Replacing my 19.5's

[MChrist]

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Is this your tire? (picture may be very small).

 

[RHestand]

MChrist, Thanks for the reply.
Yes, that tire looks like mine, except mine doesn't have the three sets of diagonal siping at about 1" spacing that your picture shows.
Ray

 

[MChrist]

Those would be the factory grooves. They are worn off, then. If I only had to do one or two sets of tires, I would buy the Ideal Tire Groover. With that, you can groove and sipe for under $100.
First, measure the tread depth of all tires. If depth is less than, say, 8/32", we've got some work to do... if more, then it won't be too bad. I would duplicate the grooves in the picture with a 2/32" blade every 1. 5" or so. Go about 5/32" deep into existing tread ribs. Then, I would turn a 1/4" wide blade upside down and sipe the tire between the grooves. Add about 500 lbs to the bed between the wheel wells and the cab, and you will see a huge improvement in traction.
Study my pics in link #50 to get a rough idea of what you can do. The pic of the skinny front tire near the end of post 50 shows a 225/70/19. 5 similar to what you have. I simply grooved the center rib, siped the adjacent ribs, and left the two outer ribs alone and the traction is amazing!! Braking and turning sharp in slick snow is incredible, but also, this is on the front of an NRR Isuzu, and may have around (guessing) 5000lbs on that axle. Weight is your friend. Before I did the tire work, I was going to pull the tires off, since they would slide in rain!! Now they grip in the snow!

Again, weight is your friend, here. Don't let anybody tell you that "oh, the extra weight will take longer to stop. " That is only true in dry weather. In snow, weight will get your tires to the pavement so you CAN stop, not slide uncontrollably, on top of the snow. I will fight anybody on this notion... and win. I deal with big trucks everyday here in the winter, and they suck when empty, and are near unstoppable when loaded.

Our township snowplows are big, single axle trucks with highway rib summer tires, but loaded with salt or sand. They never have any problems pushing a huge, wide blade on slick roads. Now, pull the bed off so you just have the frame, put gnarly winter tires on and try to make it down the road in the snow... you'll be in the ditch quick, if you could even get out of the parking lot. No weight = no traction in snow.

 

[Barry]

There must be a reason why folks live up north in the winter, but God has never revealed that to me... ... ... ... ... ... ..... God even taught the birds to go south when it gets cold!

 

[MChrist]

Barry, were you able to get those measurements, yet?



Also, I had a very interesting experiment regarding siping and snow conditions you may be interested in. I have two identical 2007 Isuzu NRRs. Identical in every way except front tires. One truck has continental HSRs in front, the other has the Bridgestone 250. It's actually the one in post #50, near the bottom (the skinny one!). Both have HDRs on the back.

We just had a good, heavy snowfall. Terrible roads, ice, everything. I asked both drivers how their trucks were handling the snow. The guy with the full tread HSR said "meh, OK". I later asked the driver with the highway rib Bridgestones that I siped and he said "they're great".

Intrigued, I decided to take each truck for a spin around our parking lot and down the street. The HSR truck pushed the front tires under braking, and during turning, they wanted to plow straight. I then switched to the other twin truck with the tires I siped, and was absolutely shocked! When I could lock up the tires, they scraped the pavement clean! They stopped so hard that the truck would rock back after stopping. The HSRs just slid to a stop. Then I drove at 10 mph and turned in gradually smaller circles. It didn't take long for the HSR truck to plow forward. The siped truck was able to go in a complete lockout position without plowing! So then I sped up, and when it did start to plow, it would regrab, not just keep going, like the HSR would.



I tried to rule out anything that would alter the results, such as liquid in the tank (both empty), brake difference (doing skidpad maneuvers = no brakes), and couldn't come up with anything, other than the siped rib tires have those 4 channels to let the snow out? The HSRs even had deeper tread, aside from looking WAY more aggressive, they couldn't hold a candle to the siped highway rib tire!!! Nobody was more surprised than me.



If anybody tried to tell me those results, I would ask to see the results in person, because I simply wouldn't believe them. Just look at that picture and then look at a new Continental HSR. What do you think would be better in snow on the steer axle.

The Bridgestones even had less tread depth than the Conti's, 6/32" vs 11/32"



Now I wonder how they would do on the drives... hmmmmm.

