Steering Frustrations (Slight Wandering, Replaced Everything)

[GrantP]

@Ozymandias
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the Carli ball joints are defective. The purpose of my post was to inform the OP that ball joints could be causing the wandering issue. The shop I purchased them from suggested my problem was common and the uppers need to be disassembled and cleaned up even though I grease them regularly. We'll see.

I'm not trying to bash Carli at all, the suspension on my truck with 2.5" Kings is ridiculously good and I have nothing but praise for them. I just have some sticky ball joints that should be easily fixed.

 

[Ozymandias]

Na don't misunderstand me, I'm just try to figure out what is the problem.
I know that carli did some changes in the design of the balljoints ove the years, acording to your mechanics, my uppers let the grease through at a medium pressure with the grease gun, so debris is pushed out.

I'll keep an eye on mine for that.

 

[AEdelheit]

@Ozymandias
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the Carli ball joints are defective. The purpose of my post was to inform the OP that ball joints could be causing the wandering issue. The shop I purchased them from suggested my problem was common and the uppers need to be disassembled and cleaned up even though I grease them regularly. We'll see.

I'm not trying to bash Carli at all, the suspension on my truck with 2.5" Kings is ridiculously good and I have nothing but praise for them. I just have some sticky ball joints that should be easily fixed.

I take my Carli upper BJs apart about every 2-3 years to clean all the old grease out , makes a massive difference. Mine are about 7 years old and pretty they have corrected the issue a while ago.

 

[CBari]

The Ball Joints were replaced with Duralast brand, they don't seem to have gone bad yet.

Mine where moog and just binded and caused wandering as soon I put them in. It was probably 7-8months before I replaced them with OEM and the wandering went away.

 

[petersonj]

I don't think I can tighten the Over Center Adjustment any tighter by screwdriver, the truck still returns to center for the most part after doing a figure 8, but I think I'll go ahead and back the screw off anyway.

I would even back this screw off a little more. That screw is bench adjusted with an in/lb torque wrench on the input shaft and is set to a specific value when the input shaft is passing through the center position from either direction. You should not tighten this screw. However, sometimes the steering adjustment may take awhile to break in and if so, the symptoms would be similar to what you are describing. If the adjustment is a bit sticky, then on straight roads each minor steering correction input from you will leave the tires pointing in that specific direction. Consequently, you wil be correcting the tire direction constantly with the steering wheel .

To take that adjustment out of the picture, I would back the screw off about 1/8 turn from the original setting (keep track of original setting). This would remove any doubt about it sticking in the centered position.

I had a problem with a Borgeson steering shaft that drove me nuts for 25,000 miles. The problem was a tension spring in the slip yoke section. Both pieces of the shaft should slide axially very easily. Mine did not, which resulted in unwanted axial forces on the u-joints between the steering wheel and the steering gear box. This gave the steering wandering symptoms and also loosened the set screws on the steering shaft. I ended up removing the spring. The photo below shows the culprit - this tension spring was inside of the slip yoke assembly and provided for too much tension. After removing the spring, the vehicle began tracking as it should and has continued to do so for the last 60,000 miles.

I did not see anywhere in your posts mentioning tire and wheel size or whether or not the truck is lifted.

Sometimes steering issues are a combination of little things that are wrong and not just a one specific item. Also, I don't think that the little "play" you observed in the steering wheel means much. When the cause of the tracking / wandering problem is found and repaired, you will not even notice that "play".

- John

 

[Matt McIntyre]

good pics. That sure looks like a factory setting. Yes, rotate your cams to the furthest forward notch. Give that a whirl. It may throw your steering wheel off-center a little bit, but you know how to correct that. I used everything Moog on my front end. Talk about robust. I'm thinkin the 'overhead' adjustment you are referring to is the steering box adjuster. It would be a good idea to put the adjustment back to where you found it Chances are it wasn't the issue, and you don't want to prematurely wear it out. It will damage the sector shaft in your box. Another thing to check with your wife's help: Have your wife turn the wheels under power and turn your attention to the synergy steering box brace. Make sure the bearing isn't binding on the shaft. Mine did it. Scared the crap out of me when it happened, lol. I would loosen it, steer from side to side while you're underneath looking for the sweet spot on the bearing/shaft movement, then tighten. I would definitely try to eliminate the play in the ends of the track bar though. Somehow with different bolts Our trucks are tough, but the front ends will find any wiggle room to make our lives difficult. Just eliminate the possibility. Rich

The caster adjustment was too difficult to manage in the driveway, I can't seem to get the bolt to move with the truck on the ground (unless I'm doing something incorrectly, I didn't read much into adjusting the caster before attempting to do so), so I'm taking it to a lift tomorrow morning.

