Smarty jr...40-70hp will I kill my stock trans?

[Bob4x4]

Add 100 to 235-add 100 to 325



Played on the dyno many times with many different configurations,not talking about full on builds then we are novo her talking apples to apples

 

[Bob4x4]

Jess this discussion is about a stock truck with nothing more than exhaust and Smarty jr. Lol

 

[AH64ID]

Add 100 to 235-add 100 to 325

Played on the dyno many times with many different configurations,not talking about full on builds then we are novo her talking apples to apples

Close, Smarty makes an SO an HO and then the added power. So 305 +100 and 325 +100. The 03/04 SO's or Cali's get the best bang for the buck.

 

[JJPage]

You should dable in UDC. if you don't want to tune it yourself custom tunes are fairly reasonable.

Eventually I will, I am not computer savvy so a bit gun shy. Is this maybe an offering to write me a tune ?, for reasonable compensation of course

Jess this discussion is about a stock truck with nothing more than exhaust and Smarty jr. Lol

I know, easy to get off track, sorry to the OP.
Bob, with the exception of my trans, intake(afe) and EZ, the rest of my truck was OEM for about the first 4 years. With the addition of a TST/EZ stack I was able to dyno in the(very hot egts) 490+ hp range, the early Smarty tunes netted the almost same results, I could never break 500 hp. By that time there were lots of 04. 5+ 3rd gens, most of them were stuck around the 450+ hp range with the same TST/EZ, or TST/Bullydog, PPE, Smarty programming. I am sure there were some that did better, but generally that was where they were at.

Now with today's advanced tunes, you and John may be correct, I have just not personally witnessed it. At different events, I've heard plenty of folks say the same thing, some or most who do not have any experience in the matter, but just because it is repeated over and over, doesn't make it so.

It's good to know you have a good running and responsive truck, you're obviously proud of it, I am of mine too.

To the OP, Let us know what you do, and how you like it.

Jess

Gonzaga won. . barely!

 

[Wingate]

I have been runing a Jr on my 06 for about a year and a half or so... Although my truck doesnt get driven every day, when it doesn, its usually towing a 10K lb TT, 18K worth of hay and trailer... or one of my BILs broke down vehicles... So far, no trans issues... (knock on wood)
I loaded up the economy tune and made no adjustments to anything... simply default Economy tune.

 

[SierraRam]

My question is why by a programmer if you have to "baby" your truck? Better off leaving it stock and driving it. If you want more power and be able to use it you will need to upgrade your drive train, how much depends on how much power you plan on adding.



I have seen mwny people swear they will never turn their programmer up past the lowest settings. Then the little devil sitting on you shoulder says " try the higher power just for a minute to see what it feels like". That is the beginning of the end... ... ... .

 

[Bouma]

My question is why by a programmer if you have to "baby" your truck? Better off leaving it stock and driving it. If you want more power and be able to use it you will need to upgrade your drive train, how much depends on how much power you plan on adding.

I have seen mwny people swear they will never turn their programmer up past the lowest settings. Then the little devil sitting on you shoulder says " try the higher power just for a minute to see what it feels like". That is the beginning of the end... ... ... .

I can see that happening. After this post I have made up my mind I am going to get the trans done. Now the question is how far do I go? I originally was looking at a new valve body, input shaft, single disk converter,etc. But then you think, huh... . well I could buy a sr instead of the jr... ... huh I guess I could dig a little deeper and do a triple disc converter, flex plate, pan, etc, etc... . Now I just need to see how much of this I can sell to my wife

 

[AH64ID]

If you set it and forget it then there is no need to baby it, just don't go crazy with the settings.

There are more reasons than just the trans to stick to level 1 for towing on a stock truck. Unless you don't tow anything heavy, with wind resistance, or live in Kansas then the stock turbo cannot keep up with SW2 on grades above about 4-5K feet depending on temp, load, gearing, etc. So you add another level of monitoring there.

SW1 is not a weak program, and makes about 90-100 ft/lbs extra where you want it, in the the 1600-2400 range.

 

[cerberusiam]

Yep, that is always the question. How far to go with the mods. There are 2 things I do not like about the triple disk converters; weight and the impact on the TH feature.

The extra weight just seems to be a step backwatds unless circumstances dictate it, ie constant heavy towing or high power applications. In a normal usage it has to rob some power that could be better used at the wheels.

