Steve St.Laurent
Staff Alumni
Note where I added an edit:
My mistake.
My mistake.
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Suncoast/ATS/DTT
- Thread starter SJRsCUMMINS
- Start Date
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Steve, you're doing a fine job and I want to thank you, I'm sure others do too. I'm pleased that you have not removed or locked the topic completely.
Many of us, such as Hummin Cummins and jimk, are sitting on the fence and want to know more. We're capable of scrolling through the "sis boom bah" rantings by the cheerleading squads but it would be nice if we didn't have to. Like Joe Friday said, "Just the facts".
I ran Amsoil for 40000 miles and the the transmission was in mint condition when Bill K. rebuilt it last April. I will say that there is definately a difference between Amsoil and the Redline High Temp ATF that I recently switched too. Shifts are much firmer with the Redline. However the Redline is a Dexron III fluid where the Amsoil has the friction modifiers that give it ATF +3 and Mercon V ratings. 
I hope I don't bore any one for asking to many questions, as I am only interested in the technical part of this discussion. I could have asked each builder but that would not add anything to this forum.
The key parts to making the converter hold in lock up is, only guessing here, is oil pressure and rpms, surface area of clutches and mating surfaces. coefficient of friction the materials used to make the clutch or clutches used, radius of the clutch and probable more. The difference between fluid coupling and lock up could impacts the life also, a smaller drop in rpms would seem to help the clutch live. How strong the area in the converter where the clutch engages. Warped or wavy would make clutch engagement very dismal. The ability of the frount pump to charge the convertor in fluid coupling. It would be nice to be able to have some way to measure performance of each converter in fluid coupling. Torque applied and torque deliver at each 100 rpms over idle. At what rpms can the converter be locked up and hold.
Any information would be appreciated jimk
Last edited:
LOL. I had it "rebuilt" a week after I installed the DD3's and the Drag Comp. The stock transmission and those mods together are almost a joke. I could floor it and it would almost imediatle hit 3200 and stay there even though you were still accellerating. Lets just say it was "Preventative Maintenance"Originally posted by illflem
Chip, how come it needed rebuilding then?
To try to steer things back onto the road of a technical discussion here, can anyone tell me what effect Amsoil will have in any of these trannies? I was told that it's so slick the clutches won't hold!
Dan, I'm not a huge Amsoil fan but my transmission builder is and this is were we do agree. The clutches won't slip because of Amsoil, they will slip because of too much power, not enough apply pressure, or you have the pressure but the internal leaks are too big. Example, servo leaking... . (difference in line pressure and front servo) causing 3rd gear apply pressure loss then you get slippage. Remember my 250 hp transmission from Feb 02' it now has almost 500 hp going through it will only a base line pressure change, but I do pressure test on it occasionally to make sure things are fine (internal leaks).
Jim
Dan, I'm not a huge Amsoil fan but my transmission builder is and this is were we do agree. The clutches won't slip because of Amsoil, they will slip because of too much power, not enough apply pressure, or you have the pressure but the internal leaks are too big. Example, servo leaking... . (difference in line pressure and front servo) causing 3rd gear apply pressure loss then you get slippage. Remember my 250 hp transmission from Feb 02' it now has almost 500 hp going through it will only a base line pressure change, but I do pressure test on it occasionally to make sure things are fine (internal leaks).
Jim
Steve St. Laurent,
I never thought I'd be replying to a moderator like this. You wrote this a few posts up.
Which seems like a valid question to me after Chris stated:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
With the higher base and top end pressures DTT runs,along with the new 2nd servo,and the many other things that go into a DTT trans to reduce leakage,guess who's third gear (and entire trans) is stronger?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Did anyone else notice that I never said any of that? Steve took a quote from Snow Man on the previous page and put my name on it to justify why Stakeman has the right to attack me and call me a troll.
Steve your entire post was one big error after another. It seems logical to me to delete it and all associated posts from this thread, but then again, I'm not the moderator.
-Chris
I never thought I'd be replying to a moderator like this. You wrote this a few posts up.
