stainless clad lug nuts

[brucejohnson]

But then how do you know when you’ve reached that tension value with lubed threads, when the specified torque is expressed with dry threads?
You’ve already stated that you apply more tension with lubed threads by advocating dropping the spec by 10 ft/lbs in your earlier post. How does the average guy establish the increased tension value of lubed threads without taking a WAG?

It's nature, determined through several physical features built into the "just about right" and "close enough" homo sapiens genome; the calibrated finger, the calibrated wrist, the calibrate elbow, as well the calibrated squinty eye with thumb and dangling tongue.

 

[petersonj]

I'd like to see the auto industry start using lock wire retention like used in aerospace. It sure could reduce a lot of issues of things coming loose!

Lock wire retention (safety wire) will stop a fastener from falling off, but has zero effect on things coming loose. If things come loose on our trucks, we can pull off the road and tighten whatever comes loose. The aerospace industry does not have that option.

Proper fastener torque (and torquing technique) stretches the fastener to its proper length providing the intended clamping force. The fastener stretch is what keeps the fastener from coming loose.

- John

 

[Ozymandias]

A new bolt in the factory is somewhat slippery.
Putting a drop of light oil onto the bolts is never wrong here.

There is a certain difference between new, rusty crusty old, soaked in Antiseize, and a drop of oil.

 

[AH64ID]

i dont know why your so hung up on the word torq. with any bolted connection your goal is to put x amount of tension load on the bolt and clamp force between the parts.
whether you get to that x tension and clamp with high friction dry threads or low friction oiled threads makes no difference

It makes a huge difference, so that’s what you don’t understand.

Head studs are a great example of the difference. If you use dry threads and nuts the head gasket is under-torqued and will fail prematurely. Properly lube the nut/waster/stud and you get the correct clamping force even if the nuts are torqued the same dry vs wet. The threads hold all that additional force.

 

[brucejohnson]

with dry threads galling happens. sometimes its a very small amount ,sometimes its alot. this is why you see people complain they sheared the stud off or have to hammer it off with impacts and destroy the cladding.
toyota ,dodge ,ford and every other company has used clad lugs for decades. having owned some of these vehicles for many years ive never had to replace one single stud or lug. probly because i always put something on the threads.
but some guys say its no no LOL.
its all good. im not hear to change anyones mind. we can all keep doing what we do

Galling as inferred has a number of causes. Most of them are friction related and is easily minimized. However, a form of galling (adhesive) is what keeps the lug nut and wheel stud "properly stuck" together.
Let's look at the elements involved.

• The stud. Mounted well as a semi-permanent fixture. It is made of a durable material and designed to stretch a certain predetermined amount in order to maintain adequate clamping force of the wheel to axle.
• The wheel, the item to be clamped in place, is along mostly for a free ride.
• The lug nut. The sacrificial element. It is usually made from a softer metal than the stud in order to accommodate numerous cycles of use. It is the expendable piece of the puzzle.
• Friction. It's what happens when there is motion between different surfaces. It resists movement between surfaces. It creates heat with movement between surfaces.

Now back to the relationship to the galling issue.
When running the lug nut on and off the stud, friction causes heat. A slow roll does not create that much heat. Now put the infamous time and muscle saver, the "rattle gun", or impact wrench into the formula. Most people use the rattle gun at full speed to break the "tight" lug nut loose and get off as quick as possible.
What are the issues with that?
One, is the pretty stainless cap gets the tar beat out of it causing it to bend, warp and generally get mutilated beyond recognition and function.
Two, the faster the lug nut spins on the wheel stud, the more heat is generated. That heat can be more than sufficient to create the weaker lug nut metal to "gall" and deposit chunks along the threaded path.
A slow manual rachet, or even regulated impact wrench will minimize the galling. This is where a stiff bristled brushing of the lug nut and wheel stud threads is beneficial. Unregulated impact wrench use will cause the fine metal particles to "weld" themselves to the threads. Those impact wrenches that run full speed, to the end of the threads when installing the nuts, can imbed (weld) the galled particles into both threaded surfaces causing further damage and a stuck lug nut, as well as potentially over torquing the fastener. It may also create fastener overstresses and heat on the threads to distort them from their original form creating a mismatch of thread pitch. When a torque wrench is used on an already over-torque fastener, how do you know it has been over torqued when the wrench click or pointer reaches the number on the dial.
Lubrication may minimize some of the galling issue, but it does not address the over-stretch of the stud reaching premature failure over time, or the thermal coefficients involved.
Just thoughts for pondering...
The key is to go slow and easy, especially with power tools, cleanliness always and follow the recommended procedures.

