Running B100 -- 3rd Gens -- Polymerization (Flocking) -- Good News.

[bighornram]

Great work again Jay! I just made my first batch of biodiesel using the Dr. Pepper method. What and how would you test this stuff for compatibility? Soley Ph? What do you guys think about washing and drying? There seems to be quite a controversy on it.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Jay,



Any idea where to buy Diesel Kleen? Power Service won't answer email.

Walmart stores, and many truck stops carry it - sells for $11 a gallon jug at Walmart - I use a quart per 50 gallon tank (fuel/tool box in bed of truck), plus an additional quart of synthetic ashless 2-stroke oil. Been doing this for years, first in my '91, and in the '02 since new. I got the same info relative to the Diesel Kleen vs their Fuel Supplement formula (also sold at Walmart) and the fuel gelling difference, etc. , and posted it here on TDR a year or so back...

 

[67guzzler]

Walmart stores, and many truck stops carry it - sells for $11 a gallon jug at Walmart - I use a quart per 50 gallon tank (fuel/tool box in bed of truck), plus an additional quart of synthetic ashless 2-stroke oil. Been doing this for years, first in my '91, and in the '02 since new. I got the same info relative to the Diesel Kleen vs their Fuel Supplement formula (also sold at Walmart) and the fuel gelling difference, etc. , and posted it here on TDR a year or so back...

What was interesting to me and I'm not sure if this was covered a year ago was the differences in the effectiveness of the conditioner for those in cold weather climates below B20 vs. above B20. I hadn't heard that but then again, this is all new to me!



Well -- I'm off to Walmart!



Update 10:49 PM



Just got back from Walmart. Must be freak-show night. I saw a fight. I saw a woman on crack 1/2 dressed. I couldn't wait to get out of there. Anyway -- Gary is right. $11. 96 for 3 quart (96 oz. ) bottle of either the Diesel Kleen or the Diesel Conditioner. The weak ratio is 32 oz. per 100 gal. The strong ratio is 32 oz. per 50 gal. like Gary does in his toolbox tank. I put 1 quart in each 55 gal drum and mixed it with the shaft of the pump. Sure can't hurt!

 

[HEMI®Dart]

Thanks Guys. I will stop be Wally World. Should I put clean cloths on & shave before I go?

 

[DocStressor]

This is a great thread with lots of good info.



I'm a scientist with some background in organic polymer chemistry and I'd like to comment on a couple of things:



1) An agent that increases the miscibility of water with biodiesel such the additives in Diesel Clean and similar products won't prevent oxidation of a bio fuel. The water has to be physically removed by a process such as evaporation or through that use of molecular sieves. But if water, glycerol, and oxygen are removed or excluded, biodiesel should be quit stable.



2) I don't know if it is possible to develop a pour point depressant or ant-gel agent that will work with biodiesel. This might be only because I don't know enough about the topic. But the way anti-gel additives work with petroleum diesel fuels is by binding to the longest paraffin molecules (waxes) in solution and keeping them from aggregating when the temperature drops. This works because long chain paraffins only make up a small percentage of the molecules in petroleum diesel. Biodiesel is made up of fatty acid methyl esters that are all about the same length. So you would have to add a TON of anti-gel additive to have a significant effect.



At today's prices, biodiesel is now competitive with conventional diesel fuel. I think (or hope) that we are going to see a lot more research directed toward solving these problems in the near future.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

There's an aspect of biodiesel use that is sorta ignored, or avoided as far as any degree of serious consideration is concerned - maybe time for a reality check?



We have watched discussions take place here, and heard statements that "Joe Diesel has been using bio for 6 months now, with no problems or failures... "



Well, That's great - and MOST guys here probably trade off their trucks LONG before normal engine life expectancy is anywhere on the near horizon - so UNUSUALLY shortened engine life for THOSE guys is probably not as big an issue as fuel cost savings on the shorter term.



Bur SOME of us plan on keeping our trucks for a LONG time, and have already gone to great lengths to ENHANCE the lifespan of the engine and related components - so is biodiesel likely to help, or hinder that goal?



Are there any reliable reports of long-term bio use, showing the reasonable expectation of normal engine longevity, as compared to regular diesel fuels?



IF I have to pay $450 for the stuff to MAKE biodiesel, and do the running around to gather raw materials, then dispose of waste byproducts - and THEN see engine or injection pump failures increase by 25%, is that bio and costs involved really worth it?



Anyone involved in this discussion have data documenting comparative engine and pump wear between bio and regular diesel - or are those who do so essentially functioning as lab rats?