The triple and the TH shift lock startegies end up being problematic at times. You have to slow down the TC lockup apply under heavy throttle or the bang in, which ends leading to more slip to get a smooth shift. The pulsed lockup of on the OD shift in TH is hard to compensate for because the triples just don't unlock like a single. Makes the driveability a little hard to take at times. It is bad enough with a single disk and barking the turbo, the tripls just enhance that problem a bit more. Ends up being a trade off because there is no good way to tune sift lock strategies. Not even sure EFI Live has the ability to influence those areas.

 

[JJPage]

Yep, that is always the question. How far to go with the mods. There are 2 things I do not like about the triple disk converters; weight and the impact on the TH feature.

The extra weight just seems to be a step backwatds unless circumstances dictate it, ie constant heavy towing or high power applications. In a normal usage it has to rob some power that could be better used at the wheels.

The triple and the TH shift lock startegies end up being problematic at times. You have to slow down the TC lockup apply under heavy throttle or the bang in, which ends leading to more slip to get a smooth shift. The pulsed lockup of on the OD shift in TH is hard to compensate for because the triples just don't unlock like a single. Makes the driveability a little hard to take at times. It is bad enough with a single disk and barking the turbo, the tripls just enhance that problem a bit more. Ends up being a trade off because there is no good way to tune sift lock strategies. Not even sure EFI Live has the ability to influence those areas.

Cerb, That is some very useful information. I do not have the TH feature so that wouldn't be an issue, but have long been "wishing" for a triple disc converter, now maybe not so much.

When DTT did my trans in late 04, they didn't offer or believe in a triple disc. They guaranteed my single to hold up to 500hp... been north of that for some time, but other than the dyno's it doesn't get beat on. My question is, a few years back while in a conversation with Stefan/DTT, he said the clutch material they used to use is no longer available, and the new material wasn't as substantial, so they started including a triple disc in their line up, now the question, is there a suitable clutch material available today that will hold up as good as mine apparently has? Or do you have to increase line pressure to compensate creating harder shifts, or does line pressure not affect converter lockup? Excuse my lack of knowledge, auto trans are above my pay grade. Jess

 

[cerberusiam]

Yeah, the numbers thrown around on HP and such are really a SWAG. The HP is not the problem it is the TQ rise at lockup that really eats up the clutches. The 500 HP really assumes around 1000 ft\lbs TQ and being able to hold that on shift points for for a decent MTBF. The MTBF is the really the only factor that applies. If it is lifetime warranty then it should hold that forever along with the rest of the parts, abuse and maintenance being normal. In a racing and pulling application that becomes critical because it is constant at those levels. In a tow rig or DD not so much. You may be able to drop 600 HP on a dyno but it is not likely it is seeing that and the associated TQ hit in daily use. As you said you don't beat on it so you are likely not driving it foot on the floor all the time and hammering those shift points for the bets ET's and\or distances.



I think with the clutch material DDT was using the supplier quit doing it or went ouf business and the material got prohibitively expensive. AFAIK, DTT was really the only one that would guarantee a single disk in high HP allpications so my guess is thta particular material is longer easily source. What they use in the triple disks is probably the best that is reasonably available and triple has 3 times the clutch surface so holidng characteristics is better. Like Goerend told me a long time ago, clutch holding is a function of pressure and area. Raise either one and you achieve the same results.



It is just easier and cheaper to make a triple disk hold power and still make a profit for most places. Nobody wants to pay $1200 for a single disk when a triple will hold the power for 1/2 the cost. Purely economics in a lot of ways.



I have run a single disk for over 100k with genrally a 450 max HP tune that will top 1000 ft lbs driven correctly. For daily use never seeing over 800 ft\lbs or so and it has lasted well. They told me mine was good for 600 HP when I got it so I guess when I have it cut apart, checked, and relined we shall see just how good it really was. Thats the only real gauge is how does the TC last with your power levels and driving characteristics, the rest is just numbers and SWAG's.



That said I run a lot more pressure than a typical build. By 1600 rpms mine was at 160 psi, 2000-2500 180-200 psi, 2600+ to WOT netted 230+ psi. A lot of builds will not ever see over 180 max and generally 110-120 psi at the typical shift points. Under hard throttle and a load mine trans will have almost twice the apply pressure a typical triple build will have. The problem is that apply pressure also goes to the clutches along with the TC clutch. You pull down the apply for the TC ltuch it pulls holding power of the directs and forward clutches which absorb the TQ rise in the 2-3 and 3-4 shift, plus, the kinetic transfer at lockup.



