Stubling on accel & high temp #6 injector

[JimJeblee]

Hi, I usually find all the info I need just by reading posts here, but this time I could use a little specific help, and thanks for all the great info here.

2006 5.9 4x4 Larime Quad cab auto, stock, 316,000mi, 41,000 miles on acme reman injectors (yea, probably not a great choice, was slammed @ work & was what local shop used.)
Idles with just a hint of roughness, stubles on accel in mid teens rpm, rail pressue at idle (5700ish) & 1700-2000rpm (just me & truck, 50% throttle 17-19,000ish) look ok, i think.
Changed filter, fleetgaurd dodge stock system.
No codes w/ small $400 box.
Happened off & on for two weeks, did a 1/3 tank w/ 2 sea foam, Tiny bit better while on it, next full tank w/ some power service in it, it was back to problems.
I have been driving gently for a while because my 48re is getting pretty sloppy, maybe that contributed to the problem. saving up to do transmission work.
Put a new FCA in, maybe tiny better idle? no real change.
Drove about 10miles for check out one day & used temp gun on manifold. 1-5 were at 250 +/- 10degF, #6 was at 335, this scared me into not driving truck for now.
Oil & coolant look ok.
the only 2 diesel shops that I have any trust in at all are almost an hour away & as I now have 2 CRs I want to get more into fixing them myself (I have rebuilt gas engines & done engine swaps in the past, 43 vehicles so far. I drive more than 50Kmi/yr).
Next weekend I am going to ohm the solenoids, inspect the batteries and connections (2 years old) closer, check the intercooler hoses & run the temperature test again.
In this case would a contribution test be worth while?
I thought about filling the filter w/ sea foam run 20-30secs & then let the injectors 'soak' a day or two, but I am nervious due to the hot manifold runner.
I am tempted to pull the injectors & send them out, any suggestions how/if the injector cavities should be sealed while I wait?
Is it really worth trying to find some one closer that has some clue on these CRs?
I can let it sit a bit as I try to track down the issue.

Thanks for all your help!
Jim

 

[p-Bar]

Sounds like #6 dribbling diesel . I think you screwed yourself with those remans. Call around and see what these guys have in the way of diagnostic equipment . Tell whats up and see what they say . don't tow it anywhere till you negotiate your deal.good luck. Oh ya good troubleshoot on using the temp gun

 

[JimJeblee]

Thanks, I have a recommendation for a local medium duty truck shop. I did not talk to them yet, do not know if they work on these Rams yet. I would like to take the home repair as far a possible because I have two of these 3rd gens now and I would like to eventually put a 4bta or ISB 3.9 into a short bed std cab of some type for a put around truck. But I do not have time for that right now and the 06 will need front end work and a transmission rebuild soon, I do not have the cash to farm that all out so i am planning on doing most of the work myself, I hope

SO if I do have a leaking injector, does performing a cylinder contribution test tell me anything?

Thanks for all your help!
Jim

 

[cerberusiam]

The contribution test along with a kill test can point you to bad injector(s), but, sounds like you already have a good idea where the issue is. If you have the tools to do the contrib test it is good experience to see what it looks like.

Don't even bother with testing, just get a new set of injectors. Trying to test acme remans is a waste of time, you will chase ghosts for ever.

 

[JimJeblee]

Thanks for the suggestions. I put a fresh tank of fuel in it and I am going to change the oil, test it and change the fuel filter (only has about 2Kmi on it but you never know).
If I do pull the injectors, would a compression test tell me much? Note that it idles fair now. Does a bore scope fit to take a look at the pistons? I would hate to have to pull the head, but I would not like to buy new injectors (wow are they pricey!) & then find my motor is on the way out. Are there any negatives to swapping injectors on the bench & then re-installing the head??

Just trying to work out a plan, thanks for your help.
Jim

 

[p-Bar]

Write off the injectors. Call T&C diesel in Minnesota talk to Todd he has factory Bosch rebuilds . That will be the route I am going to go. Guess you could do a compression check .

 

[cerberusiam]

If you don't buy NEW injectors you are just wasting the $$. The standard run of Bosch remans are barely adequate for usage, still can have issues that will require replacement and they are just not a quality unit. To get the high quality remans will cost almost the same as new so it is not really worth it, buy new. The BMS marine injectors can frequently be had for about the same price as remans, dollar for dollar they cannot be beat. They are balanced at least as well as stock injectors and usually better. The only way you will get better is step up to the high quality builds like BBI and a couple others.

