2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission steering tire wear BAD

[Goddard]

short and simple... ... ... . 70,000 miles and just put on my 7th set of steering tires. has been aligned at a dealer ... at a big truck shop... ball joints replaced track bar and all that normal stuff. still wears out steering tires and mainly the right side outside.



all i get is weel its aligned corredtly i dont know what could be causing it! and the typical "how often do you rotate them?"



any ideas would be greatly appr.

 

[dresslered]

What kind of roads to you drive? I've got the same problem (24 tires in 53,000-miles). I have a winding mountain commute and I'm convinced that the weight of the Cummins is tough on the front tires. I've been told to try the Michelin XPS's but I have reservations at $179 x 6.

 

[ntillm01]

I have read/heard the tire complaint from other sources too. I rotate mine every other oil change, and I definitely see a lot of wear on the fronts in short period of time. Other than summer boat-pulling duty, the truck rarely sees a load.



I am also convinced that a heavy load in the front (engine), long wheel base (more turning the steering wheels), wide rear stance (more manuvering=more low speed steering turning) and the duty they do (trailering=more manuvering=more low speed turning) all contibute to the wear. I add the steering wheel turning because I see lots of black circles in the driveway where I've been working the wheel back and forth to back the trailer in.



It may be a pain, but I know I'll have to rotate a lot to evenly wear a six-pack of tires. I'm wondering too, if the depressed center dually wheel adds to the tire scrub when turning too.

 

[MDale]

I have the same problem, it been aligned six times, always dead on, new track bar, steering gear,and tie rod ends. But mine also pulls to the left , and the dealer saids they can do nothing. ?

 

[willyslover]

guys. . the XPS helped me a bunch



original factory Michelin's LTX on this truck I got 25K first set [old rig got 20K same tire]... both rigs changed to Michelin XPS for second set, both rigs got 60K [first rig was wrecked at 60K] and the second rig shown below has another 15/20K left, but just took them off do to needing winter tread depth. . I'll put them back on in spring to finish them off



I live at 4000' in the Sierra Nevada mountains and I drive my rigs like a slot car. . I grind off the rubber not wear off the rubber... ever see a Dually 6 wheel drift, wanta go for a ride LOL



this is a commercial tire with HEAVY DUTY RATINGS, steel side walls and all

 

[dvaughan]

Steering Tire Wear

Try this for some good alignment spec's

First of all let me say this: Damn all of you nice people for

wanting me to stay with aadt

Anyway, I'm not much for having a good short term memory, so bear

with me.

In a previous posting written by ???? (don't remember), they were

complaining about a shimmy in their Ram 4x4 after striking bumps in the

road.

I suggested that the front end alignment has either too little or

too much caster, thus causing a caster shimmy. He did not like my

response and changed his concern from a "shimmy" to a "bounce" (big

difference), and insisted it was the shocks. Maybe it is, I haven't

driven it. He also said the alignment "checked out". Here's the

problem:

Alignment programs (and service manuals I believe), give a wide

acceptable range for front caster on the 4x4 Rams. I believe the range

is 2 degrees to 5 degrees (if that's not correct, it's pretty close).

The problem occurs when the alignment tech (independent or dealer)

tells you that the measurements "checked out fine", just because they

were in this broad range of acceptance.

Caster readings that fall on either end of the scale are subject to

caster shimmy, even though they are "acceptable". I had to align some

30 trucks and attend a 9 hour "Dodge Ram Chassis Dynamics Diagnostics"

training session (fancy name, ehh?), before finding out that 3 degrees

to 4 degrees is the optimal caster setting for 4x4 Rams that eliminates

caster shimmy.

Below I will post what specifications I set Ram trucks to. First

I want to give a little more info on correct Ram alignments so you can

see if you had a job well done,

The eccentrics on the lower control arms ARE NOT for individual

wheel caster adjustments (even though our alignment machine says they

are). The eccentric sleeves in the upper ball joints are for adjusting

individual camber and total cross caster (difference in caster between

two front wheels). This is why replacement eccentrics are positionable

in eight different ways.

Once camber and cross caster are attained with the eccentrics, the

lower control arm eccentrics are then used to swing the caster readings

into specifications. The two eccentrics must be swung in the SAME

direction in EQUAL amounts. If they are not, it will create a setback

condition (one front wheel further forward than the other).

FYI - Comparing between the two front wheels, caster will cause a

pull to the smaller value and camber will cause a pull to the larger

value. A truck set up with caster pulling in one direction and camber

pulling in the other direction, can lead to a wandering truck; even

though it is "in specifications"!!!!!!