Which seems like a valid question to me after Chris stated:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
With the higher base and top end pressures DTT runs,along with the new 2nd servo,and the many other things that go into a DTT trans to reduce leakage,guess who's third gear (and entire trans) is stronger?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Did anyone else notice that I never said any of that? Steve took a quote from Snow Man on the previous page and put my name on it to justify why Stakeman has the right to attack me and call me a troll.
Steve your entire post was one big error after another. It seems logical to me to delete it and all associated posts from this thread, but then again, I'm not the moderator.
-Chris
Steve St.Laurent
Staff Alumni
Yes Chris, I made a mistake and I said so above. I forgot about deleting Stakeman's post - but I DID delete it! And yes, the original quote was from Snowman, I went back through the posts and the closest thing I could find to Stake calling someone a troll was that post. In no way shape or form did I "justify why Stakeman has the right to attack me and call me a troll. " I deleted that post as I have been doing with the personal attacks on this thread. Keeping track of all of this is not the easiest thing to do. If people would take a deep breath and think about what they are typing and use a little tact I wouldn't have to deal with all of this. It's just a transmission guys.
I'm not going to delete my post because if I did I would be accused of covering up my mistakes. I have no problem at all admitting that I make mistakes. There is still a point to be made in that post if you'll read the whole post and not just look for the mistakes.
I'm not going to delete my post because if I did I would be accused of covering up my mistakes. I have no problem at all admitting that I make mistakes. There is still a point to be made in that post if you'll read the whole post and not just look for the mistakes.
Re: Jim
You are probably right. When I backed up my truck to get under one of my trailers I was thinking ma by a auto up grade is is in the budget. Every time the tps switch acts up I realize have no patience for that kind of thing. jimk
Originally posted by GLASMITHS
The STICK-SHIFT Angel
You are probably right. When I backed up my truck to get under one of my trailers I was thinking ma by a auto up grade is is in the budget. Every time the tps switch acts up I realize have no patience for that kind of thing. jimk
You might think this is just a bunch of Donkey "mud", but I had Amsoil ATF + 4 in my truck and was told that it was too slippery, too many friction modifiers. So... ... ... ..... 150 bucks of Amsoil ATF +4 down in the ditch, and another 150 bucks of Amsoil universal into my old buggy. 
Take it for what it is worth. DTT told me this.
One more thing... ... make sure you have a qualified installer do your work. I had mine done at our local transmission shop in town and am still suffering the effects.
Take it for what it is worth. DTT told me this. One more thing... ... make sure you have a qualified installer do your work. I had mine done at our local transmission shop in town and am still suffering the effects.
I dont't want to get into an oil war but Amsoil ATF +4 was only on the shelf for a very brief time but you want to check this with an Amsoil dealer. (Sledpuller ) may be able to give you some insight on this. A lot of our customers run the Amzoil but as Chipstien said it is the Amsoil universal ATF.
As the hp levels increase on these Dodges, the Dodge specs no longer become valid as Dodge never intended for these transmissions to make this kind of power. In our Dodge i run GM Dexron 11 and we use it as a break in oil for the jobs we do in our shop. Bill uses a break in oil simply to get rid of what he refers to as peach fuzz from the new clutch plates . No sense wasting good synthethic oil as a breakin oil.
As the hp levels increase on these Dodges, the Dodge specs no longer become valid as Dodge never intended for these transmissions to make this kind of power. In our Dodge i run GM Dexron 11 and we use it as a break in oil for the jobs we do in our shop. Bill uses a break in oil simply to get rid of what he refers to as peach fuzz from the new clutch plates . No sense wasting good synthethic oil as a breakin oil.
I told you guys this would take awhile and i cant thank you guys enough for the transmission school seminar this weekend. So this is how it went.
As Bill explained to me one of the most challenging parts of building the Chrysler transmission is that the Cummins makes a tremendous amount of torque at the low rpms and the Chrysler transmission is designed for higher rpms. At DTT as we have mentioned in the past pressure testing is not something we do for fun it is more like a religion.
