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Replacement for Getrag?
- Thread starter bigtoy
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nv4500 cost has gone way up !!! $2200. 00 new !!!
I"M converting mine now ! with a $400 AA bellhouseing & you good to go !
I have a 92 , getrage 130,000 miles for sale very good shape !! $500
I"M converting mine now ! with a $400 AA bellhouseing & you good to go !
I have a 92 , getrage 130,000 miles for sale very good shape !! $500
I swaped in the NV4500HD when my Getrag took a dump. I picked up the trans for $600 from salvage yard, and the bellhousing from advanced adaptors for $220. I live pretty close to their werehouse so i went and looked at the kit, lots of un-needed parts. I got the bellhousing only and used a piece of 3"x2" box steel to space the transmisson mount up. On the side of the NV4500HD where the transfer case lever goes (pass side), there is a small threaded hole, that is right where the lever should mount. I i drilled & taped the hole for a bigger bolt (if you use the size that is there, the bolt will break), and made a mount for the transfer case shifter. good luck
-Jason
-Jason
Yup, the NV4500 seems to be the one to go to... . my brother put one in his 92' along with a 13 1/4" SBC clutch conversion as well.
He is flat out luvin it too..... he said that he wished he'd done this years ago.
The stock Sachs clutch served him well in the first few years because he hadn't goon to goofy with HP mods but it was time to replace it.
Now, he can back uphill with a load on and it's smooth as silk. I don't know what the final costs were but he said he'd do it again in a blink.
pb... .
edit: do some searching and hunting on something too... there is/was a problem with some of the aftermarket bellhousings/adapters(?) not lining up with it's mount on the back of the engine. I KNOW there's some info on it around here so I'll try to do some digging here and, maybe the guys can fill in the blanks while I'm pokin around... .
He is flat out luvin it too..... he said that he wished he'd done this years ago.
The stock Sachs clutch served him well in the first few years because he hadn't goon to goofy with HP mods but it was time to replace it.
Now, he can back uphill with a load on and it's smooth as silk. I don't know what the final costs were but he said he'd do it again in a blink.
pb... .
edit: do some searching and hunting on something too... there is/was a problem with some of the aftermarket bellhousings/adapters(?) not lining up with it's mount on the back of the engine. I KNOW there's some info on it around here so I'll try to do some digging here and, maybe the guys can fill in the blanks while I'm pokin around... .
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The best thing to do is rebuild the Getrag PROPERLY and put it back in... .
There is nothing wrong with the Getrag if you know how to build them !
I have written quite a bit on this subject in the past... Look up the posts...
I know that many think that the NV4500 is a better trans... . But we did have the 4500 several years BEFORE the Getrags were used... The 4500 was only used for gas trucks originally... . We used the Getrag because it was found to be a better trans during testing..... The 4500 was later used behind the diesels... It had a few small changes made to it before it was used in the diesels but that was it... .
The 4500 replaced the Getrag for only one reason... cost !
Rebuilding the Getrag is not hard you just have to pay attention to details...
The Getrag's problems were few but vital... The things that made them fail were as follows...
1) OIL LEAKS
A) drain plug dripped , run out or run low on oil
B) No gaskets on early models , more leaks
C) pilot bushing failures,,, bronze was too soft
D) over loading , trailer too heavy
E) too much hp , turning up the fuel/air
F) overheating ruining the oil
G) wrong type of oil , no 90 weight in the Getrag ! !
H) not knowing how to shift , rattling the gears,, too high a gear at too low a speed
2) Poor assembly
A) setting shim packs too tight , Getrag even did this themselves at times
B) uneven shim packs between main shaft and countershaft causing tail shaft housing not to hit squarely
C) bell housing misalignment
In conclusion, I personally have never had a Getrag fail in any of my personal trucks nor have I ever had to rebuild one twice that I built,, I have seen them go hundreds of thousands of miles in fleet trucks without failures.....
If you still decide to replace it with some thing else I would be glad to buy whats left of your Getrag. . I could use the spare parts ...