I backed off the adjustment screw quite a bit, it's no longer in a bind, and the steering is much smoother similar to how it felt prior to making the adjustment. Since I neglected to note the screw position before any adjustments at all I can't be sure what the exact original position was.

I double checked the journal bearing on the steering box brace, and it doesn't appear to be binding. I've tested it both front end off the ground without power and on the ground with power. I made sure to follow a logical tightening sequence when I installed it, and ensured that the mount holes on the brace were elongated enough to be able to position it (but not so free that it would slide around everywhere).

I tightened the track bar to spec, 150 ft-lbs according to the manufacturer's manual. Since then I haven't heard any noise, or felt any "popping".

I know! This problem has literally been driving me nuts. I've dumped a lot of money and time into it, on top of stumping a couple mechanics.

 

[Matt McIntyre]

I dont know this brand, does someone have an idea about the quality of them?


Fact is you changed almost everything on the frontend and still have a wander - often it happens that aftermarket balljoints are to tight, they bind from new with the weight of the truck on it.
And a knuckle that bind will exactly show what you have, a tendency to wander the road and as driver you have to guide it all the time instead that it goes straight by itself.

What you can do to examine - lift the truck, then disconnect the steering linkage at the knuckle, on both sides of the truck.
Now you can move the wheel with the knuckle on by hand, and without weight of the truck that has to be absolutely free moving, with a tip of a finger the knuckle should fall to its end stop.

@GrantP
You say you have problem with the Carlis, well, what is the Issue?
These are pure metal without any plastic part, either they bind or they are worn out. There is nothing in between.
I use them myself and I'm pretty happy how they work out, only thing i do for maintenance is grease them on a regular basis with the wheels of the road acording to the manual.

I was worried about the quality of the ball joints, and being susceptible to that problem. Unfortunately, when I replaced the driver's side outer tie rod in January, the knuckle moved pretty freely even with the wheel off. I didn't notice any binding throughout it's range of motion. Granted I didn't disconnect the passenger side since that tie rod had already been replaced. But if adjusting the caster to the forward most position doesn't work, I'll disconnect the linkage from the knuckles and check both sides again.

I'll attach the print out of the latest alignment that I had done.

 

[Matt McIntyre]

I agree with Ozy, there is a good chance that draggy, binding balljoints are the issue. I had Moogs put in my '05, and the truck always needed input to go straight. Very annoying.

What brand did you end up replacing your ball joints with?

 

[brods]

I had a similar issue that started after I replaced ball joints on my 04. I then replaced everything else under the front end and upgraded to the 08 changes with no luck. I finally changed to ball joints back out for the OEM joints and the problem went away. It was so bad wondering that I wouldn't drive it.

The Ball Joints were replaced with Duralast brand, they don't seem to have gone bad yet.

...
Fact is you changed almost everything on the frontend and still have a wander - often it happens that aftermarket balljoints are to tight, they bind from new with the weight of the truck on it.
And a knuckle that bind will exactly show what you have, a tendency to wander the road and as driver you have to guide it all the time instead that it goes straight by itself.

What you can do to examine - lift the truck, then disconnect the steering linkage at the knuckle, on both sides of the truck.
Now you can move the wheel with the knuckle on by hand, and without weight of the truck that has to be absolutely free moving, with a tip of a finger the knuckle should fall to its end stop.

...

I agree with Ozy, there is a good chance that draggy, binding balljoints are the issue. I had Moogs put in my '05, and the truck always needed input to go straight. Very annoying.

Mine where moog and just binded and caused wandering as soon I put them in. It was probably 7-8months before I replaced them with OEM and the wandering went away.

Same problem here. Put in Moogs and it steered like crap. They had to be good since they were brand new, right? So I chased after other parts and alignment settings. The TDR came through and sure enough others had posted up their issues with the Moogs. Changed out the Moogs and problem was solved. I've had XRFs and now Raybestos ball joints since the Moogs. Only the Moogs had binding/steering issues.

Matt, you might want to check who actually makes the Duralast ones for Autozone, if Moog don't think twice and just change them out for another brand. Regardless of who makes them, you'd be wise to follow Ozy's advice and check them before assuming they are good and throwing any more money at it.

 

[Matt McIntyre]

I would even back this screw off a little more. That screw is bench adjusted with an in/lb torque wrench on the input shaft and is set to a specific value when the input shaft is passing through the center position from either direction. You should not tighten this screw. However, sometimes the steering adjustment may take awhile to break in and if so, the symptoms would be similar to what you are describing. If the adjustment is a bit sticky, then on straight roads each minor steering correction input from you will leave the tires pointing in that specific direction. Consequently, you wil be correcting the tire direction constantly with the steering wheel .