 

[RHestand]

Siping?

Those would be the factory grooves. They are worn off, then. If I only had to do one or two sets of tires, I would buy the Ideal Tire Groover. With that, you can groove and sipe for under $100.

First, measure the tread depth of all tires. If depth is less than, say, 8/32", we've got some work to do... if more, then it won't be too bad. I would duplicate the grooves in the picture with a 2/32" blade every 1. 5" or so. Go about 5/32" deep into existing tread ribs. Then, I would turn a 1/4" wide blade upside down and sipe the tire between the grooves. Add about 500 lbs to the bed between the wheel wells and the cab, and you will see a huge improvement in traction.

Study my pics in link #50 to get a rough idea of what you can do. The pic of the skinny front tire near the end of post 50 shows a 225/70/19. 5 similar to what you have. I simply grooved the center rib, siped the adjacent ribs, and left the two outer ribs alone and the traction is amazing!! Braking and turning sharp in slick snow is incredible, but also, this is on the front of an NRR Isuzu, and may have around (guessing) 5000lbs on that axle. Weight is your friend. Before I did the tire work, I was going to pull the tires off, since they would slide in rain!! Now they grip in the snow!



Again, weight is your friend, here. Don't let anybody tell you that "oh, the extra weight will take longer to stop. " That is only true in dry weather. In snow, weight will get your tires to the pavement so you CAN stop, not slide uncontrollably, on top of the snow. I will fight anybody on this notion... and win. I deal with big trucks everyday here in the winter, and they suck when empty, and are near unstoppable when loaded.



Our township snowplows are big, single axle trucks with highway rib summer tires, but loaded with salt or sand. They never have any problems pushing a huge, wide blade on slick roads. Now, pull the bed off so you just have the frame, put gnarly winter tires on and try to make it down the road in the snow... you'll be in the ditch quick, if you could even get out of the parking lot. No weight = no traction in snow.

Hello again and thanks for the info.

I'm almost positive my tires never had the diag. siping as shown in your picture. I think I would remember that and also I measured my tread depth on all six tires today and they were are all at 13/32s except the two center grooves and they are all at 12/32s. I don't know what the orig. tire depth was, but to me they still look like they did new.

Anyway, in reading your posts and looking at the pictures of the re-grooving/siping you've done I would very much appreciate any info. you might offer me to improve my existing tires in snow/ice conditions.

Also how do you do the layout, spacing and angles? Do make up some sort of template and mark them first? In your pictures they look very well planned. Even if if it's not that critical for performance, I would still like to see mine look somewhat professional.

TIA for any help you might offer.

Ray

 

[MChrist]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?VISuperSize&item=140609403378

This is the only picture of a Samson tire I've been able to find. If it makes you feel any better, I didn't know my Michelin XZEs had similar grooving.
Anyway, on certain tires, I will make a template using card stock and an Exacto blade. I'll cut out a repeating pattern, use a ball point pen, and fire up the groover. On these, you would just be doing straight, short lines with a known beginning and end. With my groover, the blade is cool until the head of the groover feels you pressing, then it energizes the heat to the blade and it heats instantly. That allows me to "feel" exactly where I want to be without melting anything I don't.
So, you can duplicate what is in then picture above, or run the center diagonal groove like the picture and reverse the adjacent grooves. I'm not sure it makes too much of a difference if you are just doing the grooves. If you are also going to sipe the tires,(and I highly recommend you do) I would reverse the adjacent grooves and duplicate the sipes in the same direction as the grooves. Kind of like this:
\ / \
\ / \ But on less of an angle.

I would suggest 2/32" wide grooves 5 -6/32" deep. I would use a straight edge to connect the dots of where you want to go for the first few cuts. After that, you get a feel for it. The angle I would use would probably be something like a 2 o'clock position, so I guess 30 degrees off horizontal.
For siping, I was told to go about 3/16" (6/32") deep and around 1/4 (8/32") apart. My sipes on the Bridgestone weren't that deep, maybe 4/32".

Where is Marinette, WI? I'm 30 minutes from WI border. If you are close, I could walk you through it at my shop.