 

[sag2]

with dry threads galling happens. sometimes its a very small amount ,sometimes its alot. this is why you see people complain they sheared the stud off or have to hammer it off with impacts and destroy the cladding.
toyota ,dodge ,ford and every other company has used clad lugs for decades. having owned some of these vehicles for many years ive never had to replace one single stud or lug. probly because i always put something on the threads.
but some guys say its no no LOL.
its all good. im not hear to change anyones mind. we can all keep doing what we do

The problem is you are spreading information that is proven to not be correct. As stated multiple times, engineers have spent considerable time figuring out the proper torque for a specific type of fastener. I have never seen any factory information that says you should apply anything to wheel studs. And also as stated, torque isn't torque if you stray from the manufacturers procedure. Yes the applied torque is the same, but reducing the friction increases the elongation of the fastener at the same torque value. Also as stated, different fasteners are specified to be dry, others lubricated. I have attended one of the Snap-On torque training classes and they spend three days (yes, three days to learn how to properly torque fasteners) training you on different procedures as well as going into the metallurgy. Granted the course is designed more for aerospace, manufacturing, and other highly critical areas where proper torque is very important.
I'm not here as well to change anyone's mind, but I have many years of OEM as well as teaching experience, and I have learned that when it comes to specifications, they are very specific for a reason.
Of course you are free to continue doing what you are doing, but you might want to spend some time educating yourself on proper procedures for your own good.

 

[Road Dog]

According to the Permatex Anti-Seize Lubricant Technical Data Sheet the directions include:
6. Reassemble parts using normal torque values

followed by:
WARNING: Not for use on wheel lug nut or stud applications.

I'm not sure why Permatex claims that normal torque values are used even though it's a lubricant.

 

[Ozymandias]

I've just seen a video that proves the -no antiseize- statement. To bolts side by side in an anvil, torque them up in 5lbs increments.
The dry new one stopps turning at 125lbs, the antiseized one keeps turning and snaps at 155lbs where the dry one just clicks the wrench.

Was very enlightening.

I'm changing my habits a little bit to just use WD40 or so on older bolts and stop using antiseized on bolts entirely.

 

[sag2]

In the Snap-On course we measured the stretch of the fastener with a dial indicator. It visually shows how much difference it makes on dry vs. lubricated. It is substantial. Also if you look at any of the high performance builds they also measure stretch of rod bolts to determine proper tightening, and avoid over torque.

 

[Ozymandias]

The Problem is between NEW which has a slight residue of production oil left on it and a rotten dry old rusty bolt which clicks way earlier then wanted. So, have a spray of WD40 on it sure isn't wrong there.
We do not want the bolt/nut to seize and gall on the threads, that would be as wrong as have it soaked with antiseize.

 

[brucejohnson]

The Problem is between NEW which has a slight residue of production oil left on it and a rotten dry old rusty bolt which clicks way earlier then wanted. So, have a spray of WD40 on it sure isn't wrong there.
We do not want the bolt/nut to seize and gall on the threads, that would be as wrong as have it soaked with antiseize.

This is why cleaning with a stiff/wire brush is often recommended for used hardware prior to reassembly on a dry fitting.

 

[Ozymandias]

This is why cleaning with a stiff/wire brush is often recommended for used hardware prior to reassembly on a dry fitting.

That's true, but it is still bone dry afterwards, different from a factory new bolt which isn't exactly "dry".

 

[crazy jerry]

I've just seen a video that proves the -no antiseize- statement. To bolts side by side in an anvil, torque them up in 5lbs increments.
The dry new one stopps turning at 125lbs, the antiseized one keeps turning and snaps at 155lbs where the dry one just clicks the wrench.