 

[p-Bar]

If you don't buy NEW injectors you are just wasting the $$. The standard run of Bosch remans are barely adequate for usage, still can have issues that will require replacement and they are just not a quality unit. To get the high quality remans will cost almost the same as new so it is not really worth it, buy new. The BMS marine injectors can frequently be had for about the same price as remans, dollar for dollar they cannot be beat. They are balanced at least as well as stock injectors and usually better. The only way you will get better is step up to the high quality builds like BBI and a couple others.

Cerb let's besure we get the wording correct. I was talking about genuine Bosch remans not just Joe the ragman's remans . Genuine Bosch remans have had very low failure rate ask Todd at T&C diesel he sells tons of them.

 

[cerberusiam]

I too am referring to standard genuine Bosh remans you can buy at any authorized Bosch dealer for about $350 per. They are not that great, have had to replace several for different maladies including fuel knock under certain conditions and just crappy contribution performance. The high quality remans that are so very close to new OE injector prices I do not have experience with, possibly that is what Todd is referring too. As I said, why pay upwards of $400 for a reman when NEW is around $410-420. I do know that experience with several sets of the standard reman has not been impressive.

Understand I have also had a couple of the BMS's replaced under warranty because they did not perform up to the standard I thought they should. Testing showed that they were indeed NOT performing as close to spec as others. Also found the existing set had several that were not as close as they could be and had them adjusted to balance. They never showed the physical problems but did have some drifting contribution percentages. Testing showed that they tended not to flow as well as others across a pressure and volume range. Once they were corrected the contribution tests looked much more uniform.

I do not doubt that resellers like Todd do see a very small failure rate. I also doubt the ability of about 95% of the drivers of said vehicles to identify by sound and performance what constitutes a "bad" injector. I have a standard that constitutes what a "good" injector is, to others if it starts and runs down the road it is "good". The number of idling Cummins truck I have walked past at sale barns, fuel pumps, etc, that just make me CRINGE listening to them is huge, the definitions of good, bad, and the level of annoyance one can take is so relative that statements about failure rates are inherently skewed.

If one is perfectly happy paying for and driving with a substandard products then there is no conflict. However, if one wishes the $ spent to meet at least the minimum of OE spec which is fairly loose anyway, then it is obvious from experience that the claims of low failure rate of said remans is highly questionable. In the last 3 years, on 2 trucks, of 12 genuine Bosch remans we returned 3 for inadequate performance. When those injectors were replaced with quality precision parts the differences were dramatic even to less than knowledgeable.

I have been accused of having to high of standards for replacement parts, so be it. That Cummins engine under the hood is an expensive precision piece of machinery, failure to hold parts to a high standard can quite easily result in an expensive boat anchor under the hood. The Bosch shop I deal with asked once why I though the injector was bad so I explained what testing found, they replaced it and all subsequent ones without question even though technically 1 was out of the year warranty. Chatting with a mechanic there about the issues we ran into and the test results just confirmed that it is a lot more prevalent than all the statistics presented. What was really funny was the parts manager and shop manager hovering in the back ground listening to us.

 

[p-Bar]

Thanks for the great explanation. I would like BBI but would want stock flow rates as I am in Commiefornia and have to do smog. Don't know why they don't.

 

[cerberusiam]

I would like BBI but would want stock flow rates as I am in Commiefornia and have to do smog. Don't know why they don't.

As a guess, it probably had something to do with non-compete agreements as the 2 principal people were Bosch employees. Can't have employees creating products that directly compete with the employer in the same market space.

If the reports are correct, that may no longer be a problem and you may likely get your wish sooner rather than later. If I understand the post the Brian made they are no longer Bosch employees and are now concentrating fully on BBI products. A stock or at least an optimized close to stock flowing injector may be something they are now capable of delivering if demand warrants it.

I would contact Brian for the full story and make your request for a lower performance injector for the emissions challenged areas.

 

[JimJeblee]

I am waiting on fuel filters & oil test kit right now. I did get to talk to a mechanic that works on these engines, mostly for industrial applications (specilized trucks). They actually do very little testing, they run multi stage fuel filters (water, 10mic & then to 2mic). On an injection issue, they changes filters, flush a gal out, put in an cleaner (PS or FPPT), if the problem does not go away & the engine has logged a fair number of hours since injectors (not sure what that # is) then they replace CP3, connect tubes and injectors w/ new. He said they do not do this often & it puts the engine back into service for a long time. I think I have shot myself in the foot w/ poor quality injectors & insufficient filtration. At the time I badly needed my truck back on the road in one day. Now I just have to determine if I can afford to continue with this truck, it also will need a trany & front end work very soon. Just finished paying kids college & one wants to go back....