At lockup with a triple under moderate to heavy power and load drops rpms 500-600 and if you think about it that is a LOT of energy transfer for an RPM drop. Hence, with a triple disk a billet input is almost a must . A single will slip somewhat in those conditions but a slong as the fluid is good (back to fluid change intervals), the cover and piston don't doesn't warp, the slip will not result in burning or eating up the frictions in the TC. When you over power the TC clutch it rattles BAD. As long as it engages firmly it will last a long time. With a single you can run higher pressures, tweak the 3-4 accumulator somewhat and still have a solid long life trans that works quite well.



I have not heard of anybody yet that can tune a triple to run under what I believe is need for apply pressures to the main clutches abd still NOT get into 3-4 shift\lock situations that bar the crap out the turbo and knock dust off the headliner. :-laf Heck, my single barks the turbo bad enough and shifts so firm in TH under load I REALLY don't want to try a triple in those conditions with what I know at this point. That is open to change if I find or someone tells me it is solveable.

 

[JJPage]

Do you believe I would be safe increasing my line pressure above where DTT adjusted it? Or can I blow seals I am not aware of? I see the adjustment on the side of the valve body, and I have been tempted to tweak it while servicing. My notes tell me 1 counter clockwise turn equals 3 psi line pressure increase, my shifts are very firm now but not harsh like some trucks I have ridden in. I have a billet input and hub, but my intermediate and output are OEM.



I have also adjusted my TV cable as much as possible to obtain a happy medium, still not perfect but close. If under 35 mph, with feather light throttle it wants to shuttle between 3rd and 2nd at cruise, kind of annoying but any movement either way with the TV cable, the results are worse. There is an adjustment next to the line pressure adjustment, that shows 1 turn in either direction equals a 75 rpm change, clockwise later shift, counter clockwise earlier shift. I have also thought about turning this counter clockwise + -1 turn for an earlier shift, believing maybe I could eliminate the 2-3-2-3 under 35 mph at very light throttle. As long as I'm accelerating even a little bit this is not an issue, but when driving through the neighborhood 28/32 mph(looking out for kids and animals) at light throttle the shuttle shifting gets annoying.



Do you believe (without accepting any responsibility) that either of these actions that are tempting me would be ok?



Thanks Cerb, Jess

 

[cerberusiam]

Woops! Did I forget to mention the downside to increased pressures, at least what am running? I have broke 2 intermediate flex bands. Ripped the spot welds on the anchor side right off the band. #@$%! The first one was failure from time and pressure, the 2nd one was my fault since I had to modify the anchor side to slip it in with dropping the trans. The last one I modified differently and beefed the spot welds on the edge trying to keep from screwing up the lining. This one has held and I abused it good to make sure.



The stock flex bands are CRAPPY and do not like extend time at high pressures. Need a rigid or semi rigid band for that, which leads down another rat hole discussion about the amount of apply surface that gets actually on to the drum at adeuqate pressure. The flex band actual puts more surface area under more consistent pressure onto the direct drum than a rigid because the pull down points are both on one side. Part of the issue with a rigid band is it needs higher apply pressures to cinch it tight around the circumference, and, even then if things are not right it can hot spot the lining on the apply point side. Drum needs to be round and not ovalled and the semi rigid band needs to be prety close to round for things to work well. In other words it takes more time and fiddling to get it right so most just use a kevlar lined flex band and call it good.



As far as raising line pressures, I wouldn't. You can't get a lot with the adjustment but if you have a flex band 'tis better to err on the side of caution.



The other adjustment is TV pressure and that might help the 2-3 shuttle. By increasing the TV pressure generated at a specific throttle setting it will stretch the shift points a bit and give you some more pressure rise just off idle throttle position that is a pain to deal with. It is like adjusting the TV cable only with a different starting point and finer pressure rise. The TV cable adjustment is really too large of jumps to fine tune things. I always adjusted the TV pressure higher on the RH's to kick up the shift point a bit. The RE's are a pain because the lack of pressure rise right off idle causes sooo many problems in light throttle situations.

 

[JJPage]

The other adjustment is TV pressure and that might help the 2-3 shuttle. By increasing the TV pressure generated at a specific throttle setting it will stretch the shift points a bit and give you some more pressure rise just off idle throttle position that is a pain to deal with. It is like adjusting the TV cable only with a different starting point and finer pressure rise. The TV cable adjustment is really too large of jumps to fine tune things. I always adjusted the TV pressure higher on the RH's to kick up the shift point a bit. The RE's are a pain because the lack of pressure rise right off idle causes sooo many problems in light throttle situations.

Ok Cerb, I'll leave the line pressure alone, sometimes I have a hard time with the adage "if it ain't broke... ".