Lets start with the TC, the oem factory system has a tremendous amount of leakage, if guys started pressure testing their tc’s they would find out exactly what we are talking about.
A 10 % leakage is considered excellent. 10-20 % leakage is considered good. 20-30 % is considered average.
For us when we pressure test the oem systems and our competitors 30 % and above is quite normal. One of the best-kept secrets by DTT is that we have changed the lockup clutch system. People are always amazed that how we can handle 800+ hp with a single disc clutch. According to Bill it’s not such a great feat at all.
Pascal’s law is:
(P. S. I. )Pressure = FORCE(LBS )
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ AREA ( SQ. IN. )
According to PASCAL’s law the lockup clutch system is over 70% stronger than 3rd gear. The problem with the oem factory system is that it has so much leakage.
If you want to pressure test your own lock up system it is quite simple.
Cooler line pressure vs overdrive pressure will give you your lockup clutch pressure within 4-5 %. That is counting on the fact that your od circuit is sound. ( not excessive leakage in od. ). To do a more accurate test you would have to modify the valve body and take readings from the switch valve.
So if you are running 100 psi at 2000 rpms in od locked up you should be also running 100 psi in the cooler lines during lockup. OEM + and – specs are the major reason for a lot of the reason for these transmission and tc failures and also why you see a lot of aftermarket transmission failures. .
The quality of the work you get done is not only dependent on the parts but the quality of the technician doing the work. If he does not pay attention to the specs in simple terms you are playing roulette.
A lot of people think you need to add a front cover to prevent your tc from ballooning.
Advocates of that mentality have obviously not pressure tested a tc in the Dodge Cummins Diesel. If they had they would know that the Chrysler converters are not even remotely close to ballooning.
In our testing DTT has run the pressures as high as 200 psi and did not balloon the tc .
Obviously Chrysler feels the same way as in the 48RE’s they have changed the pump assembly to add more pump volume by 20 %.
Another area that DTT has spent a great amount of time and resources is on the transmission case itself, since 1993 the quality of the machine work on the Chrysler transmission cases have continued to deteriorate. To try and compensate for this Bill spends between 10-20 minutes prepping the transmission cases where the vb bolts on to the transmission case. Again this is where the technician working on the truck comes into play.
If he doesn’t pay attention to these smaller details you could end up with more problems than you started with. This is the main reason we developed the valve body to transmission case gaskets. Transmission cases will still need prepping even with the vb gaskets but the gaskets show an increase of 5 – 6 psi on a good prepped case.
3rd gear is the weakest link in this transmission according to Pascal’s law. At DTT we changed the factory piston for 3rd gear to a billet piston to get rid of any leakage in that area, we have changed the sealing rings that feed the 3rd gear clutch pack, we have changed the front servo, now according to some people snap valves will help protect you from a 2-3 bind up. According to Bill they must be smoking some pretty good cigs if they are seeing snap valves on the Chrysler transmission as Chrysler does not use snap valves for the 2-3-shift valve on the 272,518, 47RH, or the 47 RE transmissions.
If you guys look in your Chrysler manual you will notice that the 2nd gear apply pressure is not exhausted when the transmission shifts into 3rd. Its 3rd gear pressure build up that releases the 2nd gear band it takes 28% less pressure from 3rd gear to actually release 2nd gear. So the 2nd gear band does not release until there is a 28% difference in the force between release and apply . Again this is not rocket science according to Bill but you know for you and I we have to really concentrate. Again this is Pascal’s law at work. The release side of 2nd gear servo has a greater surface area than the apply side of 2nd gear. But the pressure is never released on the apply side. I used my Chrysler 2000 service manual as a reference , Section 21 page 465 , compare that with Section 21 Page 466 .
You will find that this is why Chrysler does not like to have a 3-2 downshift and when you are slowing down the Chrysler transmission tends to go from 3rd -1st. Its not taht the technology does not exist to produce the 3-2 downshift but you must modify the 3rd gear release system in order to facilitate the 3-2 dowhshift. When we developed the smart controller we were forced to modify the 3rd gear release system.