 

[MChrist]

The link doesn't work. Go to eBay, search "Samson 245". That's the picture that is supposed to pop up. (even if 245 isn't your size)

 

[HBarlow]

MChrist,

Have you been regrooving and siping long enough to observe tread wear and compare the wear characteristics and service life of your regrooved and siped tires to an untouched OEM tire of same brand?

I suppose I'm wondering if siping increases rate of wear compared to a non-siped tire.

 

[MChrist]

MChrist,



Have you been regrooving and siping long enough to observe tread wear and compare the wear characteristics and service life of your regrooved and siped tires to an untouched OEM tire of same brand?



I suppose I'm wondering if siping increases rate of wear compared to a non-siped tire.

I've been doing it since September/October. While I haven't had a chance to have two similar trucks with new tires at the same time run through their tread, I will predict that there will not be any noticeable wear difference, positively or negatively due to siping. The front tires I siped on my Isuzu don't look distorted or chunked or cupped. In fact they look like I just did them. I think that was November. That truck has around 5,000 miles on my siping job. As I mentioned earlier, in this or the other thread, the handling and stopping ability in this truck with those tires is something that has to be seen to be believed.

Tire places that sipe tires say that they actually last longer, due to them running cooler. I have no evidence to support or negate those comments. I honestly don't care enough to run a comparison, because one driver will be more aggressive than another, maybe one truck is slightly out of alignment, etc. Too many variables to get solid numbers. I will play it safe and call it a wash.



Traction: stunning on a heavy vehicle. I can't say that siping a tire on a pickup like ours will be as "night and day" noticeable as on a heavy truck, but I may be siping one of my guys' Ram 1500. He picked up some skinny tires that have no siping. When I get the chance, I will do his and report back.



Regrooving: Before winter, there were at least 10 tires that I would have pulled off and replaced with new retreads or virgin tires. Some of those tires would have cost $700. These tires still had legal tread ranging from 5/32"-8/32". I need my guys to have maximum traction in the snow for safety, and that amount of tread isn't good enough for me in winter. There were about 10 more that I have worked on beside those, too. I regrooved them all and they look like new.

I inspect all those tires every time I go to the shop, and have nothing to report, other than extended life and better traction.



I have not had any negative results, but I assure you that if I do, I will be here talking about it.



Oh, I forgot to mention that I even grooved our forklift! Ours is a Nissan 60, which weighs 10,000lbs. The fronts would spin whenever there was water on the concrete. I grooved one tire with a 1/32" blade 6/32" deep, and that one didn't spin anymore. I tested this by doing one tire and driving on wet cement. It never spun, but the ungrooved one did every time. Same thing in the snow. I now need to get the other tire done. I took pictures, but I need my wife to work her computer magic to get the pics on here.



Some people say I'm obsessive.....

 

[HBarlow]

I've found your reporting of experimenting with regrooving and siping an excellent learning experience. Keep it going.

 

[MChrist]

Thanks, Harvey... I will. In the meantime, I found this article. I was still trying to find something definitive about retreads on steers and came across this:


Interstitial Ad - Modern Tire Dealer

I was always told "No, No, No". But I still need to investigate further with our local safety lane inspector. Maybe it's one of those things where it's federally ok, but locally not??

I'll ask and report.

 

[MChrist]

Here is another study on "road gators" and the misconception vs. fact behind them:

http://www.umtri.umich.edu/content/rr40_3.pdf

I didn't get to talk to our safety lane guy today, but in searching online, it's amazing how many people say that you can't use retreads on steer axles, as though it is a fact, because that's what they've heard.

Another thing I found interesting, is the definition of "local delivery". Sustained speed of 55 mph for at least 50 continuous miles, if I recall. Heck, we never get going 55 for more than a few minutes, at best here!!

I believe there is a weight rating limit for regrooving front tires though. I will need to verify, but apparently, you can't legally regroove a steer tire that is rated more than 4920 lbs. Notice... regroove, not retread.

It may take a few days to gather solid information from my safety lane guy, but when I do, I'll report back.

As a side note: I was researching "white noise" backup alarms for our trucks, and I wanted to know if they would pass safety lane inspection. Turns out, backup alarms are not required!! Our safety lane guy says you would be stupid not to have one, but they are not required. You learn something new every day!