shop installed adj Moog ball joints, can't get it right, what to do?

[GlennHetchler]

I have an '05 4X4, 3500, single rear wheels, 72K mi. With steering looseness, I went to a recommended shop and had them put in what I was told were the "good" parts- all 4 Moog ball joints (adjustable uppers) and a pitman arm. NOW I realize that letting them put in the adjustable ones was a recipe for frustration, if not disaster. Their alignment shop tried to align it twice, the second time giving me the printout of the results.

I gave up on their shop and took it to a well regarded truck shop. They could find nothing "wrong" until I asked them to take it home overnight and put some miles on it. They agreed it was very squirrely, but they have no idea what to do since everything seems in good shape, and is well within spec. It feels like I am steering with a bungy cord tied to each front wheel. All this problem started when I had the work done.

From researching the forums (and ordering some back issues) I realize that there are much better choices than adjustable Moogs. But here I am, and I'd like to see if somebody can give me (and my alignment shop) the advice so we can make these things work so that it can be aligned to drive right. Having the uppers replaced again at my expense after only a couple thousand miles is not attractive.

I did find the following post from another site that gives alternative alignment specs. But it was from '01, and I didn't know if everything applied to my '05, or how authoritative it was.
Ram steering specs

Also, I tried to find out how to contact Moog for help, and their web site specifically says they will not talk with end users, and gives no contact info for such. One would hope they would be able to tell someone how to put the things in for a good result; if not why would they sell them?

My alignment shop is very good and honest (hasn't charged me a thing yet, 'cause he doesn't know what to do), but isn't an expert on Rams. If anyone has a shop N of Denver that IS an expert in this area and they know how to sort out those adjustable ball joints, I'd love to hear about them.

Thanks for any help. I loved what my truck used to be. Throwing money at it hasn't gotten it back there yet.

 

[fox]

I have a second gen but I think it will adjust/align the same.

If toe in, camber are right, then look strongly at caster.

The factory does not put enough in it. Left to right must be close for both caster and camber.

If everything is tight then look at the tires. Try someone elses to see if there is a difference.

Also check the gear box.

Mine drives like a 2 wheel drive, but only after I ---me-- spent a lot of time getting it there.

It amazes me that a shop with $100,000 equipment couldn't do what I did with a few common tools and time.

 

[jelag]

You don't say where your at... . I've got 3 trucks... 04, 04. 5 and a 05 as well as an 08 5500... . for us. . if the tires wear normally we don't get it aligned... .

We find that the trucks wonder wildly when we encounter ruts in the highway from cars and their narrow track... caused by studded tires... . when we get past the ruts we find that these trucks run fine... . all of mine have the stock front end and the lowest mileage truck has over 90K... . ours are all duallys and that seems to make the matter worse as the duals run in different tracks than the front wheels. .

We know that increased CASTER will take some of the wander out... . the higher the caster number the more the truck wants to go straight down the road... we've seen posted here, from 1/2 to a full degree of more positive caster, above factory specifications.....

I've been in this industry over 40 years... and what I look for is a guy who does mostly alignments and some parts replacement but isn't attached to a tire store... the guy I used in Portland OR worked out of his home close to Woodburn... . usually these guys can run their fingers across the tread and give you some idea of whats wrong... .

Hope this helps. .

 

[pullya]

You might call Kirt at Colo. 4 Wheel Drive in Ft Collins--512-484-5072. He might be able to give you some advise about your problem. Also right next door to his shop is an alignment shop I've used a few times and the guys seem to know what they are doing. Kirt is a member here and I've been using him for about 25 years--honest and does excellent work at a fair price.

Jay

 

[Mr.Goat]

I had the Moog adjustable ball joints put in about one year ago. With the exactly the same results your experiencing. You can't keep the truck on the road your always working to keep it out of the ruhbarb.



I took it back to my mechanic several times, he tried everything he new. Nothing worked and he had another customer with the same truck and the same issues.



Moog quarantees there parts for a year so Moog apparently paid the bill to have the adjustable ones removed and Moog stardard greasable joints put in as replacements. All I know is it didn't cost me a cent to have them replaced and it now handles like it originally did. My mechanic said Moog also covered the cost for doing the other chaps Ram truck as well.