If guys pressure tested the circuitry they would know this that Chrysler tends to vent 3rd and 2nd at the same time producing a 3-1 shift during the down shift. As a matter of fact Chrysler puts in a kick down limit valve that prevents a 3-2 downshift at higher speeds.
The technicians that know this circuitry will actually be able to build a transmission that will eliminate or reduce a 2-3 bind up shift. You can bet these guys are not going to be waiting for any imaginary snap valves to take care of the 2-3 bind up. Their knowledge will dictate how they set up the trannys.
To further prove what i have said if you are wanting another source other than the Chrysler service manuals think of all the guys that have had problems with their trannys not wanting to shift into 3rd gear while the transmission was cold. Why do you guys think your that your transmission does not shift back into 1st gear when the 2-3 shift valve had already stroked, but rather stays in 2nd gear until he lipseal in the front drum swells up enough to capture 3rd gear oil . When you are in 4th gear locked up your first gear clutches, your 3rd gear clutch pack , your od clutch pack and your lockup clutch must all hold equally. Slippage in any one area will cause transmission failure. Again the technician that can set up your trans properly is the key to a good transmission.
Contrary to popular belief in some circles, changing your od direct from 8-10 has no bearing when you are in 4th gear locked up as this clutch pack is actually released when you are in 4th gear locked up.
For the record, 1991-1993 Dodge rams with the 518 transmissions came from the factory with 8 od direct clutches, 1994 –1995 or the 47RH transmissions had 9 od direct clutches, 1996 –2003 47 RE transmissions came from the factory with 10 , again the od direct clutches have no bearing what so ever when you are in 4th gear locked up going down the highway, Whether you are at 1600 or 3000 rpms they couldn’t care less as they are on a holiday doing nothing.
If you want a transmission where you can run it between 1600-1700 rpms on the highway and still maintain good transmission holding capacity the technician building your transmission as well as your transmission parts are equally important, the edge will always go to the technician that knows how to use a pressure gauge.
As far as locked to locked shifts are concerned it is only a matter of time before you burn out the transmission clutch packs or break and input shaft or hub or pump stator. We are trying to load some pictures up for you guys, we had 2 guys come in our shop this past week with these parts broken on their trucks that others told them that it couldn’t happen.
#ad
One was a 1995 Dodge Ram, he successfully did locked to locked shifts for about 3 years with 350 hp, one of Piers crazy customers. He took out his pump assembly, input shaft, and his transfer case all in one hit. He even lost his transmission case.
On top of that he had a 200-mile tow bill. The other was a 2001 truck he was more fortunate, he merely ripped the splines out of his input hub. He only had a 60-mile tow bill to his local Chrysler dealership. He brought us the transmission in pieces in a box as Chrysler wanted $ 4000 from him. Locked to locked shifts will eventually catch up to you, its just a matter of when.
It seems that the guys really advocating the locked to locked shifts are the guys running the factory torque converters or the milled stator torque converters.
Ok, now that that is done, i am going back to working on the race car. As Chris ripped the front strutt off the car , my mom made Bill
buy new ones,
I guess she figured at 160 + mph it was time for a change. Something about safety.
As Bill explained to me one of the most challenging parts of building the Chrysler transmission is that the Cummins makes a tremendous amount of torque at the low rpms and the Chrysler transmission is designed for higher rpms. At DTT as we have mentioned in the past pressure testing is not something we do for fun it is more like a religion.
Lets start with the TC, the oem factory system has a tremendous amount of leakage, if guys started pressure testing their tc’s they would find out exactly what we are talking about.
A 10 % leakage is considered excellent. 10-20 % leakage is considered good. 20-30 % is considered average.
For us when we pressure test the oem systems and our competitors 30 % and above is quite normal. One of the best-kept secrets by DTT is that we have changed the lockup clutch system. People are always amazed that how we can handle 800+ hp with a single disc clutch. According to Bill it’s not such a great feat at all.