*I* really DO want my truck to last a long time - it's probably my last one - and I sure don't want short-term fuel savings to simply be replaced by an earlier death of the engine or fuel system components just in the name of a technology in it's infancy...

 

[67guzzler]

Anyone involved in this discussion have data documenting comparative engine and pump wear between bio and regular diesel - or are those who do so essentially functioning as lab rats?

Gary -- As usual you raise some great questions and make some great points. I have not specifically come across the data you're looking for. But I did read lots of white papers that said that biodiesel's extra lubricity helps in the area of parts wear IF the biodiesel has all the glycerol and water removed. The other issue is certain metals can react to the biodiesel and shed their coatings or tarnish but it's believed these problems are not common in modern (our) engines. The common belief is that none of the known issues will result in the acceleration of engine wear and it's unlikely, tho possible, that the known issues will affect you at all IF you run ASTM D6751 biodiesel that really conforms to the standard and is fresh. So I think I'm only functioning as a "lab rat" to the extent that I'm powerless over the true quality of the fuel I receive but not in relation to the fact that it's biodiesel itself.



Regarding making my own biodiesel -- for me -- I just don't have any desire to make my own bio. But my objective is not to save money but to not purchase oil from OPEC. The secondary reason for not make my own biodiesel is that I don't believe it's as cheap as the contraption sellers want me to believe when it's all said and done. You have to buy the equipment, hunt for used oil (or buy new oil), buy the methanol and the lye and then work really hard spending time and effort to not screw it up. If you don't buy your oil new, then you really won't know 100% for sure what you're getting. Even if you get good at it, it is time consuming. And if you want to be sure your final product is really good, you have to test it. Even the biggest bio manufacturers have to do regular testing. To have the final product properly tested, you have to drop $400 (per my biodiesel seller) for a complete & accurate lab test (not a home test kit) to see what the result batch consists of. To me, it's just not worth it because I believe it's harder to make consistent, stable biodiesel then the contraption sellers want you to know. I'd rather subsidize the newly emerging commerical biodiesel industry even if it's subject to growing pains.



Honestly -- If I had an old VW Rabbit Pickup or an old 1st Gen with 250k miles that I didn't mind experimenting with, then I might do this. But not on my truck and I'd imagine from what you say your objectives are, you might not want to make your own bio for your truck.

 

[67guzzler]

At today's prices, biodiesel is now competitive with conventional diesel fuel. I think (or hope) that we are going to see a lot more research directed toward solving these problems in the near future.

I hope you're right, DocStressor. Thanks for your post.

But if water, glycerol, and oxygen are removed or excluded, biodiesel should be quit stable.

Just another confirming that the quality of the biodiesel is really important and the fact that the manufacturing and distribution of biodiesel is in it's infancy naturally implies that there will be growing pains somehow, somewhere.

 

[Dl5treez]

Here are a couple brief test results that I found awhile back:

http://www.uidaho.edu/bae/biodiesel/research/past_research.html

http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/19951231_gen-158.pdf



Hope they help... .....

 

[barbwire]

Roverhybrids, I was wondering where I could get a filter system to filter oil down to at least 3 micron. Where did you get yours? Thanx

 

[67guzzler]

Here are a couple brief test results that I found awhile back:

http://www.uidaho.edu/bae/biodiesel/research/past_research.html

http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/19951231_gen-158.pdf



Hope they help... .....

Interesting Info.



I'm pasting the Conclusions Beginning Page 38 on the biodiesel pdf because they're so interesting:



"The eight renewable fuel sources, an ethyl and methyl ester of rapeseed oil, soybean oil, canola oil, and beef tallow plus the two reference tiels, a commercial grade methyl soybean ester and a commercial grade low sulfur #2 diesel fuel encountered no problems with fuel flow, filter clogging, power loss, piston ring seizure and oil dilution in either the short or long term performance study. Comparing differences between ethyl and methyl ester fiels made from the same feedstock, canola oil showed the least variation for power, torque, exhaust temperature and fuel economy. Soybean oil and tallow varied the most. "



"Some differences between fuels became apparent from the results of the fuel characterizations. Characteristics of Biodiesel fuels which were better than diesel were: 1) a higher flash point, 2) a higher cetane number, 3) a higher percent oxygen and 4) a lower sulfur content. Characteristics of Biodiesel fuels which were not as good as diesel: 1) a higher viscosity, 2) a higher pour point and 3) a lower heat of combustion. Ethyl ester fuels were somewhat more viscous and their percent esterification was 3. 2 percent lower than methyl ester fuels. Correlations between injector tip coking and specific fuel characteristics indicated that increased coking was statistically correlated with increased viscosity, molecular weight and heat of combustion. Injector coking was less for diesel fuel in both the short and long term performance tests&t only slightly so. Injector coking was shown to be a function of fuel and also the type of test being performed. "