If the eccentrics on the lower control arms of your truck are not

pointing the same direction, the alignment was done incorrectly and the

axle was "twisted" or "forced" into position to attain the acceptable

values (seen them from the factory this way, go figure).

A correct alignment will set the truck up with a slight negative

cross caster (truck has slight pull to left) to compensate for right

hand road crown. Camber will be equal side to side slightly on the

negative side. This will help maintain acceptable camber when hauling

heavy loads, as the truck tends to lift in the front when towing.

Camber will then fall slightly positive when towing.

Just because the alignment shop says "it's in specifications", that

does not mean it is set up for proper performance and handling!!!!!!!!!



Specifications (my personal settings for every Ram I align): all specs

below are in degrees.





Left Wheel Right Wheel

-------------- ----------------



Caster 3. 2 3. 5

Cross Caster -. 3



Camber -. 10 -. 10

Cross Camber 0. 0



Toe - standard specs, (maybe a little out if you tow a lot, they will

pull in as the front end lifts up).



Brent

ASE Certified

Gold Certified Chrysler tech





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[dresslered]

Gary-

I'm going to take your advice on the XPS's next time around. Are they really going to put me into a 6 wheel drift?



dvaughan-

Those are the spec's that I used. We even tried tweeking the Toe to zero degrees!

 

[RustyJC]

I'm at 17,000 miles on my 4x2 and the steer tires look like new. Unfortunately, since installing the DD2's and South Bend Con OFE, it looks like drive tires will be the problem on my 3500 dually!



Mine wanders a bit when running empty, but I get enough rear squat pulling our 5th wheel (the truck sits dead level when towing) to increase the caster (and maybe toe-in), and it tracks like it's on rails when we're towing.



Rusty

 

[barbwire]

turning radius

I have noticed that the turning radius on my Dodge trucks is much, much (can't emphasize enough) shorter, than my 1984 Ford hd 3/4 tn. It required 40 acres to turn that thing around. But, the tires seamed to last much longer than the Dodges. Henceforth, I think that we tend to wear our tires more, turning this nice tight radius. And I think we are spoiled. We want the best of both worlds. I also think that with enough great minds working on the project, we may get what we want .

Shocks may also help. If the tire is'nt bouncing on the road quite so much, it should last longer. Just my $. 02

 

[willyslover]

Just another FYI here



The XPS take a few days/miles to lay flat when installed... they feel like they are running on finger tips until that time [a little squirmmmmy]



And the right foot will determin the truck attitude on the 6X drift



after break in they do not lay over like the LTX's do



Rusty. . the biggest issues with the front ends are the 4X4's, if you wern't already aware of that... . no flame intended here

 

[RustyJC]

Originally posted by willyslover

Rusty. . the biggest issues with the front ends are the 4X4's, if you wern't already aware of that... . no flame intended here

I'm extremely aware of that... . one reason I buy 4x2 3500's. If you'll review the thread, however, I think you'll find another 4x2 poster talking about premature front tire wear. I'm just saying that I haven't experienced it, OK?



Rusty

 

[stacerbob]

dvaughn

AMEN!

 

[Matt42]

Re: Steering Tire Wear

Originally posted by dvaughan

Try this for some good alignment spec's

-snip-

I suggested that the front end alignment has either too little or

too much caster, thus causing a caster shimmy.



-snip-

A correct alignment will set the truck up with a slight negative

cross caster (truck has slight pull to left) to compensate for right

hand road crown. Camber will be equal side to side slightly on the

negative side. This will help maintain acceptable camber when hauling

heavy loads, as the truck tends to lift in the front when towing.

-snip-



Specifications (my personal settings for every Ram I align): all specs

below are in degrees.





Left Wheel Right Wheel

-------------- ----------------



Caster 3. 2 3. 5

Cross Caster -. 3



Camber -. 10 -. 10

Cross Camber 0. 0



Toe - standard specs, (maybe a little out if you tow a lot, they will

pull in as the front end lifts up).



Brent

ASE Certified

Gold Certified Chrysler tech





Brent: Stupid question, but I'll ask anyway. Are these specs suitable for a 4x4 2500? I ask because I thought that 4x4 camber can't be adjusted short of replacing lower steering knuckles. If the specs work for a 4x4, omitting the camber, I'll specify them on my next alignment. Mine's OK, though, and a gentle drive at any speed. (knocking on wood... )



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[Goddard]

sorry for the delay in responding. been pretty busy past days. i am printing out these specs and plan to take them to the alignment shop and say here DO IT THIS WAY! i had been thinking about michelins anyway and will try a set next time.



thanks all!

 

[dresslered]

Make sure that the alignment shop will agree to it in advance. I've heard of some shops wanting to default to the DC specs instead since they are less work.

