Replacement air filter and warranty problem

[LPChristensen]

I was at a local Mopar dealer the other day having some work done on a couple of TSB's, 23-025-3 for the window tint scratching and 19-008-03 for the vibration in the steering column. While there I spoke with the mechanic who had done the work on the power steering hose replacement TSB. During this conversation I said that I was going to start looking at a replacement for the factory air cleaner, a K&N, Afe or the Scotty Ram air, not sure yet because I had not yet researched it. The mechanic said to save my money and avoid a hassle. He said that the factory air cleaner, when maintained, was equal to or better than any aftermarket filter and that that he had replaced a few Cummins engines due to faulty aftermarket air cleaner operation and that there had been a couple of vehicles that they had withdrew the remaining warranty due to replacement of the factory air filter. Has anybody ever heard of this? I was amazed, I "assumed" that any of the high dollar, high tech air cleaners would be a step or two up from the factory air cleaner. Any thoughts?

 

[cpizz]

Go with the aFe Pro Guard 7. The K & N is a POS! Take a look at a K & N by holding it up to the light. You will see how many tiny holes are in it. That is where dirt can come in and cause a problem. DC is not going to cover that!

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

After a few thousand miles on my stock filter, a member here sent me his used K&N to use on my truck - it arrived somewhat dirty, but not enough to warrant cleaning and re-oiling - so I simply installed it as-is - but DID take a clean paper napkin and carefully swab out the neck area of the filter housing and inlet to the turbo to check for dirt accumulation at that point with the STOCK air filter.



Here's a shot of what that napkin looked like after swabbing:



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After a few thousand miles, I agian swabbed the same way, on a clean area of the SAME napkin I had carefully stored - here's THAT comparison, K&N area on the left:



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WHich side do you K&N haters prefer? Which would you rather see from YOUR truck?



Here's a shot of my turbo inlet after use with the K&N:



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Pretty TERRIBLE, huh... And lest there be any confusion, that inlet and the impellers are SPOTLESS, tho' shadows might make it appear otherwise...



And for the clincher, here's an oil analysis with the K&N installed - check the "Silicon" (dirt) portion of that report...



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SURE, you CAN get a defective K&N - as you might a STOCK filter - you MIGHT suffer "operator error" or carelessness, and improperly install or maintain one - BUT if you are reasonably competent and use reasonable care with a K&N - just as you should a STOCK filter, no reason to not expect YOUR results to be as good as mine and many other users here!



I for one, don't care in the slightest what filters others use, don't hold any K&N stock - brand loyalty or predjudice might be OK to a degree - but I have offered MORE than an irrational rant here - the PROOF is up above - check it out, and then make up your own mind - and also remember that dealership mechanics and techs have ALSO repeatably proven to be human and base THEIR "judgements" on predjudice and bad info as well - and *I* sure haven't heard of ANY Cummins engines being replaced directly because of air filter failure or poor efficiency...

 

[RAMINSPEED]

Originally posted by cpizz

Go with the aFe Pro Guard 7. The K & N is a POS! Take a look at a K & N by holding it up to the light. You will see how many tiny holes are in it. That is where dirt can come in and cause a problem. DC is not going to cover that!

I agree 100%

 

[sag2]

The K&N works fine IF maintained properly (just like the factory filter). I have seen several cases where engines were ruined, and warranty did not pay because of dirt in the intake.

And you just can't remove the K&N and take it in, the signs of lack of maintenance (dirt ingestion) are still going to be visible on the cylinders.

 

[DPKetchum]

I heard same argument about K&N on the 1st generation forum. I had one in my 1993 W250. I NEVER found ANY residue in the air box or tube etc. But that K&N filter sure would get NASTY. Towed all over out west with it for 6 years and ONLY two cleanings.

 

[rbattelle]

Let me begin by saying that I believe K&N makes an outstanding filter. I'll take that 1 step further by saying that cotton-based filters in general are "better" than paper filters. By "better" I don't mean necessarily better filtration, but factors like ease of use, re-usability, and flow rate come into play.



