I'm still getting a couple of flyers. Since I"m shooting factory loads (Fiocchi 40 gr. Vmax 3,650fps) which the little gun seems to like, and I don't have any reloading gear at camp in ND, today I tried a crutch, that being a Limbsaver rubber harmonic dampener. It did change point of impact but didn't tighten groups, I started out with the dampner (or potato as some call it) 3/4" from end of barrel, then moved in south 2 times in 1/2" increments with no improvements.



It really doesn't see to matter if I've just cleaned the barrel and fired a fouling shot or not. What I'm not done is fired each shot from a cold or even cool barrel. Usually by the time I get to 300 yds the barrel is noticeably warm/hot by the time I start and for sure by the time finish a five shot run.



Just wondering if anyone has any suggestions as to what to try next to eliminate the almost predictable flyers. The two attached images are typical, I do have several others are slightly better and worse.

 

[JLeake]

Next thing to check is the bedding screws torque and try it with several settings. It may need to be pillar bedded.

Try another brand of ammunition for starters and a different bullet weight. Barrels often can be picky.

3" groups at 300 yards are not bad (1 MOA), I would be happy with that given the gun is not a heavy barreled varmit / target rig

 

[NIsaacs]

Are your flyers always the #4 and 5th shot? If so I would say it is barrel heat related. A heavier bullet might stabilize better with a warm barrel. When I was reloading I used the Speer 52 gr hp in my Remington 788, 222 and Rugger 77, 22-250, however I was not as good a shooter as you at 300 yards. If that were my target I would be happy, flyers and all:-laf



Nick

 

[moparguy]

Thanks Guys, Nick you may be right. Unfortunately I forgot to bring a spotting scope from the last trip home so can't spot shots. Have to walk down to the target to check, which is a long winded way of saying I don't know which shots produce the flyers. I think the next time I'm at the range, I'm gonna make shots with 5 min. between each and see what happens.

JLeake, good advise. Unfortunately with factory ammo being dang hard to source I'm going to try an work with the 500 rds I have. Tried some Walmart 55 gr fmj that would onehole at 25 yds. Then open up to 3" at 100. Not good. Also tried factory Hornady at $1. 00 a round that showed promise, it's just too rich for me.

If the cool barrel doesn't work, I'll start shimming and see what happens.

 

[AMink]

Just a WAG, but are you shooting the 5 shots from the magazine? Try one at a time if you are. In the back of my dusty brain I think I remember something about spring tension etc. I could be crazy and it shouldn't matter, but a little more or less pressure on the bolt may change things at 300.

 

[BIGNASTY]

What is the time frame of the 5 shots?

 

[moparguy]

Big, on the older group (2"), I wasn't using a clip, just loading singles, probably 5 minutes plus for the run. The newer group I did use the clip, probably ran that one in a minute or so. Caught a lull in a light wind and took advantage of it. I'd been on the range for a couple hours, already shot 35 or so while playing with the Limbsaver dampener. I know they sound gimmicky but with a really light barrel like on the Axis I think it has potential,,, just haven't found the sweet spot yet.

As I posted above next time out I'm gonna try a group with 5 minutes between shots, then if no improvement I'll start shimming the barrel and play with that a while. No help there,, I'll experiment with the potato some more. Failing that,,,,may have to scrounge up some components and roll my own. Of course finding powder and bullets now is d--- near impossible. Locally it is impossible.

One of the highlights of Sundays outing was while waiting on the barrel to cool one time, I ran one 5 shot group through the Ruger Redhawk 44 (Leupold 2x) offhand at 25 yards and they were all in the black. And I had a audience. Miracles do happen!

 

[BIGNASTY]

Different guns like different things, on my 223 Rem Varmint Special I can run rounds in that almost continually for what seems like forever. Same gun in 22-250 can take 3 maybe 4 before it starts throwing fliers. Get a little caught up in Prairie Dog shoots and forget to let things cool down sometimes. I wouldn't know about the store bought ammo, I have as long as I can remember rolled my own, Dad started me out that way and it just kind of stuck.