Was very enlightening.

I'm changing my habits a little bit to just use WD40 or so on older bolts and stop using antiseized on bolts entirely.

LOL the video showed what i said at the get go. if you apply anything to the threads that reduce friction , the tension load increases compared to dry threads with the same applied torq.
both dry and oiled bolts will click the wrench at 125lbs. the oiled bolt will have a higher tension load however. how much higher depends on what you applied to the threads. motor oil ,antiseize , syrup , butter , bearing grease ,

 

[Ozymandias]

I used oil most of my life because living in 6 month a year road salt area teaches you a lesson or two.
I rarely used antiseize on threads because I didn't saw a benefit from doing so.

I think the use of some common sense at this topic is the best.


Edit; if the bolt is chewing gum grade everything fails.

 

[crazy jerry]

. And also as stated, torque isn't torque if you stray from the manufacturers procedure. Yes the applied torque is the same, but reducing the friction increases the elongation of the fastener at the same torque value.

torq is torq no mater the bolt size , the type of material or what you put on the threads. thats fact.
so long as you dont go beyond the yeild ,the bolt isnt permanantly stretched. regardless if threads were dry or slathered in barbecue sauce.
the torq applied is not what holds the wheel on. its the tension load. which then creates a clamp force between the parts.
if 100lb torq on oiled threads gave the same tension as 125lb dry threads , its not under torqed. the wheel wont fall off. the additional 25lb is wasted over coming the additional friction. simple as that

 

[brucejohnson]

torq is torq no mater the bolt size , the type of material or what you put on the threads. thats fact.
so long as you dont go beyond the yeild ,the bolt isnt permanantly stretched. regardless if threads were dry or slathered in barbecue sauce.
the torq applied is not what holds the wheel on. its the tension load. which then creates a clamp force between the parts.
if 100lb torq on oiled threads gave the same tension as 125lb dry threads , its not under torqed. the wheel wont fall off. the additional 25lb is wasted over coming the additional friction. simple as that

This article from Fastenal has some enlightening details explaining the torque process. The torque applied to a designed dry thread fitting places a "designed/engineered" tension on the bolt/stud. By using any lube, including the manufacturing oils remaining on some hardware, will cause an over tension of the fastener. If the fastener exceeds the "elastic" stage, the ability to stretch and return to original state, due to over torquing, it will enter the plastic stage, permanently stretching and is then unable to return to the original state, causing permanent damage to the bolt and weakening the union. Catastrophic failure can then occur through dynamic loading of the union or significantly reducing the lifespan of the bolt.
I have seen the results of this. Many years ago my wife and I were diving on a country road around a sweeping left curve. A beautiful 55 Chevy was coming from the opposite direction. Just before he passed, his left front tire separated from his car and flew in front of and over the hood our 71 Olds 442 (didn't touch us) but at the same time I heard a CRACK and my wife's terrified scream. Her side of the windshield was shattered, not a small rock like, but the entire right 1/3rd, by one little lug nut, with stud piece in it that was launched with force as it snapped off the Chevy's hub. The other driver made a miraculous recovery behind our car and onto the shoulder behind us. He was returning from having new tires put on and the tire tech used an impact wrench. Evidence was he over torqued the wheel nuts as all 5 studs nubs remaining were stretched and twisted and the last one to give up and let go with high velocity into our windshield. This was a case of an extreme over torque of a dry fitting. By lubing, the same results of an over stretch increases significantly. 125 lb/ft overcoming a dry fitting does not give the same clamping force as a lubricated 125 lb/ft. The lubricated clamping force is significantly larger and stretches the fastener accordingly.
When the dry torque method is stated, that means clean any residual oils, dirt, rust, light galling by chasing the threads, or replacing the damaged fittings for proper torque to be applied. Again, the engineers have accomplished numerous trial and error tests, with an understanding in the various metallurgy characteristic to come up with the safest and best performance procedures. There are important reasons for each fastener type, materials used, and their applications.
The safest practice is following the manufacture's recommendations; and there are a LOT of them. Thank goodness "most" fasteners are/were overengineered. There are a lot of changes being made to manufacturing processes to lighten weight, cut costs, automate assembly, etc., which has affected the robustness of the materials and demanding more precision in tightening of the fasteners. In other words, that 25% to 50% over engineered part from the past now has a mere 10% to 15% margin.
There is a lot involved in the art proper torquing.
Fastenal letterhead

