Slipping Clutch, under 50k?

[RVTRKN]

Yes, an update in 2009 caused it. It was stock until 2016 when I added EFILive.

 

[MichaelOverfield]

Yes, an update in 2009 caused it. It was stock until 2016 when I added EFILive.

Ok, that makes sense, mine had a recall and reprogram not long after I got it, the original program might have been the one that had the problem (it would have been the 2009 program you had done).

How did the SB DD3250 work for you prior to the EFILive? I'm told to expect it to be a virtual "on/off" device with a stock tune. Did the EFI tune improve the function of the clutch? It seems you have the ideal prior experience to give me insight on this.

 

[hwebster]

Hmmm had the same experience with my '08 Replaced the clutch at about 80K - sadly I had the dealer replace it and ended up in the same boat not long after. Went to a Southbend G56 CON OFE at that time. Been a few years and lots of miles and I need to replace it so I went with Southbend SSD3250-G-ORG. Should arrive tomorrow.... H

 

[JR]

John,

I have disassembled the Valeo 7.3L DMF and the LuK G56 DMF. That Valeo version has an internal torque limiting clutch pack, 2 belleville springs and 2 friction surfaces. You could bolt it to a big bench, bolt a 6' angle iron to the clutch cover bolt holes and rotate the secondary and the primary stays put. I've done it. Also took the G56 LuK version apart, no friction elements internally. I think if the LuK G56 happened to completely self destruct, it would be making a racket and be undrivable. Most likely it would jam up locked and big nasty. Also cut a 2000 VW 1.9L ALH DMF apart, that was a completely different design again.

FWIW, PM sent.

Gary

Hi Gary,

Do you still own/drive your TDI?

Over the winter the wife's 01 tdi began shuttering heavily under load...at 200k on the original clutch I figured it was time. I was a bit surprised upon disassembly to find an acceptable amount of clutch disc material remaining and the DMF completely spun. What a treat that was getting at the flywheel bolts!

 

[GCroyle]

Hi Gary,

Do you still own/drive your TDI?

Over the winter the wife's 01 tdi began shuttering heavily under load...at 200k on the original clutch I figured it was time. I was a bit surprised upon disassembly to find an acceptable amount of clutch disc material remaining and the DMF completely spun. What a treat that was getting at the flywheel bolts!

JR,

Still ticking along. Just finished a TB and all related parts two weeks ago. Took me all weekend but no bandaids or bent valves. Also bought a VAGCOM for diagnostics.

Yeah, I've seen a few pics of a certain brand DFM that destructs and rotates over and locks the secondary over the bolts, no access. Disc grinder time.

If SWMBO was polite to the facings, she's a keeper.

Gary

 

[JR]

Wish we could have conversed prior to your TB job. Unless of course you already had access to all the tools. I bought everything to do mine last summer and would have gladly shipped you my stuff. Did you use your vagcom to dial in the timing? I have not electronically timed mine, it seems to run well but I wonder how close I got it.

 

[RVTRKN]

How did the SB DD3250 work for you prior to the EFILive? I'm told to expect it to be a virtual "on/off" device with a stock tune. Did the EFI tune improve the function of the clutch? It seems you have the ideal prior experience to give me insight on this.

Even less than your HP, C&C in 07 was 305 HP not until @2016 did I add EFILive. It shifted ok and I didn’t mind the extra grab, but you should feel it grab early then fully engage.

 

[MichaelOverfield]

Even less than your HP, C&C in 07 was 305 HP not until @2016 did I add EFILive. It shifted ok and I didn’t mind the extra grab, but you should feel it grab early then fully engage.

Thanks, that is very helpful. South Bend defintily did not recommend the this dual disk on a stock truck, but did say use of 1st for starts, and low range for trailer backing will make it better. I do that often with the original clutch right now. It may well be the incentive for a tune, and it will be either the Smarty or EFI Live.

 

[MichaelOverfield]

Well, after considerable work, old clutch is out. It had plenty of lining... And it was that DMF. It was extremely loose and on it's way to coming apart. It's interesting that it would cause a slipping clutch, perhaps it's like and impact wrench when it hits the hard stop and gets the slipping started. In any case it's never going back in, the South Bend is partly installed now. Hopefully I'll finish it later today. #ad

 

[GCroyle]

Any chance for a pic showing the self adjusting spring? That's the about 3/8" diameter coil spring in the cover itself, it faces the transmission side.

 

[MichaelOverfield]

Any chance for a pic showing the self adjusting spring? That's the about 3/8" diameter coil spring in the cover itself, it faces the transmission side.

I'll take one and post it, from the old pressure plate.. the new one is now not visible. I pulled an all-nighter and I'm now almost complete.. had to call it quits at 0400 and get a shower and nap before work. To see the DMF issue a short video would be needed, or a series of pictures, it rotates freely until a hard stop about 1 inch along the OD, there are videos out there showing that exact DMF failure, its like the springs are too short, or some part are missing. It's pretty loud just moving it back and forth, plus there is considerable free play between the two parts of the flywheel, from what I read both would be signs of impending catastrophic failure.