Kind of weird that it threw the fliers to the opposite sides on the plates

 

[moparguy]

Different days and when I put the potato on I had to adjust to the right. Also on the older target there was a cross wind that may have messed with me a bit. I had a ribbon down range next to the backstop on a brush and did wait when necessary but,,,Hell who knows. Not me obviously!

That's really what I'm tuning up for is a dog hunt. Some of the locals have been popping off pretty good about Southern boys can't shoot and I just want to be ready

 

[BIGNASTY]

I have always wanted to go back East and go Ground Hog shooting They must not have heard about southern Bean field shooters knew some old boys from GA that were shooters!!!

 

[moparguy]

A lot of poor boys from the South literally grew up hunting. When I was in basic at Fort Polk in 1970, 3 of us Southern boys, two from Tennessee and lucky me fired expert with 1911's and M16's and M14s (don't ask why we got to shoot M14s but we did, as I recall we were some of the first at Polk to train on m16's May thru August was one hot summer) we got a three day pass and I went home. If I could have sold that pass I'd have been rich. Only thing is there wasn't enough money to buy it, I was ready to see Momma and home.

 

[Gunny]

I shoot in Competitions one of those being Benchrest. The groups you have posted show clearly that this load is out of tune. The key being the vertical spread of the group. Don't worry about the Horizontal, unless you are shooting over wind flags, and know how to compensate for the changes and know how to read the wind. Your vertical is the one you have some control over, if you are stuck shooting "Only" factory ammo you are just going to have to work on your technique. This will not help with the out of tune condition, only reloading will do that, but any Savage rifle should shoot a little under a minute even with factory ammo.

Roland

 

[HHhuntitall]

I'm seeing horizontal and vertical flyers, on both sides..... If they are random, then it's most likely the ammunition. If they are on the last two shots, it's the barrel contour. Shooting cold barrel will tell you. Looking at it, at 300 yds, using 40gr bullets, it's most likely either environmental affect or cartridge standard deviation, be it in the powder charge, bullet seating depth, bullet quality, or perhaps even bullet crimping pressure... ...

There is a reason why so many of us reload our own. The mass production has so many variables, if they aren't controlled tightly, that is what happens. Even "custom" ammo doesn't always work... ... For example, a few months back, I attended an F-class shoot in Tulsa, OK. A new guy shows up, who was most welcome, with a McMillan Custom competition rifle, chambered in 6. 5x284. He was shooting their ammo, as well. He was excited to shoot, and I was eager to see what the rifle would do..... needless to say, he spent most of his time chasing his tail, and it took 9 spotters to get him on paper... . After the match, he wanted to shoot at 600, so I hung around for that, too. Same story. So he moved to 100yds. It was shooting 1/2 MOA at 100..... Ok, so we moved it to 400, and it went to 15", or roughly 3. 5 MOA. Part of it was the rifle didn't like the ammo, and part of it was the squirrel on the trigger, but my point is that ammo is only part of the equation, as the rifle is only part of the equation.....

And on second glance, you say they are almost predictable... in what way? If you can predict where they are going to hit on what shot, that is a mechanical problem, such as bedding... .

 

[Gunny]

Well we don't know and for sure, and can't tell if these are flyers or not. What can be read into those groups is the load is out of tune for this rifle. Don't think the barrel contour is causing this, Savage has built at a minimum hundreds of these rifle, and maybe a lot more than that. If there was a problem with the barrel contour I am sure everyone would have heard about by now.

Because we don't know the conditions these groups were shot at we sure don't know if they are flyers are just wind. If the notes on the plate are correct and they were shot at 300 yds and the groups measured 2 1/2" and 2" respectfully then on the 2 1/2" group he shot 80% of a minute of angle. On the 2" group he shot 64% of a MOA. That's actually pretty good results for any factory rifle if you stop and think about it. I believe Savage Guarantee's MOA for any of there new rifles.

Start reloading this puppy and it could be a tack driver.

 

[HHhuntitall]

True, we don't know what we're dealing with here, and there are many factors to consider.