I think the deciding factor on Moog covering the cost is having your mechanic saying to Moog that there balljoints are not satisfactory and are making the truck dangerous to drive, which they are.



Since having the Moog nonadjustable joints put in I have no issues with handling and since there greaseable, and I actually grease them, there holding up well so far!!

 

[JVolpe]

Well I was warned that the Moog Adjustable were not needed, but that is the only part number that came up for Moog joints at the 4 wheel place that does all my suspension work. The parts came in and I dropped the truck off and left. About an hour later the Shop Manager called me and said if you want me to try and install these adjustable ball joints be prepared for additional labor. He said might take two, three or four tries to get them right. Only way to really tell was put them in in one position, align it and then drive it. If not right start over. I said get met some ball joints from NAPA and send the Moog uppers back.

 

[GlennHetchler]

Thanks for the replies. I will talk more with the shop that originally put them in, and see what they can do for me. Maybe they can get Moog to supply the fixed ones. I'll let you know how it works out.

 

[AlaskanCummins]

I'm running Carli uppers and Moog lowers. About 6K miles and the lowers have play in them and I've got the wandering issues again. I'm in the belief that it's all the weight that's on my front end - Cummins, Ruenell bumper and XD900i winch (non-wire cable) + 4 Piaa lights.



The lowers take all the abuse - if you look at how the front end is designed, you can see that the lowers have all the weight on them.



Good news is that Carli is suppose to release lowers in the end of November this year. Since Carli has a lifetime warranty and guarantees that the front end will finally be "fixed", I'm going to buy a set.



Fingers crossed

 

[WoodChuck]

ghetch, I went through the same thing you are. I used the Carli Uppers and Moog lowers and while I was at it I updated the steering linkage to the new Dodge inverted T style, steering box brace and Carli high mount stabilizer.

I experienced the same dodgy (pun intended) steering that you are, the truck was harder to drive than before I put all the new latest greatest parts in. It felt like everything in the road pulled the truck so hard I could get in a wreck if I wasn't careful.

I drove the truck a while and wheeled it a little in the desert and it seemed to get better as it broke in but after wheeling I started hearing knocking noises in the front end when I hit bumps. I check the lower ball joints and found maybe . 009 and . 018 play in the joints which I thought was out of spec so I got ****** and replaced with Dodge lower ball joints. After that the truck drove normal again. It turns out I misread the spec and up to . 090 is allowed so the Moog's were still Ok but the OEM joints are so much smoother. Evidently tight ball joints tend to hang and cause erratic steering problems.

Even though the OEM joints are Ok I will eventually upgrade to Carli lowers too.

 

[GlennHetchler]

Thanks for the replies. I met with the shop owner and they will replace the adjustable Moogs with fixed under warranty. Just recently he had similar problems on a couple of other trucks. Also, his alignment shop begged him to quit bringing them adjustable ones, and start using fixed.

This TDR forum and articles was a valuable resource. He asked for the copies I had printed out and highlighted. It seems this group has credibility, and helped me know what to ask for. So I'm getting Moog fixed ones. Work will be done this week. I'll post how things worked out.

If the group is happy with the Carlis over the long run, maybe I'll try them next time (hopefully that will be many years, as I'm done moving our family across country).

 

[WoodChuck]

Please let us know how it drives after the work is complete.

 

[GlennHetchler]

Its been a week and a couple hundred miles since they put the fixed ball joints in. What a world of difference. It is again a pleasure to drive. I haven't towed with it yet (and don't have any immediate plans to), but it drives nicely down the road.

You really get to know how a shop is to work with when you have a problem. I can heartily recommend Triad Power Systems in Loveland, CO. They are not happy until you are happy. They are straight shooters who strive to do the job right, for a fair price. And they maintain a fleet of Rams for a large customer that does landscape and plowing, so although they work on a variety of trucks, they see a bunch of Rams.