To take that adjustment out of the picture, I would back the screw off about 1/8 turn from the original setting (keep track of original setting). This would remove any doubt about it sticking in the centered position.

I had a problem with a Borgeson steering shaft that drove me nuts for 25,000 miles. The problem was a tension spring in the slip yoke section. Both pieces of the shaft should slide axially very easily. Mine did not, which resulted in unwanted axial forces on the u-joints between the steering wheel and the steering gear box. This gave the steering wandering symptoms and also loosened the set screws on the steering shaft. I ended up removing the spring. The photo below shows the culprit - this tension spring was inside of the slip yoke assembly and provided for too much tension. After removing the spring, the vehicle began tracking as it should and has continued to do so for the last 60,000 miles.

View attachment 111653

I did not see anywhere in your posts mentioning tire and wheel size or whether or not the truck is lifted.

Sometimes steering issues are a combination of little things that are wrong and not just a one specific item. Also, I don't think that the little "play" you observed in the steering wheel means much. When the cause of the tracking / wandering problem is found and repaired, you will not even notice that "play".

- John

I completely agree that I should not be adjusting this screw, and that I should stay within the pre-load/mesh load torque totals in the factory manual (and adjusting it on a bench top instead of the truck), BUT that was literally the last recommendation that I received directly from Borgeson, as well as Geno's Garage. (I was emailing two different techs about the issue). I wish I had marked or taken a picture of the original setting, unfortunately I did not. I backed it off quite a bit today, and returned the "feel" of the steering wheel to what it was before making the adjustment I did yesterday.

I will have to look in to removing that spring, I never noticed that there was one when I installed it.

The truck is stock height for a 4WD, tire/wheel size is 285 75 R17, and the tires are effectively brand new (only about 5k miles on them). I'm also not sure if I mentioned, my truck is a 2003 Dodge Ram 2500 5.9L HPCR, Standard Output.

I definitely can't wait until the culprit is identified.

 

[Regcabguy]

Had mine aligned to Thuren's specs,especially 0.0" of toe. It greatly improved the tracking.

 

[TFucili]

What brand did you end up replacing your ball joints with?

Being cheap and stubborn, I just lived with it.

 

[petersonj]

I will have to look in to removing that spring, I never noticed that there was one when I installed it.

I would test it in the truck first. First, loosen the collar set screw (near the center of the shaft) and slide the collar and the flexible boot out of the way. Detach the upper Borgeson coupling and slide off of the lower steering column shaft. While holding onto the coupling, move the shaft axially in and out of the telescopic coupling - it should move with very little resistance. If it moves easily, then all is well. If not, then I recommend taking the shaft apart to find out why.

This "spring" is actually inside the telescopic portion of the assembly (the part that I called a slip yoke earlier). Slide the collar and the flexible boot out of the way to get access to a limit set screw on the telescopic portion of the shaft. Remove that set screw and then the two steering shafts can be separated. The arced spring should fall out. If you re-assemble without the "spring", you will probably find that the telescopic parts now slide easily. Re-assemble in reverse order and make sure the flexible boot and the collar are installed in the same position.

When I did my repair I even put the "spring" in a press to reduce the curve of the arc to reduce tension, but it still offered too much friction when installed. I elected to remove the "spring".

My truck is an '02, but I think the steering shafts have the same design. The telescopic joint is likely to be working fine on your truck, but if it is not then you will be chasing a steering performance problem for a long time. I just don't want what happened to me to happen to anybody else.

- John

 

[Ozymandias]

I was worried about the quality of the ball joints, and being susceptible to that problem. Unfortunately, when I replaced the driver's side outer tie rod in January, the knuckle moved pretty freely even with the wheel off. I didn't notice any binding throughout it's range of motion. Granted I didn't disconnect the passenger side since that tie rod had already been replaced. But if adjusting the caster to the forward most position doesn't work, I'll disconnect the linkage from the knuckles and check both sides again.

I'll attach the print out of the latest alignment that I had done.

According to your print out -

Reduce the caster by one indent on the axle brakets scale* on both sides of the vehicle - that means that the screw in the axle braket moves slightly FORWARD. Vehicle weight MUST be on the wheels to accomplish that.
You need a 2' breaker bar to loosen this nuts, they are very thight.

*do not set them to the same indent on both vehices sides or you'll hve a cross caster situation.

Balljoint sounds good, free moving, but 5.2° caster is way to much.