Thanks for all the info, I will update when i know more.
Jim

 

[p-Bar]

As a guess, it probably had something to do with non-compete agreements as the 2 principal people were Bosch employees. Can't have employees creating products that directly compete with the employer in the same market space.

If the reports are correct, that may no longer be a problem and you may likely get your wish sooner rather than later. If I understand the post the Brian made they are no longer Bosch employees and are now concentrating fully on BBI products. A stock or at least an optimized close to stock flowing injector may be something they are now capable of delivering if demand warrants it.
I would contact Brian for the full story and make your request for a lower performance injector for the emissions challenged areas.

Thanks Cerb I will do that. I think they are missing a larger share of the market by not offering a stock version

 

[p-Bar]

Jim yes the 10 mic to 2 mic is a good setup for the fuel filtration . Is this your first set of injectors? If so you have done very well. Tell your kid to go get a job and finish education via night school, online with his/her money. None of us put money away for things like the injectors which is on of the high price items on these trucks so it is important to choose well. For a stop gap you could just put one new injector in the #6 hole. Not the best way but could keep you on the road.

 

[JimJeblee]

Thanks p-Bar, the 06 had after market rebuilt injectors at about 270,000mi. I tried to always use fleetgaurd 7mic filters in the stock loc. When I get more filters I am going to change again & run all of the easy cheap tests, check the exhaust temps again. I do not think my current tester box can do a contrib or cyl kill, but I will look. I may do a temp new injector & tube just in 6 (assuming my restest showes the same), mostly just to see if the rest of the engine is in good shape. If so then I will plan on the other 5 in the next few months.

So, the #6 looks really tight, can you get a dial type torq wrench in there? I don't like clickers in the lowwer ranges (maybe I need a better qual clicker) I have a beam inch type but it does not go high enough for the connnector tubes. I had thought about a 3" body lift for other reasons, does this help with CR fuel maint?? Just kicking around Ideas.

Thanks
Jim

 

[JimJeblee]

Oh and I am planning on a filter system upgrade soon on the '03 and if the '06 still looks viable then it will get a filter upgrade also. I need to get a good handle on the '06 condition. I would like to keep it for quite a while longer (why I bought a diesel). With two CR 5.9s I need to figure out these fuel systems to afford to keep running them, the 2000 mech and the Nav 6.9 were much easier. Both kids are 2x smarter than me & 10x better in their youth, must get it from their mother One worked out a paid work/study program, looks like the other one will get reimbursted and may/maynot need a little starter money. The '06 could need 6-10k$ so if I continue I need to spread it out. Wife & myself are trying to avoid using the '03 as a work/commute truck because right now it look brand new & is a great travel/weekend truck.
Thanks

 

[cerberusiam]

A dial wrench on number six is almost impossible to see the dial. You can get a deep socket thru the hole in the crash bracket and a wrench on it from the drive side by working the wrench thru the harness, it is tight but doable. Need a clicker though as you are up against harness and components. A crows foot wrench is easier to get on and get wrench too, a beam type will work there, just to have know what the crows foot compensation is.

Body lifts open up all sorts of other problems that are not worth the effort for the times you need to access the cross over tubes.

 

[p-Bar]

Cerb I know someone posted a nice pic gallery with explanation on changing them out. I also messaged Brian at smarty waiting for response on BBI's. Jim good luck your on the right track.

 

[JimJeblee]

Cerb, I took a closer look very late last night & discovered that I have some insulation falling down on the back of the engine. #6 still looks pretty tight, but not a bad as I thought. I am going to need a better clicker type Torq wrench. I was considering a trans swap to a HD manual which was the main reason for the possible body lift, it looks too time consuming so most likely will not happen. Not to get off topic but I was just kicking around that lift idea, I agree it's defiantly not worth it just for injector work. I should be spending time & money on the very best parts I can get.
Still waiting on filters & misc. Will let everybody know what I find. I think I have an attack plan now, thanks.
Jim

 

[Freebore]

I did mine last June and started by glueing the insulation where it belongs using some 3M or Loctite spray adhesive - it hasn't dropped on the valve cover since. As far as the tools, I relied on a 3/8 clicker with some assorted crows foot tools and extensions. I also used a beam type torque wrench for the injector wire nuts which you really don't want to over tighten. I found a small 6" crows foot to pop out the injectors and the rest was pretty straight forward.