Good luck and be sure to replace the pilot bushing. Preferably with a ball bearing... The flywheel will need to be bored out for this... I do my own but the guys at South Bend clutch do them all the time for people.....
There is nothing wrong with the Getrag if you know how to build them !
I have written quite a bit on this subject in the past... Look up the posts...
I know that many think that the NV4500 is a better trans... . But we did have the 4500 several years BEFORE the Getrags were used... The 4500 was only used for gas trucks originally... . We used the Getrag because it was found to be a better trans during testing..... The 4500 was later used behind the diesels... It had a few small changes made to it before it was used in the diesels but that was it... .
The 4500 replaced the Getrag for only one reason... cost !
Rebuilding the Getrag is not hard you just have to pay attention to details...
The Getrag's problems were few but vital... The things that made them fail were as follows...
1) OIL LEAKS
A) drain plug dripped , run out or run low on oil
B) No gaskets on early models , more leaks
C) pilot bushing failures,,, bronze was too soft
D) over loading , trailer too heavy
E) too much hp , turning up the fuel/air
F) overheating ruining the oil
G) wrong type of oil , no 90 weight in the Getrag ! !
H) not knowing how to shift , rattling the gears,, too high a gear at too low a speed
2) Poor assembly
A) setting shim packs too tight , Getrag even did this themselves at times
B) uneven shim packs between main shaft and countershaft causing tail shaft housing not to hit squarely
C) bell housing misalignment
In conclusion, I personally have never had a Getrag fail in any of my personal trucks nor have I ever had to rebuild one twice that I built,, I have seen them go hundreds of thousands of miles in fleet trucks without failures.....
If you still decide to replace it with some thing else I would be glad to buy whats left of your Getrag. . I could use the spare parts ...
Good luck and be sure to replace the pilot bushing. Preferably with a ball bearing... The flywheel will need to be bored out for this... I do my own but the guys at South Bend clutch do them all the time for people.....
bigtoy said:
Mysteryman I think that's great information.
I personally don't have any issues with my Getrag... . yet..... yes it is a touch noisy... esp when I put the hammer down in 5th at 40 mph but I don't blame it 'cause I know I'm being just plain mean to it.
Mine shifts as good as any of the Chevy trucks I've had ... (but that 3 spd Saginaw w/ the electric overdrive was just plain cool).
I personally don't have any issues with my Getrag... . yet..... yes it is a touch noisy... esp when I put the hammer down in 5th at 40 mph but I don't blame it 'cause I know I'm being just plain mean to it.
Mine shifts as good as any of the Chevy trucks I've had ... (but that 3 spd Saginaw w/ the electric overdrive was just plain cool).
Quad 4x4
Hey JLEONARD...
Much great advice in this thread. Having some transmission/clutch trouble myself at the moment.
Here's the link to Quad 4x4: http://www.quad4x4.com/NV4500HD Conversions.htm
Dan did my Trans Conversion in 2001 and is a great resource!
KEENO
Hey JLEONARD...
Much great advice in this thread. Having some transmission/clutch trouble myself at the moment.
Here's the link to Quad 4x4: http://www.quad4x4.com/NV4500HD Conversions.htm
Dan did my Trans Conversion in 2001 and is a great resource!
KEENO
Ryan's in Council Bluffs, IA rebuilt my Getrag for me 2 years ago, (the pilot bushing had damaged the input shaft resulting in an intermittent clutch engagement chatter). They showed me my transmission and a NV4500, both partially disassembled. The Getrag looks like the sturdier transmission. They said that almost every Getrag that they have rebuilt seemed to show heat damage to one particular bearing, if I remember right they may have called it a pocket bearing, and recommended that I put an extra quart or quart and a half of 5w30 in it to provide better lubrication. I haven't had any more trouble with mine in the last 85k miles since then, except for believing I was stuck with a noisy transmission. Since I replaced the clutch with a SBC, Con O I think, with the roller pilot bearing, my transmission is much quieter, as quiet as any NV4500 that I have ridden in.