"The engine performance from the short term tests using Biodiesel fuels did not greatly differ from diesel fuel. An average power loss, 4. 8 percent, combined with an increase of 7. 2 percent fuel consumption was experienced with the Biodiesel fuels compared to diesel. Smoke density of the Biodiesel fuels averaged 72. 2 percent less than diesel. In general, there was a statistically sign&ant difference between the performance of the Biodiesel and diesel fuels for power (4. 8% less), torque (3. 5% less), exhaust temperature (5. 6% less), smokedensity (70. 2% less) and fuel economy (8. 2% more). Injector coking was highest for ethyl ester fuels, followed by methyl ester fuels and then diesel. Thermal efficiencies were about the same for all fuels tested. "



"The engine performance from the long term tests using Biodiesel fuels demonstrated an increase in relative power for all fuels over the EMA test period. Engine oil wear metal analysis results indicated no abnormal wear patterns. Weight analysis of piston ring wear indicates that Biodiesel had better lubricating qualities. Biodiesel had 12. 4 percent less wear on a weight basis than diesel. Biodiesel carbon deposits on the valves were less than diesel (41% less), by weight, but slightly more deposits were on the pistons compared to diesel (16. 5% more). Injector coking was never severe enough to inhibit injection spray patterns. Methyl ester fuels had the highest coking followed by ethyl ester fuels and then diesel. All fuels had a performance which surpassed the requirements of the EMA standard. "

 

[roverhybrids]

Roverhybrids, I was wondering where I could get a filter system to filter oil down to at least 3 micron. Where did you get yours? Thanx

I'm using a chem tec larger spin on filter. I would guess it is 3 micron nominal.

You can also get bag filters which work well and are cheap.

www.fsifilters.com

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I found this interesting in the above supplied pointers:



"As of January 1995, the on-road vehicle tests are progressing very well. No major mechanical difficulties have occurred. The two 1992 on-road vehicles, one fueled with 20 percent RME and one 20 percent raw rapeseed oil have reached 55,400 miles and 46,5 00 miles respectively.





Reduced fuel filter life had been a problem in the 20 percent RME blend fueled vehicle. Rust in the heated, steel tanks was observed and the tanks were replaced with stainless steel.





Continuous improvements to the onboard mixing system have been made in order to obtain a more accurate mixture. The tank heating system performed well during the cold winter months keeping the BIODIESEL at 50 F.





At the 16,000 mile dynamometer test, the 1994 pickup fueled with the 100 percent REE had a 30 percent decrease in opacity and a 7. 8 percent reduction in horsepower compared to D2. The 1992 pickup operated on 20 RME, at the 50,000 mile dynamometer test, had horsepower changes of -1. 5 and-2. 9 percent and opacity changes of -9. 4 and -25. 6 percent when fueled with 20 percent RME blend and 100 percent RME respectively (Table 2). "



It sorta interests me that the reduction in HP obtained with bio fuels is so readily accepted - and no one has commented on what effects in overall bio/engine performance would be obtained IF the bio power level was increased back to the same level as what was obtained with common diesel fuels, to keep that element of comparison on the same playing field ~



Otherwise, it may be a lot like replacing the carburetor on a gasser engine with a smaller one - less HP, better fuel mileage, and less engine stress = less engine wear etc. , but not really giving the whole picture...



Just a thought...

 

[67guzzler]

I think I see your point -- the benefit might not be the result of the implied causation. So less wear might be the result of simply running the engine less hard...



The counter to that is the fact that they might be running the engine harder to make the same power, thus reducing fuel economy and therefore, comparing apples to apples. If one accepts this premise, that the tester will have been compensating with extra throttle to complete the same task, then the lower wear can reasonably be attributed to the extra lubricity of the biodiesel.



In this regard, I just ordered the Adjustable Timing Sensor (5. 9 common rail Cummins) from http://www.rokktech.com/_mgxroot/page_10437.html because I want to try to offset the power loss and keep the similar power characteristics of petrodiesel. Plus, they have the injection timing so retarded on the Series 600 / 610 engines for emissions purposes that I think it will even be a cleaner burn with the bio.

 

[bighornram]

Engine oil wear metal analysis results indicated no abnormal wear patterns.

This was my first (and last) analysed sample from my 02'. This was after 10000 miles on b20 (bluesun).

 

[mhenon]

I think I see your point -- the benefit might not be the result of the implied causation. So less wear might be the result of simply running the engine less hard... .

No. . that's not it. The reduced wear is from the biodiesel itself not the fact that it has less energy. If less energy content resulted in less wear then Kerosene would have the same effect and we know that's not the case.