Pascal’s law is:
(P. S. I. )Pressure = FORCE(LBS )
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ AREA ( SQ. IN. )
According to PASCAL’s law the lockup clutch system is over 70% stronger than 3rd gear. The problem with the oem factory system is that it has so much leakage.
If you want to pressure test your own lock up system it is quite simple.
Cooler line pressure vs overdrive pressure will give you your lockup clutch pressure within 4-5 %. That is counting on the fact that your od circuit is sound. ( not excessive leakage in od. ). To do a more accurate test you would have to modify the valve body and take readings from the switch valve.
So if you are running 100 psi at 2000 rpms in od locked up you should be also running 100 psi in the cooler lines during lockup. OEM + and – specs are the major reason for a lot of the reason for these transmission and tc failures and also why you see a lot of aftermarket transmission failures. .
The quality of the work you get done is not only dependent on the parts but the quality of the technician doing the work. If he does not pay attention to the specs in simple terms you are playing roulette.
A lot of people think you need to add a front cover to prevent your tc from ballooning.
Advocates of that mentality have obviously not pressure tested a tc in the Dodge Cummins Diesel. If they had they would know that the Chrysler converters are not even remotely close to ballooning.
In our testing DTT has run the pressures as high as 200 psi and did not balloon the tc .
Obviously Chrysler feels the same way as in the 48RE’s they have changed the pump assembly to add more pump volume by 20 %.
Another area that DTT has spent a great amount of time and resources is on the transmission case itself, since 1993 the quality of the machine work on the Chrysler transmission cases have continued to deteriorate. To try and compensate for this Bill spends between 10-20 minutes prepping the transmission cases where the vb bolts on to the transmission case. Again this is where the technician working on the truck comes into play.
If he doesn’t pay attention to these smaller details you could end up with more problems than you started with. This is the main reason we developed the valve body to transmission case gaskets. Transmission cases will still need prepping even with the vb gaskets but the gaskets show an increase of 5 – 6 psi on a good prepped case.
3rd gear is the weakest link in this transmission according to Pascal’s law. At DTT we changed the factory piston for 3rd gear to a billet piston to get rid of any leakage in that area, we have changed the sealing rings that feed the 3rd gear clutch pack, we have changed the front servo, now according to some people snap valves will help protect you from a 2-3 bind up. According to Bill they must be smoking some pretty good cigs if they are seeing snap valves on the Chrysler transmission as Chrysler does not use snap valves for the 2-3-shift valve on the 272,518, 47RH, or the 47 RE transmissions.
If you guys look in your Chrysler manual you will notice that the 2nd gear apply pressure is not exhausted when the transmission shifts into 3rd. Its 3rd gear pressure build up that releases the 2nd gear band it takes 28% less pressure from 3rd gear to actually release 2nd gear. So the 2nd gear band does not release until there is a 28% difference in the force between release and apply . Again this is not rocket science according to Bill but you know for you and I we have to really concentrate. Again this is Pascal’s law at work. The release side of 2nd gear servo has a greater surface area than the apply side of 2nd gear. But the pressure is never released on the apply side. I used my Chrysler 2000 service manual as a reference , Section 21 page 465 , compare that with Section 21 Page 466 .
You will find that this is why Chrysler does not like to have a 3-2 downshift and when you are slowing down the Chrysler transmission tends to go from 3rd -1st. Its not taht the technology does not exist to produce the 3-2 downshift but you must modify the 3rd gear release system in order to facilitate the 3-2 dowhshift. When we developed the smart controller we were forced to modify the 3rd gear release system.
If guys pressure tested the circuitry they would know this that Chrysler tends to vent 3rd and 2nd at the same time producing a 3-1 shift during the down shift. As a matter of fact Chrysler puts in a kick down limit valve that prevents a 3-2 downshift at higher speeds.
The technicians that know this circuitry will actually be able to build a transmission that will eliminate or reduce a 2-3 bind up shift. You can bet these guys are not going to be waiting for any imaginary snap valves to take care of the 2-3 bind up. Their knowledge will dictate how they set up the trannys.