I would like to use a K&N (or AFE or some cotton filter brand) on my truck. What's stopping me is the Cummins FAQ which states:



Does DaimlerChrysler authorize the use of high-flow aftermarket air filters such as K&N with my Cummins engine?



No. DaimlerChrysler and Cummins do not recommend the use of increased flow air filters such as K&N, because they can allow contaminants into the intake that can ruin an engine (scoring the sides of the pistons, etc. )



If Cummins said it were okay to use, I'd be the first in line to get one. I'm even hesitant to get the Proguard 7. In my opinion, an aftermarket filter that you're going to pay good money for should provide a lower restriction and greater filtration efficiency than the stocker.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"And you just can't remove the K&N and take it in, the signs of lack of maintenance (dirt ingestion) are still going to be visible on the cylinders. "



WHICH is EQUALLY true with the stock paper filters, which WILL fail sooner in extreme conditions than the K&N - There was clear evidence in the factory installed stock paper filter on my truck that there was dirt leakage around the outer edges of the filters rim. Continued use and lack of attention in my case could have significantly accellerated engine wear with a STOCK filter - but guys don't whine/moan when their stockers leak - only if it has K&N stamped on it...



we really can't blame auto makers for not eagerly popping in a new engine every time a negligent or careless owner either improperly installs or maintains a vehicle, or a defective component creates a failure - and it can happen as easily with an OEM part as it can an aftermarket one...

 

[rbattelle]

One more thing: Gary's research is impressive... but what does Cummins know (or not know) that prevents them from endorsing such products?

 

[SWendell]

[



"Here's a shot of my turbo inlet after use with the K&N:

see previous pic

Pretty TERRIBLE, huh... And lest there be any confusion, that inlet and the impellers are SPOTLESS, tho' shadows might make it appear otherwise... "







Yep... shiny and spotless. (nicely sandblasted from that K&N):-laf



ONLY kiddin! With some common sense and proper use most aftermarkets will perform better tha OEM.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"One more thing: Gary's research is impressive... but what does Cummins know (or not know) that prevents them from endorsing such products?"



The more common sense question/statement, is what WE as consumers already know, which is THIS:



Cummins, or DC - or Ford and GM are NOT going to "recommend" or stand behind ANY aftermarket product THEY are not affiliated with or make money off of, PERIOD! They have liability and warranty issues, and ARE NOT going to warantee or authorize products over which they have no control and make no profit.



Is there a greater possibility that an aftermarket air filter MIGHT create a problem than an OEM one will NOT? *CERTAINLY*! we have been here long enoght to relize MANY owners do stupid and careless things - like pumping their fuel tanks ful of gasoline for instance - crap happens, and is likelier to happen with aftermarket and add-on stuff than with the OEM stuff - and if YOU were the manufacturer, what would YOU say when asked if "XYZ" aftermarket product was OK to use instead of what YOU sell for the same use?



This isn't rocket science - and we know full well why Cummins recommends precious LITTLE they don't themselves sell - and it hasn't necessarily to do with how good or bad the competing stuff actually is in real life operation...

 

[rbattelle]

Gary, please stop it. You're going to cost me more money running out and buying a high-flow filter.

 

[JHardwick]

I'll try to illustrate what I think Gary is saying.



Filter cleaner and oil is expensive stuff ... . no?



I bought the AFE for my Dodge and got to thinking later ... ... ..... I have a ton of K&N cleaner and oil that I used on my race engines! Got to be the same stuff right? It's a cotton filter, cotton has been around for years!



So, I contacted AFE via email and asked if the K&N cleaner and oil could be used instead of the AFE stuff ... ... ... ... . you guessed it! Not a chance! They actually claimed that the K&N stuff would damage their product and they would not stand behind it. It's a different formulation they say. I bet the only difference is the red dye in the K&N, LOL.

 

[cpizz]

Well I am going on my experience with K & N. I put one in a 2001 I had when the truck was brand new. After about 7500 miles I checked it because someone had told me that the filter let more air in as well as more dirt! Well, guess what? When I removed it there was a fine flour consistency dirt all over the impellers. I then held the filter up to the sun and you could see all the tiny pin sized holes in the filter. That was enough convincing for me! When I looked at the aFe filter I did not see all those pin size holes in it. Maybe they make K & N's better out in California.