I was warned on this forum that overfilling would probably cause oil leaks. It hasn't on mine yet.
I am gathering the pieces to replace the automatic in my backup work
truck with a Getrag.
Mel
I was warned on this forum that overfilling would probably cause oil leaks. It hasn't on mine yet.
I am gathering the pieces to replace the automatic in my backup work
truck with a Getrag.
Mel
getrag failures
The bearing that fails is the rear main shaft bearing..... This happens due to some of the things I mentioned earlier in this thread... .
What you have is a Timkin tapered roller bearing pressed onto the main shaft..... the race is then placed into the rear of the case partially sticking out. Then the tail shaft housing goes over the part of the race that sticks out pressing it down onto the cone... . There are shims that go between the race and the tail shaft housing that adjust the bearing clearance. .
The failure comes when the clearance is too tight (TOO MANY SHIMS)
This loads the bearing too tight..... When the trans heats up things expand...
This causes the race in the case to lock on the cone and rotate in the case...
This wears out the case and causes the trans to get real hot real fast... Then often times the case will crack between the main shaft and the countershaft bearing bores..... Party over !!!
The bearings in the Getrag are Timken tapered roller bearings just like the front wheel bearings. On front wheel bearings you adjust the clearance with the spindle nut... . On a Getrag you stack thin shims..... For new bearings you want a +. 006 preload . For used bearings you want . 000 clearance.....
Back in the early 90's we were having problems with the remans getrag was sending us... I had about 20 or so that we tore down to find out what had happened... I found that all of them had +. 030 to +. 045 shim packs..... I thought that I was not calculating it correctly or that the failed units were too bad off to be accurate...
I went to the getrag reman plant way back when to get to the bottom of what the problem was..... I pulled 3 off of the line and tore them down to check the clearance... . They all had +. 030 to +. 045 shim packs in them as well..... Oh sh** ! I called for the production manager ... . We discussed my findings... He said that they set them up this way intentionally because they felt . 006 was too lose and caused excess gear rattle during testing... OMG !!!
I promptly told him that he was to stick to the spec that WE told them to use and that I was going to write my report to my superiors that Getrag was the cause of the failures and should be back charged for the failures of the remans that Chrysler had had to eat in the previous 3 years!
For those of you that have had one of the Getrags apart . You may have noticed the the rear main shaft bearing race was excessively thick... .
The reason for this was that when we were testing the very first Getrags we found that under excessive load that the standard race would split and crack the case... So we reduced the size of the cone and had Timkin make a special thick walled race... . It worked and hence the reason for the strange heavy race...
As for the pilot bushing... . Engineering knew it was not going to work before the first one left the plant... But if you did not haul trailers it would work long enough to get out of warrantee... . Engineering wanted to use a ball bearing but . We were shot down due to cost ...
In 94 it was decided to go to a Torrington needle bearing... Great in theory but it just made matters worse... . They ate the imputs alive... .
As for the worn out ends on the imput shafts... What I do is put them in my cylinder grinder and make them round and back on center. . Then I make a steel sleeve on the lathe and press it onto the shaft end... . Then I put them in my cylinder grinder again and finish them to the correct diameter for the ball bearing I am going to use ... The tolerance is . 0001 ot centerline . And no your Craftsman engine lathe you got from dad is NOT going to do the job accurately enough !
Well enough on getrags for the day... . Dog and I are on the road going from place to place and hotel to hotel in search of long lost Dodge trucks and parts. .
Dog (Lucky) is holding on... . but is going down fast... . some days are better than others... He seems to be having a good time though... He has lifted leg on 2 chevy's and one ford so far... He gets a bone for everyone that he does. LOL
I will post some pictures of the trip after I get back if anyone is interested in seeing them..... Until then I will be shifting my Getrag... .
The bearing that fails is the rear main shaft bearing..... This happens due to some of the things I mentioned earlier in this thread... .
What you have is a Timkin tapered roller bearing pressed onto the main shaft..... the race is then placed into the rear of the case partially sticking out. Then the tail shaft housing goes over the part of the race that sticks out pressing it down onto the cone... . There are shims that go between the race and the tail shaft housing that adjust the bearing clearance. .