I read a report (Stanadyne?) on the effects of biodiesel vs D#2 and wear scarring on metal (like that seen in an injector pump). As little as 1% (B1) biodiesel in diesel fuel reduced wear significantly. 2% biodiesel reduced wear almost as much as B100 and was considered the optimal blend for lubricity purposes.

Like a lot of the folks here I intend to keep my truck for a long time (if I get over the trauma of losing the VP44 recently). I also like the idea of running biodiesel... for a variety of reasons. At blends of 20% or less, depending on climate and temps, I don't think we'll see any long term engine problems related to using bio. I'm thinking of using B20 in the summer and work down to B2 (just for lubricity) in really cold weather.

Mike

 

[67guzzler]

No. . that's not it. The reduced wear is from the biodiesel itself not the fact that it has less energy. If less energy content resulted in less wear then Kerosene would have the same effect and we know that's not the case. Mike

Umm, Mike. Did you read my whole post? I agreed with you. I was just acknowledging Gary's point first.



I then made the same counter argument you made.

 

[HEMI®Dart]

JGann,



I got Biodiesel yesterday. This is only my 2nd tank. My first one was around B15. I mixed up a B35-B39 yesterday. The truck LOVES it. I want to go to a B75, but I'll wait till spring. It seems to run quieter. It also seems to have MORE power @ B35. I LOVE the smell of the exhaust. It's not really like french fries, but like the smell of the grill exhaust at Burger King. It has a really "Clean" smell. Petro diesel has a mega unburnt hydro carbon smell in my truck. No fuel filter problems yet.



It seems to run REAL CLEAN too. Visible tailpipe emissions have been cut 50% at least. I would love to see how B100 does on my state emmisions test. I'll bet it's real clean.



I couldn't get Diesel Kleen at my local Wally World. They don't stock it. I added Amalgamated's additive and some Amsoil Cetane Boost to the tank.



B20 was $3. 03 a gallon. B100 was $3. 67 a gallon. Petrodiesel was $2. 87. They don't have B100 at the public pump. They say it's more for pumping into jugs and it will freeze if left outside. I bought 2, 5 gallon Kerosene cans had him fill them both, then dump 1 into the tank, then fill the rest w/ B20.



I really don't care that it cost more than regular diesel. I also have no interest in brewing my own Bio (like you). I have to drive about 12 miles further to get Biodiesel.



I think they get their Bio from www.soypower.net



Here is a sample of my B100. It is super clear, and has virtually no odor. I put it in the refrigerator to see if it would cloud, but it hasn't.

 

[67guzzler]

Good for you Bill. With your truck being a 1994, it will be interesting to see how your filter looks after a few tanks.

I mixed up a B35-B39 yesterday. The truck LOVES it. I want to go to a B75, but I'll wait till spring.

Since I bought the 110 Gallons of B95, I've been putting that in straight when I get about 10 gallons down from full. So I've put 10 gallons in 2x so far so I'm probably somewhere between B50 and B70. I'm easing my way up to straight B95 this way. I've had no ill-effects. I've noticed slightly less fuel economy, no difference in power, no black smoke even on full throttle acceleration and no difference in noise at idle. This 2005 truck is quiet at idle with the pilot injection so there might not be as much to quiet down.

B20 was $3. 03 a gallon. B100 was $3. 67 a gallon.

I wonder if they'll sell you something below B100 (say B99) at the same price as the B20. The way the tax incentive works is that if there is any petro in the blend at all, the seller gets a major tax break. But if it's B100, they don't and there is a big jump in price. So my dealer will sell B5 to B95 for $2. 95 per gallon but B100 is almost $4. 00 per gallon.

I really don't care that it cost more than regular diesel.

Me neither. I don't care if the extra dough goes into American farmer's pockets and the biodiesel distribution chain either.

I couldn't get Diesel Kleen at my local Wally World.

Hmm... Mine is a Super Walmart so maybe they have more shelf space for the Diesel Kleen.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Walmart stores I use typically don't carry a very high volume of Diesel Kleen, and not unusual for them to be out of stock at various times - I usually buy 2 or more gallons at a time, and have often bought all they currently had on their shelf...



I'm very interested in possibly buying a 55 gallon drum of biodiesel - but base price plus shipping would seem to be expensive? I plan to check with the local Texaco distributor to see if they have or would order it for me at a better price than I could get on my own. My intent is more related to lubricity, and reading I have done indicates that 1 or 2 percent gets the job done, but a B20 percentage would be my goal, and a 55 gallon drum would last me quite a while under current truck driving circumstances...