I believe I would like to adjust the TV pressure, am I correct in my mind, that if I would turn the adjustment counter clockwise, it will shift into 3rd earlier, and not want to "hunt" between 28 and 32 mph? Or would it be better to go the other direction, to stretch the shift point and hold 2nd until 35 mph? I really would like it to shift into third before 35 mph, but , I also realize that having it upshift earlier in the rpm range means less line pressure applied. I am not sure 50/75 rpm less, would be that large of an issue as far as line pressure applied, however if it would cure the 2-3 shuttle between 28-32 mph I would be Jess

Oh, what is MTBF?

 

[cerberusiam]

A 30 mph speed limit should be outlawed, plain and simple. Make it 25 if needed tothwise 35 mpg. That happens to be the optimal shift point for the 2-3 shift and trying to maintain that speed and a gear if there any corners or grades will just make a person crazy. Just a touch of throttle to maintain headway and it shuttles to 2nd picks up the speed quickly and right back to drive. At 25 mph it will hold 2nd and you never have an issue. Same at 35 mph. At 30 mph it is right on the cusp and the balance between TV and gov pressure is so fine it causes shuttle shift.



In my experience, if you try to turn it down and get an earlier shift it makes things owrse because the slightest throttle input causes it to shuttle, 28-32 mph with stock and larger tires is just to slow for drive. Go the other way and force the shift to happen at 32-35 has always been a better choice for me. The higher TV pressure allows you back off the TV cable some so it is not as touchy at 35 mph when you need a little more throttle to maintain speed. Seems to limit the shuttle shift a lot in all the gear changes expecially if you are running a Smarty with TQ management redcution.



Every truck and every build is just a little different so you end up playing with things looking for that happy medium based on your conditions. It is not a one size fits all for sure.



MTBF = Mean Time Between Failure. More statistics that are used to determine the cost of building things better as opposed to cheaper. The idea is to get that stat high enough in the warranty period so costs to build and fix are maximized compared to the selling price. Every single piece on these vehicles is calculated that way. In the case of these tranmissions and extra power, you get 50% that will last with 40-50 HP and 50% that won't without making other changes, it is a coin toss unless you mod the trans.

 

[HBarlow]

My question is why by a programmer if you have to "baby" your truck? Better off leaving it stock and driving it. If you want more power and be able to use it you will need to upgrade your drive train, how much depends on how much power you plan on adding.

I have seen mwny people swear they will never turn their programmer up past the lowest settings. Then the little devil sitting on you shoulder says " try the higher power just for a minute to see what it feels like". That is the beginning of the end... ... ... .

That would be my opinion also.

The last 5. 9s ran and towed very strong in factory form.

 

[JJPage]

A 30 mph speed limit should be outlawed, plain and simple. Make it 25 if needed tothwise 35 mpg. That happens to be the optimal shift point for the 2-3 shift and trying to maintain that speed and a gear if there any corners or grades will just make a person crazy. Just a touch of throttle to maintain headway and it shuttles to 2nd picks up the speed quickly and right back to drive. At 25 mph it will hold 2nd and you never have an issue. Same at 35 mph. At 30 mph it is right on the cusp and the balance between TV and gov pressure is so fine it causes shuttle shift.

In my experience, if you try to turn it down and get an earlier shift it makes things owrse because the slightest throttle input causes it to shuttle, 28-32 mph with stock and larger tires is just to slow for drive. Go the other way and force the shift to happen at 32-35 has always been a better choice for me. The higher TV pressure allows you back off the TV cable some so it is not as touchy at 35 mph when you need a little more throttle to maintain speed. Seems to limit the shuttle shift a lot in all the gear changes expecially if you are running a Smarty with TQ management redcution.

Every truck and every build is just a little different so you end up playing with things looking for that happy medium based on your conditions. It is not a one size fits all for sure.

MTBF = Mean Time Between Failure. More statistics that are used to determine the cost of building things better as opposed to cheaper. The idea is to get that stat high enough in the warranty period so costs to build and fix are maximized compared to the selling price. Every single piece on these vehicles is calculated that way. In the case of these tranmissions and extra power, you get 50% that will last with 40-50 HP and 50% that won't without making other changes, it is a coin toss unless you mod the trans.

I am going to keep my cotton pickin fingers off both adjustments.

You brought up a very good point about 30 mph speed limits. With any luck our home will sell this year, then it's bye bye washington state with all their goofy taxes, laws, limits, restrictions and regulations. I essentially will be removing myself from this irritation while driving the last couple of miles to and from our house.

Cerb, Thanks for all the info. Op, sorry I took your thread so far off track. Jess