Do that now, first, before you do anything else at that steering.

 

[Matt McIntyre]

According to your print out -

Reduce the caster by one indent on the axle brakets scale* on both sides of the vehicle - that means that the screw in the axle braket moves slightly FORWARD. Vehicle weight MUST be on the wheels to accomplish that.
You need a 2' breaker bar to loosen this nuts, they are very thight.

*do not set them to the same indent on both vehices sides or you'll hve a cross caster situation.

Balljoint sounds good, free moving, but 5.2° caster is way to much.

Do that now, first, before you do anything else at that steering.

Also, I forgot to mention a more qualitative symptom, when driving I do usually feel a pretty strong pull to the right at the steering wheel. After the last alignment of course.

I'll go ahead and adjust the caster as you recommended first. I do have a stupid question for clarity however, to adjust the passenger side caster forward I need to turn the wrench counterclockwise/to the left (to move the circular notch forward), and on the driver's side I have to turn the wrench clockwise/to the right to move the notch forward?

 

[Ozymandias]

Hi Matt
The notch should go to the rear, the screw itself moves forward against the axle.
to make it easier to tell you'll pull the entire axle slightly to the rear of the vehicle.

You'll see how that works when losing the nut and turn the screw.

One notch back is just the starting point, if you then fell the truck drives better you can do another notch a second time to maybe improve the handling or it might get worse with a second notch.
Its sort of a trial and error game without the electronic alignment equipment.
So we start in small steps with one notch.

 

[Matt McIntyre]

Hi Matt
The notch should go to the rear, the screw itself moves forward against the axle.
to make it easier to tell you'll pull the entire axle slightly to the rear of the vehicle.

You'll see how that works when losing the nut and turn the screw.

One notch back is just the starting point, if you then fell the truck drives better you can do another notch a second time to maybe improve the handling or it might get worse with a second notch.
Its sort of a trial and error game without the electronic alignment equipment.
So we start in small steps with one notch.

So after over an hour of trying to get those bolts to move, I managed to move both of them VERY slightly. The Driver's side I can actually move back much further if I wanted to, but because I could barely get the passenger side to budge I didn't move the driver's side any further. The pictures are a little deceiving because of the poor angles (and that I moved them both slightly back more prior to tightening them both down.), but basically the driver's side moved from being to centered with that forward most circular hole to being centered with the tick mark before it, and the passenger's side moved from being centered at the 12 o'clock position to just behind the tick mark before 12 o'clock.

Even with the minimal adjustment, I took a test drive anyway, and actually found that it tracks a little straighter and I can drive with slightly less correction than before. Unless my perception is skewed because I'm hoping too hard for the problem to be fixed, haha.

Do you have any recommendations for getting these things loose? I bought a 25" breaker bar, and added another 12-18" of pipe on the end of that to try and get the passenger's side to budge. I'm definitely not a weak person, and even before adding the pipe I put a significant bend in my new breaker bar while pushing (fortunately not a permanent bend... at least not a noticeable one). I've also soaked both sides with the rest of a can of WD-40/PB blaster.

 

[Ozymandias]

Looking better.
Do you have a heat gun or a torch to heat the nut(s)?
They can rust in pretty bad because of the flat spot on the screws.
And dont try to turn the screw before the nut is loosened around 3 turns in total.

If you want to do it perfectly and for the future you can pull out the bolt entirely, clean it, grease it, and then assemble it.
Pull out ONE bolt at a time thats perfectly SAFE -- NEVER pull both bolts or your axle will turn away, very dangerous.

According to your two pictures above, i would set drivers side to the 12 o' clock position and passenger side to 2 o' clock.

 

[Superdawg]

Suggestions after you correct the alignment and still have issues. See Thuren's write up on aligning solid front axle trucks.
Dump the Cardone power steering pump. There is no telling without a pressure/flow test if it has the proper PSI and flow rate in GPM. I recommend Mopar, the most recent rendition. Expensive but these flow more than most pumps.
Put in Mopar ball joints.
Look very carefully for play where the shaft meets the Borgeson box since you had some issues there. Maybe switch out the Borgeson box for a Redhead rebuild. Even a rebuild of the smaller box, not the newer, larger box. Seems to work fine.

 

[avvblanc01]

Not sure if you've tried it, but the little plastic shims everyone puts in the upper steering shaft in the cab can also make a big difference in getting rid of the sloppy steering feel. Another culprit can be your box. Just because a part is new doesn't mean it's perfect! I bought a brand new Mopar Big Box from the dealer that was defective and had a massive amount of play. If the alignment doesn't fix your problems check that and the ball joints!