What I was referring to, barrel wise, was if this is a light contour barrel, say a #3 pencil looking thing, then the heat from firing a string of rounds will cause the barrel to distort, affecting accuracy. That was the reason I think he should shoot cold on three separate shots.

 

[Gunny]

While we do KNOW that heat will effect a barrel in many ways, I personally believe that barrel heat is not only not the bugger bear we have always been told( at least not to the effect that is commonly spoken too) and that it can be useful in some cases. As witness the "Cold" bore shot. I also don't believe that heat in the barrel even a wimpy sporter barrel is so pronounced as to effect a 5 shot group. If that is the case it is time for a new barrel.

In the two disciplines I shoot in F-Class and Long Range Benchrest barrels get hot and I mean so hot you cannot touch them. In one of my F-Class match rifles the cartridge I shoot is a real barrel burner. It is a wildcat cartridge 6. 5x06 Gibbs and I hope for 900 to a 1,000 rounds of "accurate" rounds down the barrel and then it is time for a new one. Barrels are after all expendaple just like bullets and primers there life is just so long and that's it.

The barrel I shoot in this rifle is something akin to a truck axle it is 32" long and 1. 250 straight no profile. In a typical match there are three relays, each relay being shot at 1,000 yds. You are allowed an unlimited number of sighters and then your 20 shots of record. For me a relay usually is somewhere between 6 to 10 sighter shots and then my shots of record. That is 26 to 30 shots in a very small amount of time. I usually ( depending on the pit service that day) shoot those 26 to 30 shots in 5 minutes, that's a lot of bullets shot pretty quick. That also is one of the reasons for the short barrel life.

The barrel right after a relay is so hot as I said you cannot touch it. I got to wondering just how hot is it really? So I took a Pyrometer and taped the sensor to the barrel 1 inch from the receiver, and had my spotter record the temp for each shot. The day we did this the outside temp was 96 degrees the barrel at the start was 101 degrees as the rifle was laying in direct sunlight. I then shot 30 shots just as fast as a normal relay 5 minutes. The temps climbed pretty quick and the barrel was at 146 degrees after three shots. It went on and climbed to a max of 178 degrees this was on shot 24 and it stayed there, never getting any hotter. I don't have a clue if 178 degrees is enough heat to harm anything in a Stainless Steele barrel, I do however remember my score for that 20 shot relay. I shot a 199 14X, only dropping one point is a good thing most days considering we shoot at a target with a 1/2 MOA x ring.

Now with that saidI also believe that shooting a 5 shot group and letting the barrel cool between shots would be a good thing and add a lot of information.

Roland

 

[HHhuntitall]

Roland,

We have a lot in common..... Niether of us have factory hammer forged barrels on our factory action, either... .

I have a 6. 5x06 RCBC Improved I'm pretty fond of. I've quit using that reamer for competition, mostly due to barrel life, and you lose a quarter of barrel life fireforming brass and developing loads... . The 6. 5x284 Norma is a better chambering for me, as I can get factory brass, and fireform while breaking in the barrel and starting to develop loads. It improves my barrel life significantly, I've found. I also am very fond of the . 284 Win, although quality brass is hard to find, and I've been using Lapua or Nosler 6. 5x284 and necking up to fireform.....

Barrel life is directly related to it's quality at time of manufacture, and no two are alike. I have found, in the many thousands of rifles I've shot, factory barrels are extremely tempermental, and often are prone to flaws that are more prone when hot. Those flaws can show up in cracks in the throat, between the lands in the bore, and often in distortion, where the muzzle can actually move several thousands, even tenths, from center when cold. Very seldom are factory barrels actually straight down the bore.....

And 178* is no where near hot enough to cause detrimental harm to a quality stainless barrel. If you were to drill that barrel down closer to the bore, you would find temps increasing exponentially. Metal temps inside the bore after firing can exceed 500+*..... That's dissipated through the mass of your barrel, hence the reason most match shooters shoot straight blanks or heavy contours, often with fluting, which theoretically dissipates heat faster.....