The failure comes when the clearance is too tight (TOO MANY SHIMS)
This loads the bearing too tight..... When the trans heats up things expand...
This causes the race in the case to lock on the cone and rotate in the case...
This wears out the case and causes the trans to get real hot real fast... Then often times the case will crack between the main shaft and the countershaft bearing bores..... Party over !!!
The bearings in the Getrag are Timken tapered roller bearings just like the front wheel bearings. On front wheel bearings you adjust the clearance with the spindle nut... . On a Getrag you stack thin shims..... For new bearings you want a +. 006 preload . For used bearings you want . 000 clearance.....
Back in the early 90's we were having problems with the remans getrag was sending us... I had about 20 or so that we tore down to find out what had happened... I found that all of them had +. 030 to +. 045 shim packs..... I thought that I was not calculating it correctly or that the failed units were too bad off to be accurate...
I went to the getrag reman plant way back when to get to the bottom of what the problem was..... I pulled 3 off of the line and tore them down to check the clearance... . They all had +. 030 to +. 045 shim packs in them as well..... Oh sh** ! I called for the production manager ... . We discussed my findings... He said that they set them up this way intentionally because they felt . 006 was too lose and caused excess gear rattle during testing... OMG !!!
I promptly told him that he was to stick to the spec that WE told them to use and that I was going to write my report to my superiors that Getrag was the cause of the failures and should be back charged for the failures of the remans that Chrysler had had to eat in the previous 3 years!
For those of you that have had one of the Getrags apart . You may have noticed the the rear main shaft bearing race was excessively thick... .
The reason for this was that when we were testing the very first Getrags we found that under excessive load that the standard race would split and crack the case... So we reduced the size of the cone and had Timkin make a special thick walled race... . It worked and hence the reason for the strange heavy race...
As for the pilot bushing... . Engineering knew it was not going to work before the first one left the plant... But if you did not haul trailers it would work long enough to get out of warrantee... . Engineering wanted to use a ball bearing but . We were shot down due to cost ...
In 94 it was decided to go to a Torrington needle bearing... Great in theory but it just made matters worse... . They ate the imputs alive... .
As for the worn out ends on the imput shafts... What I do is put them in my cylinder grinder and make them round and back on center. . Then I make a steel sleeve on the lathe and press it onto the shaft end... . Then I put them in my cylinder grinder again and finish them to the correct diameter for the ball bearing I am going to use ... The tolerance is . 0001 ot centerline . And no your Craftsman engine lathe you got from dad is NOT going to do the job accurately enough !
Well enough on getrags for the day... . Dog and I are on the road going from place to place and hotel to hotel in search of long lost Dodge trucks and parts. .
Dog (Lucky) is holding on... . but is going down fast... . some days are better than others... He seems to be having a good time though... He has lifted leg on 2 chevy's and one ford so far... He gets a bone for everyone that he does. LOL
I will post some pictures of the trip after I get back if anyone is interested in seeing them..... Until then I will be shifting my Getrag... .
Mel Fuelling said:
Thank you Mysteryman... enjoy the trip... and if you and lucky get this way say hi... and buy you cup of coffee and say thanks...
I have enjoyed my truck and Getrag for over 200k and want to thank you for your hard work, insight and understanding. . Everyone is quick to put down the Getrag and Dodge... but when I pulled mine down I was amazed at how little wear it had for as hard as it has been worked. . Most of the problems I have had that I wanted to blame on the trans have been other things. . rear end carrier bearings, clutch hub worn, rattling transfercase linkage. (mostly based on how I abuse it). Now my truck is turned up, has bigger tires, towed over 20k lbs numerous times and has done many 3rd gear burnouts and other things that you and the other designers never intended for these trucks to do. . and it still starts and get me to work every day and it is a better truck than any Chevy or Ford I have ever had..... I truely beleive that when they built these trucks the goal was met and exceeded many times over, just a good solid design. Just look at how many of them are still on the road and how many of us go look at new ones and say no thanks ... ... . I will keep my square bodyed, outdated, smoky, workhorse for a long time... and if I find another clean one for the right price I will buy it also. . For the money they are the best workhorse going... The reliable design and engineering is timeless, just look at what I drive and all of them were bought for one reason they are reliable and well enginered...
