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The Criterion barrel is "ON ITS WAY"! Earlier than thought.
The fore end that I want to use for the 16" is not in stock. Haven't decided on which gas block to use, as yet. Flash suppressor is not on the priority list at this time.
Here are the gas blocks I am considering;

http://www.brownells.com/rifle-part...r-15-m16-low-profile-gas-block-prod26994.aspx

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Daniel-Defense-Clamp-Low-Profile-Gas-Block-p/dd-9091.htm

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Vltor-Sight-Tower-p/vltor sight tower 2c.htm

http://www.blackrivertactical.com/concrete5/micropin-gas-block/
http://www.blackrivertactical.com/pdf/Install-Instructions-MicroPin-Gas-Block.pdf

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/PRI-Gas-Block-With-Top-Picatinny-Rail-p/pri 05-075-04 gas block.htm
For use with the Dueck Defense or "Sure Fire" Rapid Transition sights


Here are the for ends I am considering; (not sure about length and application) (Come with proprietary barrel nut and installation wrench)
#1. http://www.store-diamondhead-usa.com/V_RS_T_Free_FloatIng_Handguard_System_p/2211.htm

#2. http://www.tieronearms.com/product-p/cmr14.htm (Centurion)

#3. http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Primary-Weapon-Systems-12-KeyMod-Rail-AR15-M4-Pa-p/pws-5kmr1121.htm

#4. http://www.tieronearms.com/Noveske-NSR-p/nsr-11.htm

Course, there is the gas tube/pin assembly, and the flash suppressor for the carbine length barrel (16+").
Still waiting on the Ruger refund before ordering. Probably February?

Heads up on this flash suppressor was from HHhuntitall. For the price? Its worth trying. With ports matching the rifling rotation.
http://www.brownells.com/rifle-part...ers/ar-15-m16-flash-suppressor-prod29329.aspx

GregH
 
Remember - if you go with other than low profile gas block, your handguard will have to be the right length designation for the gas system. 7" for a carbine, 9" for a midlength (another reason to avoid the integrated rail gas blocks), unless you can get one of the cut out versions, but those are typically for the standard M4 FSP.

Midwest Industries has some nice one piece tube style handguards as well.

http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=450

http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=page.display&page_id=34
 
Sticks,
Was looking for that source. Forgot the web site!, Thanks! Definitely Like the "Key-Mod" fore ends.
Don't care to mount a front sight on a fore end.
Front sight should be mounted on the barrel, regardless if they are primary or secondary sighting systems.
While these new fore ends are very rigid, with sling attachments, lights, et al. hanging off of them.
I, personally, do not like the idea of incorporating a sighting system on a cantilevered mount.
GregH
 
The good quality free float hadguards are extremely rigid, and there is little to worry about in regards to loosing zero with the irons.

I understand you are set in your desire to have the FSP mounted to the barrel. I would look into getting a standard M4 "F" marked FSP/gas block.

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR15-Front-Sight-F-Marked-p/front%20sight%20base%20-%20f%20750.htm

A bolt on FSP to the gas block, or integrated (flip up) there is still movement. I have yet to see a flip up FSP that is 100% solid. There is movement when they are up. Bolt on rigid FSP also can come loose (locktite is your friend). IMO you are not gaining anything by going that route, but you are loosing 5+" of rail/barrel shroud.

IIRC you have a mill, or at least the skills to do the machining, you might be able to take a full length 14"+ rail and cut out the top rail section clean enough to get around your gas block choices - if it's a 2 piece, maybe a one piece if you can get to the pin and screws on your gas block through the handguard vents/keymod holes.

Another option is to go with a RECCE style, where there is a "dummy" gasblock/FSP mounted really far forward on the barrel, and using a low profile gasblock under the handguard.

http://jggunsmith.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/ar15_mk12-recce_bbl_right.jpg?w=1350
 
The low profile gas block with a forward mount front sight base on the barrel set up has crossed my mind. Was waiting on the barrel blank to check the dimensions.
IMHO, point loading a barrel with set screws creates compression that can transmit deflection into the bore. That is one reason for my stubborn refusal to accept the "pinned block".
I do not expect to fire 10,000 rounds a year out of either upper. Nobody is paying me to shoot "their ammo"!:{
Many AR competition shooters use the clamp on gas blocks, which spread radial compression over a larger area. Reducing the chance of point compression from set screws. (Which require a wall thickness reduction for the location dimples.)