To further prove what i have said if you are wanting another source other than the Chrysler service manuals think of all the guys that have had problems with their trannys not wanting to shift into 3rd gear while the transmission was cold. Why do you guys think your that your transmission does not shift back into 1st gear when the 2-3 shift valve had already stroked, but rather stays in 2nd gear until he lipseal in the front drum swells up enough to capture 3rd gear oil . When you are in 4th gear locked up your first gear clutches, your 3rd gear clutch pack , your od clutch pack and your lockup clutch must all hold equally. Slippage in any one area will cause transmission failure. Again the technician that can set up your trans properly is the key to a good transmission.
Contrary to popular belief in some circles, changing your od direct from 8-10 has no bearing when you are in 4th gear locked up as this clutch pack is actually released when you are in 4th gear locked up.
For the record, 1991-1993 Dodge rams with the 518 transmissions came from the factory with 8 od direct clutches, 1994 –1995 or the 47RH transmissions had 9 od direct clutches, 1996 –2003 47 RE transmissions came from the factory with 10 , again the od direct clutches have no bearing what so ever when you are in 4th gear locked up going down the highway, Whether you are at 1600 or 3000 rpms they couldn’t care less as they are on a holiday doing nothing.
If you want a transmission where you can run it between 1600-1700 rpms on the highway and still maintain good transmission holding capacity the technician building your transmission as well as your transmission parts are equally important, the edge will always go to the technician that knows how to use a pressure gauge.
As far as locked to locked shifts are concerned it is only a matter of time before you burn out the transmission clutch packs or break and input shaft or hub or pump stator. We are trying to load some pictures up for you guys, we had 2 guys come in our shop this past week with these parts broken on their trucks that others told them that it couldn’t happen.
#adOne was a 1995 Dodge Ram, he successfully did locked to locked shifts for about 3 years with 350 hp, one of Piers crazy customers. He took out his pump assembly, input shaft, and his transfer case all in one hit. He even lost his transmission case.
On top of that he had a 200-mile tow bill. The other was a 2001 truck he was more fortunate, he merely ripped the splines out of his input hub. He only had a 60-mile tow bill to his local Chrysler dealership. He brought us the transmission in pieces in a box as Chrysler wanted $ 4000 from him. Locked to locked shifts will eventually catch up to you, its just a matter of when.
It seems that the guys really advocating the locked to locked shifts are the guys running the factory torque converters or the milled stator torque converters.
Ok, now that that is done, i am going back to working on the race car. As Chris ripped the front strutt off the car , my mom made Bill
buy new ones,
I guess she figured at 160 + mph it was time for a change. Something about safety.
Last edited:
Stefan-it was nice to get a chance to talk to you. I glad you finally realized who I was. It sounds like what your dad told me and every time I talk to your dad it costs me. :{ But I can't wait for the parts to arrive including that billet input shaft. One of these days I'll get out west to one of the events and meet you guys or better yet maybe you'll come this way after we get our local TDR chapter rolling.
It was good talking to you too Bill, hopefully we will get out your way sometime or meet up at a race. You know when my dad told you about doing it right, that is exactly how it went down with the struts, she used those very same words
Last edited:
Thank You Stefan for that informative post, I found it interesting. So from what I understand, the overdrive clutches don't do anything while locked up in overdrive? What is their purpose? If I misunderstood please enlighten me.
Also, what's Bill's opinion on towing for extended periods with just fluid coupling?
I welcome all vendors' opinions on their own products. Slamming someone else's product doesn't help me any.
Also, what's Bill's opinion on towing for extended periods with just fluid coupling?
I welcome all vendors' opinions on their own products. Slamming someone else's product doesn't help me any.
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Issue 128 – Digital Version
Digital Magazines
FREE!
TDR Test Drive - Digital Edition
Renew
Subscribe
Gift Subscriptions
Back Issues
Subscription Status
Address Change Form
Buyer's Guides
Ram Diagnostic Trouble Codes
The Perfect Collection
The Perfect Collection Vol. II
TSB Updates
Dodge/Cummins Historical Overview
Cameron Collection
What Makes Us Tick?
Product Showcase
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