 

[crazy jerry]

This article from Fastenal has some enlightening details explaining the torque process. The torque applied to a designed dry thread fitting places a "designed/engineered" tension on the bolt/stud. By using any lube, including the manufacturing oils remaining on some hardware, will cause an over tension of the fastener. If the fastener exceeds the "elastic" stage, the ability to stretch and return to original state, due to over torquing, it will enter the plastic stage, permanently stretching and is then unable to return to the original state, causing permanent damage to the bolt and weakening the union. Catastrophic failure can then occur through dynamic loading of the union or significantly reducing the lifespan of the bolt.
I have seen the results of this. Many years ago my wife and I were diving on a country road around a sweeping left curve. A beautiful 55 Chevy was coming from the opposite direction. Just before he passed, his left front tire separated from his car and flew in front of and over the hood our 71 Olds 442 (didn't touch us) but at the same time I heard a CRACK and my wife's terrified scream. Her side of the windshield was shattered, not a small rock like, but the entire right 1/3rd, by one little lug nut, with stud piece in it that was launched with force as it snapped off the Chevy's hub. The other driver made a miraculous recovery behind our car and onto the shoulder behind us. He was returning from having new tires put on and the tire tech used an impact wrench. Evidence was he over torqued the wheel nuts as all 5 studs nubs remaining were stretched and twisted and the last one to give up and let go with high velocity into our windshield. This was a case of an extreme over torque of a dry fitting. By lubing, the same results of an over stretch increases significantly. 125 lb/ft overcoming a dry fitting does not give the same clamping force as a lubricated 125 lb/ft. The lubricated clamping force is significantly larger and stretches the fastener accordingly.
When the dry torque method is stated, that means clean any residual oils, dirt, rust, light galling by chasing the threads, or replacing the damaged fittings for proper torque to be applied. Again, the engineers have accomplished numerous trial and error tests, with an understanding in the various metallurgy characteristic to come up with the safest and best performance procedures. There are important reasons for each fastener type, materials used, and their applications.
The safest practice is following the manufacture's recommendations; and there are a LOT of them. Thank goodness "most" fasteners are/were overengineered. There are a lot of changes being made to manufacturing processes to lighten weight, cut costs, automate assembly, etc., which has affected the robustness of the materials and demanding more precision in tightening of the fasteners. In other words, that 25% to 50% over engineered part from the past now has a mere 10% to 15% margin.
There is a lot involved in the art proper torquing.
Fastenal letterhead

your regirgitating what we been arguing about since the beginning.
100lb is 100lb regardless of dry or oiled thread. the difference is the oiled bolt will have higher tension as theres less friction to over come. ( in 5000 less words thats what your article says.)
that doesnt meen the oiled bolt tightened to 100lb will exceed the bolts yeild and permantly stretch it. that depends on what bolt we are talking about.
i suspect that most common fasteners such as wheel studs have a dry torq of around 60% of the yeild. some lubricants may cause a bolt to exceed the yeild unless the applied torq is reduced.

 

[User113]

Hot topic, but an important one.

Tire shops routinely hammer lug nuts on with their high-powered impact drivers like there's no tomorrow because they really, really, really don't want the wheels to fall off and they know you won't be coming back in 100 miles to re-torque those alloy wheels. After over-torquing your wheels their policy often requires that they go around the car and check each nut (or wheel bolt, if it's European) with a properly set torque wrench to verify that it clicks, and they will make a point to so indicate on your invoice. Ya just gotta love lawyers and insurance companies. Of course it will click, they probably just torqued them to 200 ft.lbs. or more!