Thanks again for getting me and many others there time and time again and for helping us understand...
I have enjoyed my truck and Getrag for over 200k and want to thank you for your hard work, insight and understanding. . Everyone is quick to put down the Getrag and Dodge... but when I pulled mine down I was amazed at how little wear it had for as hard as it has been worked. . Most of the problems I have had that I wanted to blame on the trans have been other things. . rear end carrier bearings, clutch hub worn, rattling transfercase linkage. (mostly based on how I abuse it). Now my truck is turned up, has bigger tires, towed over 20k lbs numerous times and has done many 3rd gear burnouts and other things that you and the other designers never intended for these trucks to do. . and it still starts and get me to work every day and it is a better truck than any Chevy or Ford I have ever had..... I truely beleive that when they built these trucks the goal was met and exceeded many times over, just a good solid design. Just look at how many of them are still on the road and how many of us go look at new ones and say no thanks ... ... . I will keep my square bodyed, outdated, smoky, workhorse for a long time... and if I find another clean one for the right price I will buy it also. . For the money they are the best workhorse going... The reliable design and engineering is timeless, just look at what I drive and all of them were bought for one reason they are reliable and well enginered...
Thanks again for getting me and many others there time and time again and for helping us understand...
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I just thought I'd add my view. The only way I would replace the Getrag with another trans is if I decide I can afford more gears. 5 speed for 5 speed seems like a waste of money and time to me since both the Getrag and the NV4500 are comparable in strength. If I ever do decide to spend money on more gears, it will most likely involve keeping the Getrag and installing a range box. There you have it, my two pennies.
Travis. .
Travis. .
MM, I am sure the boys and I would appreciate any pictures you might afford us.
Dave
Dave
DValentine said:
I will 2nd that.
It's interesting to read MM's comments on how our trucks were built. Having worked for a similiar Auto mfgr, I can picture the defective parts being supplied, especialy for warranty replacement. When we inspectors found parts unsuitable for production, management had it red tagged for warranty or ship to Mexico. But if we ran out of parts, then it was good enough for the assembly line !
"everyone is driving toyotas and honda's.". #@$%!
... ...
Well I am a some one and I sure don't ! They stole half of their engineering from us! And yes I know that for a fact... . Did you know that in 78 and 79 that we had a diesel truck with a Jap Mitsubishi engine in it... Half of them blew up ! Those that didn't shook all the bolts out of the truck and you could not see the guy behind you in the rear view because the mirror vibrated too much ! They were slower than the second comming and if you turned the power up on them they bent the rods or blew the head gasket. .
Yes we were the first ever to have a diesel pick up in the usa. . we were the first for electronic ignition, torsion bar suspension,electronic fuel injection, automatic transmissions ect ect ect... . Yes we at CHRYSLER had the best engineers in the industry..... Our Airtemp division designed and made all the HVAC systems in the nuclear subs..... Our Newprocess division made most all the transfer cases for most of the light trucks for 40 years... We owned the industrial engine market and most of the chassis's in the motor homes were Dodge in years past...
And lets not forget that we were the ONLY auto maker that had the balls to put a Cummins 5. 9 in a pickup truck ! Everyone else knew that engine existed
long before we put it in our trucks... But it was our engineers and our chassis that made it happen... . The others could not get it to fit without doing severe design changes to their chassis... . And every engineer knew that the in line 6 was the best design for balance purposes!!
Except for the jap starter and alternator the the 89 to 93 trucks will go down in history as being the best work horse pickup ever built! If the Japs could build a truck for the price that could match ours you can bet your life that they would have built it by now !!!
One last thing... . did you know that the Jap zero that bombed Pearl harbor was built by Mitsubishi and the airplane design was an AMERICAN design they stole !