 

[BudW]

DVAUGHAN,

What is your recommended alignment specs for a 2x4 2500?



Bud

 

[Andy Redmond]

These specs work well with all 2500 and 3500 trucks.



Many 94-96 4x4's will have problems achieving "brent's caster specs" with the oe caster adjusters. Mopar, Ingall's, Astro or other sources are necessary to replace the upper caster sleeve/bushing to achieve "the perfect specs. "



Your ram should wear tires well if these specs are used, inflation is proper and no bent wheels, tweaked frame, worn out shocks etc.



Good luck, Andy

 

[lil red cummins]

hey goddard,



so far i dont think anyone answered your question directly. that is - why is my right front tire wearing out on the outside. this is a relatively easy problem to fix. you have too much tow in. and yes this assumes that tires, brakes, wheel bearings, shocks and ball joints or king pins are in good working order.



ok, for all those saying yah right, here is the simple truth your front end shop doesnt want you to know. there are 3 settings for front end alignment. tow-in, caster & camber. these 3 settings are somewhat indendent in that if any one of them is incorrectly adjusted, it tends NOT to affect the others. But this is not an absolute.



tow- in affects tire wear primarily but can also be responsible for the truck "wandering" across the road. it is simply adjusted by adjusting the tie-rod joints. some vehicles have one, some have two and if you have two, adjusting the correct one can be used to bring your steering wheel back to center.



caster is the adjustment made to correct for a continuous pull in one direction or the get the steering wheel to come back to center by itself after turning a corner. this adjustment is easier on leaf spring front ends since you can just put a caster shim between the axle and spring. if it is a coil spring front, you may be lucky enough to have an eccentric bushing in the ball joint mount (4wd). however adjusting this can also affect camber. pull on 4wd vehicles with solid axles is hard to correct because it would require twisting the axle. it generally doesnt happen.



camber is a visual thing. if you stand in front of your truck and look at the front tires relative to the backs, the top of the tire may be tipped out or in relative to the bottom. unless the inclination is greater than 2 degrees in either direction, it is not critical. this adjustment affects handling around corners and can effect how you vehicle handles on heavily crowned roads.



What does all this mean?



in my experience of 35 years of performing front end alignments, FORGET the factory specs. if you have had a wreck or replaced components, they are good for a starting point. however when your right tire is wearing on the outside, you need to tow "out" the front end.



tow in can be easily measured with a measuring tape, (2) - 8" long pieces of 2 x 4 and a buddy. with your vehicle sitting on a flat surface and the wheels perfectly straight, place the 2 x 4's against the tread in front of both tires. stretch the tape between the two tires, making SURE that you both use the same tread. it doesnt have to be in the center, just make sure you both use the same one. (like 2 from the outside). after noting the distance (i. e. 65-5/8), move the block to behind the tires and measure on the exact same tread in the back. the rear length should be nearly the same and generally no more than 1/16" greater than the front. again this is a reference, but based on YOUR tire wear, i would adjust the toe in till both reading were the same. that means your tow will be at "zero". there is nothing wrong with this if it keeps your tires from wearing.



this by no means is a complete explanation, but it will give you a basic knowledge of alignment.



by the way, i have NEVER ever paid for a front end alignment, nor have i ever had a vehicle on an alignment rack. i DO however own a homemade tow-in gage which takes the place of your ruler and block setup. i have used the same gage on anything from a Model T Ford to a tandem road tractor. the key is to checking the wear of your front tires about every 4000 miles and make adjustments immediately if you see wear.



sorry this was such a long post, but i couldnt make it shorter without missing some key elements. again, there is a lot more to this than the stuff presented here.



jim

 

[stacerbob]

Yeah, tons more!



If toe in is the cause of the wear on this particular truck why is it just wearing on ONE side???



What if the left front is 0 camber and the right front is 1deg+ and it HAS a 1/16th" toe in, is the toe in the cause?

 

[Andy Redmond]

Bob, I think its the camber and maybe a little toe, again referring to the specs previously stated your left is close, out a tenth, the right is a degree too positive.



I agree toe can be set with a chain, tape etc. , but the total package of proper geometry can usually only be attained with the expensive drive on racks.



If the equipment they have weren't necessary, we could all get our tape, board and a set of camber/caster bubble gauges from any import parts site for less than $500 and open an alignment shop.



Sure there is more than one way to skin the proverbal cat, but usually the high tech equipment will allow for close tolerances.



If the techs that operate the equipment cared a little more sometimes, the equipment's abilites could make for perfect alignment. Sometimes a good alignment tech will know what end of the range works well for a particular vehicle. I think many of us like "Brent's specs" for this reason. The alignment shop I recommend has these on file. . they liked the difference after. . so very much.



My 02. worth.