I may keep tinkering with the steering/suspension a bit (using the collective knowledge of this group) trying to get it even better, but its back to the point of having a good attitude. It doesn't fight and bite any more after putting in the fixed ball joints. The alignment shops could never get it there with the adjustables.

The alignment shop did give me the printout of the final results, if anybody wants me to post them to this thread.

Thanks for the suggestions and help.
-Glenn

 

[WoodChuck]

I'm glad for you it's fixed. I'd be interested in seeing the print out.

 

[CookJ]

I experienced the same problem going with the adjustable ones (and still am to this day). The truck is all over the road, especially when towing. The only reason i had them replaced in the first place was because the upper joints were close to needing replacing. I ended up having all four replaced and went with the adjustable uppers for increased caster (sure wish i hadn't now). I actually took the truck back to the tire shop that installed them on four separate occasions with no luck. They told me to take it elsewhere, and, if the problem is corrected, they will refund me the labor. I have yet to find a shop that will try and tackle these adjustable ball joints. I will attempt an offroad shop later this week.

 

[tolmsted]

Do it yourself and feel good about the results.

For what it's worth mentioning. The Englewood, Colo. BEAR ALIGNMENT shop did what I feel was a wonderful, fast while I waited, and correct alignment on my 01, 4x4 and for about $50. 00 if I recall correctly. This was after I replaced all 4 ball joints from Quad 4x4 in Montana and not the cheap but the best new track bar from local NAPA/Genuine Auto Parts. I also installed a Steering box brace from Geno's Garage. PRESTO Oo. No more steering and/or tire problems. :-laf



Hope this helps someone.

 

[JBlomenberg]

Guys, reading this post describes exactly what I'm experiencing. Truck is aweful to drive, and scares me to be honest. Looks like I need to get some standard upper Ball joints put in. Anyone have any luck getting Moog to Replace?

 

[CookJ]

Took my truck to another allignment shop this morning for them to trouble shoot the problems i've had. They found that by removing the two steering stabilizers, the truck now drives straight with no wandering. They also claim the upper/lower bj's are okay. I did not ask for them to allign anything just yet because I'm still trying to figure this one out, and, contemplating replacing the uppers with non-adjustable bjs.



I don't have the old allignment specs in front of me, but, if the original shop alligned the front with as much positive caster as possible, would this have had any affects on the stabilizer set up i am running, or, the workings of (due to the increased angle)? Driving back to work today, i did notice the truck driving much better and straight. However, there is no way i will continue driving it without the stabilizers . Any information/thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[WoodChuck]

Took my truck to another allignment shop this morning for them to trouble shoot the problems i've had. They found that by removing the two steering stabilizers, the truck now drives straight with no wandering. They also claim the upper/lower bj's are okay. I did not ask for them to allign anything just yet because I'm still trying to figure this one out, and, contemplating replacing the uppers with non-adjustable bjs.

I don't have the old allignment specs in front of me, but, if the original shop alligned the front with as much positive caster as possible, would this have had any affects on the stabilizer set up i am running, or, the workings of (due to the increased angle)? Driving back to work today, i did notice the truck driving much better and straight. However, there is no way i will continue driving it without the stabilizers . Any information/thoughts would be appreciated.

I had the same thing happen to a '85 Toyota 4x with a solid axle. With a single Rancho stabilizer it drove fine but with doubles it sucked on and off raod. I have an adjustable steering stabilizer on my KTM dirt bike and the same thing happens if I crank in too much damping, it feels unnatural and harder to control when going slower off road. From my experience lots of steering damping works best at high speeds in sand only.

 

[CookJ]

Woodchuck, I never had this issue until i decided to replace the ball joints last year. I ran the single stabilizer and swapped to the dual after lifting the truck a few years ago; the duals byfar handled better than the single with never a single problem till now.



I briefly inspected the stabilizers after picking up the truck today and both appear to be in good shape, however, i will look a little closer this evening. Anyway, still finding it hard to believe the stabilizers could be the problem.

 

[EDankievitch]

Just a quick note I had problems with the Moog Adjustable upper Ball joints as well. Scrap them and go for the Carrlie I think I got the name wrong ut they are the best upper joints you can buy and just might out last your truck