I already have one set of BUS's that would work, using a RDS on the same plane. However, The RDS or magnified optics work better with my eyes. The BUS/ "rapid transition sighting system" is just for "eye candy". For a real life "close encounter" I would much prefer a laser designator. I just might focus on this route. Reality has a strange way of imposing itself on projects:D

That brings us to fore end length. Using the combat stance/advance and sweep, your fore end hand is farther forward than the traditional "off hand" hold. So what fore end length do you suggest for a 16" carbine.

What do you think of a vertical fore end grip. Crimson trace laser/light combo grip, for instance?


Yes, I could cut out the top rail, similar to a RECCE. If that is the route taken.
Yes, "Loctite", thread locker will certainly be used in clamp on/high temperature applications.

Have a "slip on" muzzle brake on a heavy target rifle that uses the clamp method and copious amounts of Blue "Loctite".
The Brake works fantastic. Just want to shoot it more to get the feel.

GregH
 
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The low profile gas block with a forward mount front sight base on the barrel set up has crossed my mind. Was waiting on the barrel blank to check the dimensions.
IMHO, point loading a barrel with set screws creates compression that can transmit deflection into the bore. That is one reason for my stubborn refusal to accept the "pinned block".
The pinned blocks do not point load. Machined fit, slide into position, and the pin does nothing but keep it from rotating, or drifting forward or back. No pressure on the barrel. The pin groove is a half circle (ish) in the bottom of the barrel of whatever the pin is, 1/16", maybe smaller. There are a few that are complete holes. I can not remember what either of mine was from Centurion. Even with a complete hole, there is not really a weak point since the pin is reinforcing the drilled portion - plugging the hole via press fit. Ex - .0625x hole, .0625y pin. My Mk12, DMR barrel designed and expected to make shots to 700y, pinned gas block. Let go of your worries of potential accuracy problems - itty bitty bullet, low pressure compared to .308 calibers and larger.

View attachment 87682
I do not expect to fire 10,000 rounds a year out of either upper. Nobody is paying me to shoot "their ammo"!:{
Many AR competition shooters use the clamp on gas blocks, which spread radial compression over a larger area. Reducing the chance of point compression from set screws. (Which require a wall thickness reduction for the location dimples.)
I can neither confirm or deny, I don't know any comp shooters. Even the Mil. guys that contribute to the forums I frequent, don't touch on this much, other than if pinned, less chance of it being an issue in the field. I'll start up a thread and see where it goes.

I already have one set of BUS's that would work, using a RDS on the same plane. However, The RDS or magnified optics work better with my eyes. The BUS/ "rapid transition sighting system" is just for "eye candy". For a real life "close encounter" I would much prefer a laser designator. I just might focus on this route. Reality has a strange way of imposing itself on projects:D

Exactly - BUIS are borderline pointless with the modern RDS optics (I don't know that yours quite falls into that category - Modern to read 2008 and up ~ another hint to retire that girl and upgrade). Stupid long battery life, and take a heck of a beating and still hold zero. Especially for the privately owned shooters. For me it was a waste of $300 between my two rifles. I knew going into it that I can not shoot w/irons - current vision quality makes it only slightly better than point shooting.

Laser pointers are a double edged sword. ID's your proposed POI, as well as ID's where you are. In a civilized real life 2 way range with 1-2 BG coming at you, likely you only need stop one threat, and the other will turn tail.

That brings us to fore end length. Using the combat stance/advance and sweep, your fore end hand is farther forward than the traditional "off hand" hold. So what fore end length do you suggest for a 16" carbine.

What do you think of a vertical fore end grip. Crimson trace laser/light combo grip, for instance?

The current method of stance and support hand grip trickling down from the Mil. is to present the body armor/trauma plate 100% and a modified grip to accommodate a squared stance. For those that do not have body armor, the same theory applies. A shot to the torso squared on, has a higher probability of survival, as generally only one organ will take damage, whereas a shot at an angle may likely damage multiple organs. Ergo the need for proper shot placement.

The adopted forward grip on the handguard is an absolute PITA to maintain for any length of time unless you have weeks of solid practice to develop the muscles for it. It is designed as a fast present on target, recoil control (muzzle rise and follow through), sweep, and lower in to a "low ready" position that is mildly comfortable....Very long explanation that I won't get into. It works. I was a traditional bladed stance shooter when I got into this. If I have to hold on target standing for any length of time, I revert back to it, unless at a training class (I preferred not to be yelled at for my stance).