 

[DPKetchum]

As I stated before I never found anything in my tune on my 93 or on impellers in 6 years with K&N but the 1 generation guys said same thing. Wasnt my experiance with one.

 

[Shooter]

Gary's scientific study did not start with wiping out all the dirt and junk in the intake from pre manufacturing dirt and contamination THEN doing the FEW thousand mile rewipe with fact filter.



My $. 02



Another $. 02



The 3rd gen air box is a whole lot different than the 2nd gen in filter fit.

Different parts of the country have different dust problems due to micron size of local dust.



ONE SIZE DOES NOT FIT ALL and the fitzalls fit nothing.

 

[SMorneau]

I don't hate K&N I just won't use them. Maintenance is critical and the technology is old (my 12V already has enough old technology).

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Lots of guys have good experiences with K&N, but there are definitely seriously flawed ones out there, probably more often than say AFE.



I had the RE-0880 cone filter on my 2001 which was preoiled at the factory and had the prefilter on it. That thing let a lot of dust through. It wasn't due to poor sealage, it was coming through the media. Silicate levels went up on my analysis (to around 14-16). I could wipe tons of dust out of the intake hose. I pitched it and put an Amsoil filter in and cured the problem.



Before I sold my 2001 I ran an AFE on it for awhile and it filtered very well too.



I think K&N's QC is not as good as AFE's or some of the others. I also think that paper filters are not all they're cracked up to be either.



Vaughn

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

As far as I am concerned, a BHAF, properly installed and maintained is the absolute BEST way to go - might go to one myself eventually. The filter/housing design on newer Dodge/Cummins trucks is FAR poorer than my old '91 in terms of total area and sealing ability. My oil analysis results on my '02 are not stabilized enough yet from break-in to be certain, and if total silicon levels don't get down to where they were on the '91, the BHAF will be my next filter...



I feel the K&N far too often gets a "bad rap" from guys who possibly were somewhat negligent in their application and maintenance - tho' I never did think the conical filters from K&N provided enough filtering area to be efficient. Good air filtration is a lot like bypass oil filtration - LOTS if filtering surface and LOW flow rates deliver cleaner filtering!

 

[Jeremiah]

RATS!

I been waitin' a long time to get this in. My problem is pack rats and which air filter will give 'em the most problem.



I'm still running a stock filter which, thanks to the last rat, got eaten up along with most of my under-hood insulation.



First, I found a nest beside the engine where it's nice and warm. Figgerin' it was a mouse, I pulled it out and set a trap with a piece of cheese on top of the engine. Next morning I opened the hood and there was the biggest RAT I've ever seen sittin' right where the trap used to be! He looked at me for a few minutes like "who the hell are you?" before calming crawling down into a fender well.



I couldn't find the mouse trap anywhere (not that it would have done any good against THIS sucker), so I got some D-CON and put it out. Next morning, same thing: the rat was sitting on top of the engine next to where the D-CON used to be.



So I went down to the local feed store and bought four smoke bombs that kill gophers and stuff like that. I set 'em off under the engine and they made enough smoke a neighbor a half mile away called to see if the fire department was needed.



Next morning, I went out in the carport and found where the RAT was building another nest. So much for D-CON and smoke bombs.



This time I went to the hardware store and bought a RAT trap and loaded it up with cheese. Next morning, there was the trap with no cheese and no rat in it.



So I tied more cheese on the trap. Wrapped it up real good too so there would be no way the rat could get it off without tripping the trap.



Well, next morning there was my rat, deader 'n' hell. I hauled him off and laid him on top of a boulder where the vultures could get him. Last I saw a couple of weeks ago, he was still on top of that rock! Not even the buzzards would touch 'im!



So my question is, am I better off stayin' with a stock filter or should I go ahead and get the aFe jobbie and make it easy for the next rat that comes along?