And isn't it funny that the Toyota trucks today have torsion BAR suspension... That was our design that they copied... . All they need to do now is offer the "handle option" You know... . No wheel barrow is much good with out the handle option!
Frankly I don't care if the japs built the best vehicle in the world... I think I would rather walk than buy one from them ! I know that Chrysler and
Mitsubishi were buddies ..... But engineering had nothing to do with that deal ! We all hated them with a passion... !!!!
... ... Well I am a some one and I sure don't ! They stole half of their engineering from us! And yes I know that for a fact... . Did you know that in 78 and 79 that we had a diesel truck with a Jap Mitsubishi engine in it... Half of them blew up ! Those that didn't shook all the bolts out of the truck and you could not see the guy behind you in the rear view because the mirror vibrated too much ! They were slower than the second comming and if you turned the power up on them they bent the rods or blew the head gasket. .
Yes we were the first ever to have a diesel pick up in the usa. . we were the first for electronic ignition, torsion bar suspension,electronic fuel injection, automatic transmissions ect ect ect... . Yes we at CHRYSLER had the best engineers in the industry..... Our Airtemp division designed and made all the HVAC systems in the nuclear subs..... Our Newprocess division made most all the transfer cases for most of the light trucks for 40 years... We owned the industrial engine market and most of the chassis's in the motor homes were Dodge in years past...
And lets not forget that we were the ONLY auto maker that had the balls to put a Cummins 5. 9 in a pickup truck ! Everyone else knew that engine existed
long before we put it in our trucks... But it was our engineers and our chassis that made it happen... . The others could not get it to fit without doing severe design changes to their chassis... . And every engineer knew that the in line 6 was the best design for balance purposes!!
Except for the jap starter and alternator the the 89 to 93 trucks will go down in history as being the best work horse pickup ever built! If the Japs could build a truck for the price that could match ours you can bet your life that they would have built it by now !!!
One last thing... . did you know that the Jap zero that bombed Pearl harbor was built by Mitsubishi and the airplane design was an AMERICAN design they stole !
And isn't it funny that the Toyota trucks today have torsion BAR suspension... That was our design that they copied... . All they need to do now is offer the "handle option" You know... . No wheel barrow is much good with out the handle option!
Frankly I don't care if the japs built the best vehicle in the world... I think I would rather walk than buy one from them ! I know that Chrysler and
Mitsubishi were buddies ..... But engineering had nothing to do with that deal ! We all hated them with a passion... !!!!
RHancock said:
Hmmmm do i need to go ahead and plan for a rebuild, so far my transmission in the 92 is doing great, it does chatter and i try not to be in higher gear and lower rpms if at all possible, if i fall under 45 i down shift to 4th gear. . The only thing that is driving me batty is that dam 4x4 stick, is there a washer kit or anything to get that chatter out of it???
What type of transmission fluid does one need to put in the Getrag???
What type of transmission fluid does one need to put in the Getrag???
Awesome! I like it when people take pride in American products! I am worried the direction this country is headed. My towns largest employer (Electrolux) announced on valentines day that 700 of 2000 jobs will be eliminated in the next couple of years. They are building a new plant in Mexico. I wish them nothing but bad luck. Actually I don't blame Electrolux, that is the only way they can compete with all the other plants moving for cheap labor. I blame America for letting it happen, our politicians , who work for us, could prevent this. I believe that in a fewn years the whole plant will be shut down. The portion of the plant that is moving to Mexico is our newest line, All that is left is older lines and top load washers that will more than likely be phased out. This is not a suprise to me I knew it was just a matter of time. We can't be a strong great nation if we keep going the way we are going. We keep importing crap from China and elsewhere, sending jobs to Mexico and overseas. We are borrowing money form foreign governments. The only reason these countrys can build cheaper than us is because of cheap third world labor. We have a better standard of living than that! We won't if we keep going this direction. We will eventuaaly be third world where you are very rich or very poor. I hope we do something before it's too late.
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