Foregrip is entirely up to the shooter. Some like the vertical, I liked my angled (Magpul AFG), some like just a little stub to act as a block/reference point while having the support hand wrapped around the handguard, and some go without any.

As for what length of handguard on a 16", if running a low profile gas block, as long as possible for me. I have long arms, and the longer the better for mounting a light (Streamlight TLRS) so it will not interfere with my grip shooting strong side or support side, and a longer BUIS sight radius (pointless for me).

My 16" middy has a Centurion 12" C4 rail, and I wish it was a 15". My Mk12 has a 15" (Midwest Industries SS Gen2 tube style) and I love it. I can get the proper locked elbow on my support arm and a good solid grip on the forward end of the handguard - no forward bolt on grip or light, just the bipod mounting stud.

Yes, I could cut out the top rail, similar to a RECCE. If that is the route taken.

The RECCE style does not have a notched handugard, it is a sight block mounted forward of the handugard/just behind the muzzle device as shown in the example I posted in an earlier post. An actual RECCE is using a rifle length gas port on a 14.5" - 16" barrel. Being a RECCE style, would be using a carbine or mid-length gas port (I don't know anyone who used the intermediate gas port ~ half way between carbine and middy) and the sight block gas port is not used for anything other than the sight. It just gives you your desire to have the FSP mounted to the barrel, and a longer handguard. Like I said, you are either going to be stuck with a 9" handguard, a 10" - 11" with the cut out for the FSP, or modify a longer one and hope you can get to the gas tube pin and clamping screws through the cutouts in the handguard. Your rifle, you gotta shoot it.

Yes, "Loctite", thread locker will certainly be used in clamp on/high temperature applications.

Have a "slip on" muzzle brake on a heavy target rifle that uses the clamp method and copious amounts of Blue "Loctite".
The Brake works fantastic. Just want to shoot it more to get the feel.

GregH

Talked to Tech support at Diamondhead.
Ordered the 13.5" VRS-T fore end.
It has a proprietary barrel nut and installation wrench.
Good description of their system;

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_12/580422_Diamondhead_VRS_T_Angular_Handguard___Info_and_Pics.html

Just a piece at a time, here:D
Was this for the 16" or the 20" upper"

Got some cash from another factory buy-back of an unsatisfactory optic.
Tried a Minox scope. It was optically out of center. Obsolete model.
Got a full refund from Minox USA!
GregH

Aimpoint PRO can be found for $400 delivered. Might be some deals out there or on the equipment exchange (another subtle hint to retire your old one :D

As common with any optic, the good ones are expensive and the RDS are not exempt. $400 for the PRO, another $230 for a 3x Vortex magnifier (have not heard anything bad about the magnifier, only their RDS - seen it too) to $800 for an Aimpoint 3x magnifier. - You will want a flip up not fixed. 3x is too much magnification for contact to 20 yards. 2.5x for me is pushing it....referencing your 16" upper here. You will definitely be going with a good scope on your 20" I presume. There goes another $500 - $1500 - you know the game.

FWIW Burris Eliminator II and III have an integrated laser rangefinder that is getting really good AR user reviews ($650 and scary up), and Nikon has a scope that you can order custom BDC knobs for your own loads that is also getting really good AR user reviews ($200).

Even on your 16" there are several really good 1-4x variable scopes with illumination that would work well for you. Magnified vs. RDS - user preference. I have both, I can shoot both effectively strong side and support side with both eyes open and there is not much if any time loss in target acquisition and transition with my magnified.
 
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Sticks,
A lot of information. I'll have to take it in steps.
Let go of your worries of potential accuracy problems - itty bitty bullet, low pressure compared to .308 calibers and larger.
Sorry, some misunderstanding here. You are correct in stating that a pinned block exerts no point loading. I would use one if it was factory installed.
The Aftermarket, do-it-yourself pinned blocks require an expensive fixture, and/or use set screws on the bottom to locate the block and hold it for drilling.
There are a couple of exceptions, but still requiring a fixture and a tapered pin reamer for best results .
A point load on a barrel from location set screws can deflect the bore .0005".
Little bitty bullets don't like to be squeezed down by a restriction and released into a larger dimension any more than large bullets do. Not conducive to accuracy in the least!

The fore end I ordered is for the 16" barrel. The project start priorities got turned around. No one has the VLTOR MUR 1A receivers, in stock, so I will have to use the one I presently have or order the standard Mil-Spec upper for the carbine. Not what I had in mind. Course, that would save about $50 on this leg of the project?