Nuts and bolts, when properly torqued, act like short, powerful springs, pulling the bolted pieces tightly together with what is often referred to as "Clamp Load." (See Fastenal document, cited above.) There are a lot of factors that affect the Clamp Load that a fastener applies, only one of which is the application of some form of lubricant. Note that using an anaerobic thread sealant also affects the applied Clamp Load! Also consider that your typical anti-seize compound, while providing some modicum of lubrication, is not there to actually provide REAL lubrication for the application of increased Clamp Load like the ARP Ultra-Torque Lube is designed to do; it's only there to protect the threads from rust and galling.

The way I see it (which you may discount as you see fit):

1) If you're the only one putting the lug nuts on; 2) you never use an impact driver on them; and 3) you only ever torque up to somewhere aroung 75% of the specified book value or use the scribed line test (see A.S.T. document linked above), then the resulting Clamp Load while using an anti-seize lubricant will most likely never come anywhere close to what tire shops routinely apply with their high powered pneumatic 1/2-inch Snap-On meat grinders. (They have to use really high powered impact drivers so they can remove the nuts in a timely fashion that they cross-threaded the last time you were there.) Further, the anti-seize protects the joint from rusting itself solid with all the road treatments they spray every time it snows, and makes taking them off on the side of the road in the cold and dark with the factory supplied lug wrench a breeze. This is what I strive to do.

On the other hand, if you often allow tire shops to install, rotate, service, etc. your tires using their power tools to occasionally cross-thread and over-tighten your lug nuts, you're probably better off not using the stuff. However, just be aware that when the tire shop snaps the stud or bolt they're not likely to have a replacement on hand and you may have to wait for it to be special ordered. Oh, and you probably won't be able to use the factory supplied lug wrench to change a flat; hope you have AAA. This is what I try to avoid.

Not expecting to change anyone's mind, just sharing my views on the topic.

 

[crazy jerry]

if i get a chance ill go to the dealer and get a stud and lug. ill mic the length. drill hole in steel plate and tighten it to what the book says (135 ?) with lube. then loosen and mic again. either it will be stretched or it wont

 

[brucejohnson]

your regirgitating what we been arguing about since the beginning.
100lb is 100lb regardless of dry or oiled thread. the difference is the oiled bolt will have higher tension as theres less friction to over come. ( in 5000 less words thats what your article says.)
that doesnt meen the oiled bolt tightened to 100lb will exceed the bolts yeild and permantly stretch it. that depends on what bolt we are talking about.
i suspect that most common fasteners such as wheel studs have a dry torq of around 60% of the yeild. some lubricants may cause a bolt to exceed the yeild unless the applied torq is reduced.

Yes, as long as verifiable adjustments are made. But how do those adjustment affect the dynamics placed on the union, like the designed dry "adhesion galling" of the stud and nut threads? Will the adhesion hold through the various stresses and temperatures involved? A lot of the little things need to be considered before implementing and promoting deviations from tried-and-true engineering results and recommendations.
Here is some more detailed reading to consider which addresses several effects of your statement.
Fastener Design Criteria | Engineering Library
Wheel Attachment Failures in Light-Duty Vehicles | SpringerLink
By lubricating the studs, the type of lubricant can vary the toque significantly depending on what you use, light oil, engine oil, grease, anti-seize and any of its variable components, etc. IF you lubricate it is stated to be only on the threads and not the nut to wheel union. Each variation calls for finding existing specific charts or calculating and testing each variable to determine the requirements for the dynamics involved.

I'm not trying to change anyone's ways but hit or miss and WAG may cause undesired excitement at the least expected, or most inconvenient moment. Nothing more than sourcing references to enhance knowledge in what is involved and the potential consequences which may occur when deviating from the recommended procedures. Most times it is easier to save time and a visit by Murphy by sticking with the engineers' stated procedures. Then there are the curious...

In a critical aerospace element deviation is unacceptable, keeping Murphy at bay as much as possible. It's hard to pull over to the nearest cloud at 36,000 feet to address a critical issue, and your "cargo" doesn't necessarily accept the theory of "any landing you can walk away from is a good landing."

"To err is human, to forgive is not SAC policy"
General Curtis LeMay​