 

[GCroyle]

Your description of the DMF is actually pretty clear, in particular the hard stop. The damper springs are lets just call them wornout and possibly the center bushing the locates the secondary on the primary.

But I know of know way that the DMF itself was slipping, remember your hard stop comment.

And a pic of the facing so we can see the wear with the SAC spring might allow some comments.

Its a job to R&R that trans, give yourself an atta boy.

 

[petersonj]

Your description of the DMF is actually pretty clear, in particular the hard stop. The damper springs are lets just call them wornout and possibly the center bushing the locates the secondary on the primary.

But I know of know way that the DMF itself was slipping, remember your hard stop comment.

I know now from your previous explanation that the DMF is not slipping and I don't think MichaelOverfield thinks it is slipping, either. I still can't help but wonder if the early failings of the DMF are causing, or at least contributing to the cause of slipping clutch - maybe the worn DMF parts are causing harsh pounding to the clutch disc and pressure plate?

Can a problem with the self-adjusting clutch feature cause reduced clamping force from the pressure plate?

Hopefully, an upcoming photo and your expertise will help pinpoint the cause of the failure.

MichaelOverfield, I really feel for you having such an early clutch / DMF failure. Your patience has to be commended.

- John

 

[MichaelOverfield]

It's all back together, will be driving it today. Here are a few pictures of the old clutch. #ad

 

[MichaelOverfield]

Here's a couple of pics of the transmission before install. The FastCoolers and my start for a custom external cooler can be seen. For now the hose just connects together for keeping dirt out. Later this will go to an external cooler, pump, and filter to keep the transmission cool. A project for another day. #ad

 

[photowrite]

I know now from your previous explanation that the DMF is not slipping and I don't think MichaelOverfield thinks it is slipping, either. I still can't help but wonder if the early failings of the DMF are causing, or at least contributing to the cause of slipping clutch - maybe the worn DMF parts are causing harsh pounding to the clutch disc and pressure plate?

Can a problem with the self-adjusting clutch feature cause reduced clamping force from the pressure plate?

Hopefully, an upcoming photo and your expertise will help pinpoint the cause of the failure.

MichaelOverfield, I really feel for you having such an early clutch / DMF failure. Your patience has to be commended.

- John

Good questions/thoughts.

James

 

[RVTRKN]

Mike, won't the exhaust be in the way of that cooler on the passenger side, mine was and I shaved down that portion of the cooler as not to interfere with it. Then I wrapped the Exhaust to help from transferring heat. If you look closely at the coolers, you'll see what I described.

 

[MichaelOverfield]

Mike, won't the exhaust be in the way of that cooler on the passenger side....

It clears, but not by much. When I first put these in, I had to make the bolts about 1/8" shorter on that side to get it in, but this time I used new proper bolts. Probably part of the reason I had a slight weepage was inability to get a good seal doing it in place with the fluid change. I'll be putting the cooler just forward of the fuel tank, at a slight angle, with an electric fan, pump, and filter housing. The thermostat will come on at 205, off at 185. That is what you see on the other side, in addition to the sender for the temperature gauge, just below the sight glass. I won't get around to completing that until later this year, maybe. Have to fabricate the custom mounting brackets and get it all in there. This is modeled loosely off your system.

BTW, what exhaust wrap did you use, and does it work well for you?

 

[RVTRKN]

Got it on line a few years ago, I don't remember info anymore. But a standard exhaust wrap should work. Now that I don't need the coolers anymore, I'm going to remove them and have bungs welded onto the original PTO covers and install them.

 

[GCroyle]

I know now from your previous explanation that the DMF is not slipping and I don't think MichaelOverfield thinks it is slipping, either. I still can't help but wonder if the early failings of the DMF are causing, or at least contributing to the cause of slipping clutch - maybe the worn DMF parts are causing harsh pounding to the clutch disc and pressure plate?

Can a problem with the self-adjusting clutch feature cause reduced clamping force from the pressure plate?

Hopefully, an upcoming photo and your expertise will help pinpoint the cause of the failure.

- John

OK, pics help a bit but are not test results.

1. Pressure plate shows normal wear color, no huge discolorations.
2. Self Adjusting spring "length". When new, spring is almost touching coil to coil, disc gets thinner spring expands, one very small increment at a time. The spring is pushing against the adjuster, doing its job.
3. Facings still are not down to rivet heads. Dust grooves still pretty deep.
4. Diaphragm spring tips show some wear but I'm not seeing big flats where the bearing was riding.
5. Might be interesting to see your observations about the guide tube condition and grease in the old bearing cast iron collar.
6. Self adjusting springs. If they were all the way out but the disc still had "meat" on it, then you can point at a pressure plate that thinks the disc is thin when its not. That messes up the clamping force.

No test results and just pic's to review. I didn't see a smokin gun.

Gary