Seeing is believing, with the RDS, I reckon. The Aimpoint 5000 is nearly 25+ years old. I am still using the original batteries. I did check them and they look good, for now. I will replace them before getting serious.
As far as "practical"? With a 7MOA dot, at close range (Under 100 yards), no problem. At 200 yards, quite a coverage (14"+)!
I wont replace it with another RDS. Maybe a simple, low power scope or just keep the Aimpoint and learn to use it, as is?
The longer range plan is to use the Leupold 4.5X14 scope on the Marksman upper. Not "Tacticool" but quite useful. I know the sub-tensions and hold overs out to 600 yards with projectiles of similar velocities, by heart! It has been on my elk hunting rifle for 20 years. Excellent optics. Have some gunsmithing to do on the elk rifle and later, spend money on optics for the bolt rifle. Been putting this off for a couple of years! (There is always the option to send it back to Leupold and have them install the Boone and Crockett or the Varmint hunter reticle to closely match trajectories. "Fudds" are not all that clueless!)

Ahhh the "always on laser"! Yes I understand that idea. Laser discipline is necessary. A switch pad on the grip/fore end is necessary. For us old folks, I believe it to be a real tactical (not "Tacticool") advantage.

Well, got to go to work. Have wood to sand and a little lathe work to prep. for tomorrow afternoon.
I'll tackle more, tonight!
GregH
 
Sticks,
Reread your post above to make sure I covered the bases.
Hope to have the barrel and fore end in hand, soon.
Thought I would get the barrel, today, but the PO just did not easily pick up and carry the UPS hand off!
Don't really like any of the lower powered optics designed for this application.
Looked at the VORTEX Viper 1-4X with the MOA reticle. Best of the offerings at that price range, IMHO.
http://www.opticsplanet.com/vortex-viper-pst-1-4x24-riflescope.html
Heres another possibility;
http://www.leupold.com/tactical/scopes/mark-ar-riflescopes/mark-ar-mod-1-1-5-4x20mm/

I do have an old Weaver 4X steel tube scope and a Bausch and Lomb 4X, steel tube scope. Plain cross hairs and ready to mount.
No illumination or any other farkles to go haywire!

Now these listed are just for the 16" upper. I want to use the Aimpoint first.
My preference is the availability of more magnification. OR a large dot!! Just so I can see the reticle subtended over the target, with repeatable results.
GregH
 
I can't wrap my head around your having a hard time seeing the dot in an RDS. My PRO, looking at a field of snow, in the sun, with the dot turned all the way up, is borderline blinding in itself (the dot, not the snow). Wonder if you are somewhat colorblind to Red. It is the hardest color for humans to distinguish. Blind spot in the center of your FOV maybe?

We really need to meet up face to face.

I would go with the Leupold fire dot over the Vortex. Same price, better quality on the Leupold side.

http://tradingplacepawn.com/vltor-mur-1a.html Has 1 in stock

http://vtsupply.com/shopping_cart.html
and
http://www.rifleoutfit.com/vltor-mur-1a-modular-upper-receiver-w-bolt-assist-and-shell-deflector.html Seems to have them in stock, not saying they don't.

http://www.nokick.com/Vltor_MUR_Upper_Receiver_w_Shell_Deflector_p/vltr-mur-sd.htm is showing in stock, and cheapest @ $179 and $10 USPS shipping.
 
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SHobbs - Yup, I just caught wind of that Colt dual caliber last week. Now to see if you can just get the lower.

Greg - Gas tubes, another item that is rarely mentioned by brand. 99% of the people usually get a complete upper when doing custom work, they buy the gas tube at the same place they got the gas block or barrel, or swap out a barrel on an upper so they already have a gas tube.

Both of mine came with the Centurion purchase, and I have no idea what "brand" he uses. Heck, I did not even know there was a market for different brand gas tubes. BCM doesn't even list who makes the ones they sell, and I'll wager they are the same that gets installed on their rifles, and at $13.00, I would not be concerned.

Honestly, Brownells just sells pretty much commercial and hobby grade stuff. I saw that they have Colt, but I think you are buying a label for that price. They all might be like the lowers - only 2 or 3 manufacturers and everybody slaps their "label" on them.

BTW ~ The thread I stated elsewhere on the pinned vs clamp on gas block, the responses has been 100% pinned. At the top, cutting down a M4 front sight post to just the gas block (two tapered pins), then a low profile pinned gas block, clamp on and set screw are at the bottom and are a "no other choice" option.

From the guy with the most experience on the matter;
There's absolutely no question that the clamp on gas block are the worst ones to use. The best is a front sight block with two pins. Next would be a low profile gas block pinned. A low pro gas block with loctited set screws AND a dimpled barrel is pretty much just as good as long as you're using an extended rail that covers the gas block. The only time I've ever seen a low pro exposed was the earlier SR15's from KAC. I had two with no issues, but I don't remember if they were pinned or set screwed.

Anyway, my preference is a front sight block that's cut down to fit under an extended rail, which is how my 6921 will be set up once I get the BCM rail.

I can't stress enough to stay away from clamp on gas blocks.

--- to be clear, I owned one that started to leak and I know of a number that have failed. It's the only gas block I've ever personally seen fail.

Because you have a secret hand shake with Brownells http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/handgun-tools/gas-system-tools/ar-15-m16-gas-block-pinning-jig-prod42284.aspx

http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=1398 $59.99

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BRDE-Fixture-for-Drilling-Pinning-Vltor-Gas-Blocks-p/brdejig2.htm $47.95 and split the shipping with the gas tube...and what ever else tickles your fancy.
 
Had this in mind, also! What do you think? Still needs a tapered pin reamer for proper installation.
http://www.blackrivertactical.com/c...ock/#!/~/product/category=6464008&id=17534540
http://www.blackrivertactical.com/pdf/Install-Instructions-MicroPin-Gas-Block.pdf

Thanks for the link to the fixture.
Well, I never considered Brownells as Hobby suppliers,:p, But I do know they are definitely not the cheapest parts dealer.
However, its almost everything under one roof. Midway USA is starting to hound them. Both are pricey!
Yes, that "secret handshake deal" does help, but only sometimes!
Got your PM! Oo.
GregH
 
Not sure why they have both the pin and set screw. So long as the GB bore is tight on the barrel clearance wise to get a good seal, it should work w/o the set screws. You get one shot, and one shot only to drill that hole correctly, and their method is not for the faint of heart. I suppose if one drew a line down the barrel for a reference point where TDC is to get the gas port lined up, you'd be good, so long as the barrel does not walk while you are trying to drill.

Tapered pins are the way to go, but if you get a properly drilled hole, and a close tolerance straight pin you'd be good. Double up with a little staking for piece of mind, though I doubt a straight pin would walk.
 
Sticks,
I will measure the GB Journal and probably get a clamp on block just to see how the barrel performs.
Remember, If that Criterion barrel is not satisfactory, I can send it back and get a full refund from my "Hobby Supplier":-laf
If it shoots well and the clamp on block does develop a leak. I can replace the block with a pinned unit.
The Criterion barrel is dimpled for one set screw.
This is all a learning curve.

GregH
 
Sticks,
Advice received and appreciated.:-{}:cool:
I do understand the fitment issues. The cross pinned block will ideally seat the port of the block tightly over the gas port. I believe the journal should be polished (removal of the Phosphate finish) on the top of the barrel and parallel to the bore in line with the gas port to facilitate the gas seal?


Ideally, pinning the GB is a 99.9% sure way to get that gas seal. Slapping a clamp-on block onto the barrel GB journal is about a 50/50% chance of getting the perfect gas seal. But, If I don't like the barrel, I intend to send it back for a refund! If it is machined, drilled/tapped or altered. I could loose that option.
I am considering that the fitment of a clamp on GB will require a maximum amount of hand fitting and some thread locker. We shall see (I have an idea for a crush type gas seal for the clamp on GB) Monday, I will also call Brownells and specifically ask them about customer machining and pinning the GB on their product and see if that voids their return policy.
The GB and gas tube has not been ordered, as yet, so I am not obligated to any specific course of action.

Presently on hold and waiting for the Ruger refund, to complete my orders.
Its good to discuss these issues for the benefit of anyone else, out there, that wants to "play leggos"!

Yes, I am Stubborn:-laf:p BUT I am listening!Oo. There is a method to my madness, or is it the other way around?:D

GregH
 
Sticks,
Yes, But its a courtesy. They could have required that I accept a replacement upper. That would have been cheaper for them. Far more so than insignificant interest over 2 months plus the full refund price.. An upper receiver "cost to build" is less than 33% of what they will actually pay out.
So I am not complaining. Just "Chomping at the bit"!Oo.

GregH
 
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