super mentals WHY only in the west

[bigbrassmonkey]

Why are super mental injectors only available on the west coast, there is nowhere else they can be installed, does DD not think that joe shmoe can install them???

 

[Todd T]

Bully Dogs are to be had right in your back yard.



www.smokindiesel.com



Doug and Andy are in PA.

 

[bigbrassmonkey]

I have Bully Dogs, I WANT super mentals!!!!

 

[Strick-9]

My understanding of the problem goes something like this.



DD makes quality products. Other companies wait for them to come up with a product, then copy it and undercut DD. DD then can't recover their research investment. The other company makes money, while DD doesn't.



It appears DD has grown tired of these actions so they only let their best products go to a small circle of friends whom they can trust to not sell their components to XYZ corp. to copy.



It's sad that DD has to go to such great lengths to protect themselves. It hurts the growth of diesel performance for all of us. If I worked at DD, I would do the same thing though.



I'm all for competition. Competition drives this country. But, some companies have no business ethics and are willing to blatantly copy a product. In their effort to make the almighty dollar they hinder growth.



-Chris

 

[Floor It]

So far what I'm finding out is that the bully dog stage 5's are as good as the super mentals and you can buy them straight out and dont have to have the IN HOUSE install only!Thats why I went with the bully dogs because I think diesel dynamic not selling the super mentals mail order is a crock! IMO. If another company wants to copy it they have some one have it installed at DD, and then take the truck back to their shop pull them out and copy it. So it doesn't seem that they are really protecting them self's, I understand the thought behind it but it can always be copied, thats part of being in buisness.

 

[Mopar-muscle]

BBmonkey , i know how you feel , i don't know if you could get them installed down at DD's shop in north carolina , i think you can , i know you have to go to lost vegtables to get the modified pump though .



whats your EGT now with the BD3's ???? also i would talk to bill , supermentals are not for the faint of heart . who did your DTT install , what was installed ? if you did ther install yourself and put in supermentals i believe your trans will live a short life as things with the front clutches and such need to be beefed to handle the power the super mentals make , i know stephan smoke high gear when they first installed them in bills truck.



dd is doing you and themselves a favor by not just selling them to anyone , seems when people install something they know is going to cause broken parts , then parts brake , they are quick to blame the person that sold them the parts even though they were warned . your trans is not setup for super mentals , you put them in and cook the trans , who are you going to blame ? you , DD , or DTT ????



sorry , i call it like i see it , cause i see it happen to much .

 

[STRALEY]

WHat hp are supermentals at? I have a set of Mitchells big ones for 24 valve and am starting to wonder if mentals will be more.



Where can I get more info? Jeremy

 

[COBRAJET]

What is the price for the BD5's. They are not listed on smokin diesel or BD's website?... CJ

 

[CUMINNTSTRKN]

bd5's

super mentals are rated at 125rwhp bd4's are rated at 120rwhp bd5's are rated for more. if anybody should be worried about secrets being stolen it would seem to me that bully dog should be. since i called lawerence and asked him if he had bigger injectors than super mentals he said no. now the bd5's are not for the faint of heart, they idle rough and they smoke bad.





cj

they list for around $1k call www.smokindiesel.com tell them jim sent ya.



jim

 

[MikeR]

supermentals vs bullydog 5

I am currently borrowing/testing Bill Kondolays' Supermental injectors. A couple of weeks ago,Jim (cumminntstrkn) came out for Dyno Day and he has Bully 5's.



We tried to make the comparison as fair as possible on the dyno:

My truck is a '00 ETC 6spd, and Jim's is a '01 ETH 6spd.

The Bully 5's made 48 more hp than the mentals. Of course it would have made sense to have ETC vs ETC or ETH vs ETH,but we used what we had and still I have no doubt the Bully's will still make more power.



A couple of obervations: the 5's smoke way more than the mentals and the 5's seem to burn 150-175 deg higher while cruising on the highway.



John is right about the "not for faint of heart". During the wet weather it is very hard to keep the truck straight on city streets and freeway onramps... and that's only with 1/4-1/3 throttle. 1/2 throttle? Forget it! I don't want to know how they do in the snow either.



I've been trying to get back to the track for 1/4mi testing,but it's been too wet here on the weekends,so it doesn't look like I'll get to. I'm scheduling another dyno run this week,then the injectors are shipping off to Fred S.



-Mike

 

[Bigsaint]

Get the BD 5's, you won't be sorry unless you are afraid of some wispy smoke or low FP readings . If you already have a set of BD injectors and want tu upgrade to larger, give Bullydog a call, I was able to turn in my sniffling step 3's (just kidding) for the 5's and they gave a $500. 00 credit for the 6 month old injectors. As far as the rough idle goes, guess I'm used to it, sounds pretty smooth at most times, small price to pay for good performance. Smoke really isn't that bad, you can control it to a certain extent. Again, guess I'm used to the 3's that I had before. Which ever injector you choose, make sure that you have modified banjo bolts and good FP readings at the minimium. I went with the Aeroquip elbows and Weber adapters as I wanted the braided line. May get flamed for this, but I don't see how the modified banjos can compare to a smooth elbow for less restriction.



Scott W.

 

[Bill Kondolay]

bigbrassmonkey,



Most TDR members i think appreciate when vendors are honest, forthright, and stand behind the products they sell you.



Now i have known Lawrence for a while now and he has earned my respect, while some of you may feel that he is a difficult guy to

talk to, i will admit yes, he can be. If he does not agree with what you want to do , he can be pretty stubborn, and he may not always explain his reasoning.



That being said, he cares about his reputation and the product he sells. Sometimes no sale is better that a quick sale without concience. I understand this being in the same boat with my products and my insistence of having them installed by qualified people .



bigbrassmonkey,



Piers will be the first guy to tell you the turbo was not intended for the kind of hp you have in mind.

As i understand it, Piers HX superturbo is designed for guys under 400 hp.



Please also hear me as i see your profile indicates you have our tc and vb, as far as i am aware your have not had your transmission prepped for the hp you are intending to put through it.



The tc will be ok, the vb will be ok , however your clutch packs have not been prepared, your transmission shift timing will become critical, these guys running the high hp trucks have done quite a bit of transmission prep . and even then they know it can still result in broken transmission parts.



Not to be the voice of doom, just to inform you to consider all the concequences before proceeding.



Your fuel system will be another issue.

When we tested the fuel system with the flow meter by addig the supermentals used 5 gallons of fuel more per hour than the

DD 11's. The stock oem fuel filter will flow between 40-60gallons of fuel per hour. I personally dont think that is enough flow.



Did you know your vp44 pump is not rated for # 1 Diesel?



On an automatic transmission ecm controls the engine idle,by adding large injectors like the supermentals the ecm cannot manage the idle properly which becomes a huge factor as the idle becomes lumpy, and when you try to drop it in gear you have a good chance of stalling your vehicle.



Adding a set of injectors is cheap, its all the components to compliment the supermental injectors or the bd stage 5 is what can get cosstly.



Just a little food for thought .

 

[Floor It]

Great reply Bill,I would have to agree 100% Some of us do know what were getting into and thats what makes it tough

 

[Bill Kondolay]

Floor It,



Can i ask you a question, if you were in Lawrences shoes what would you do?



Would you sell the supermentals to a guy you never met that asked you over the phone?



Keeping in mind you have only to go on the list of products he gave you that he has on his truck.



Now you as a professional in good concience know these injectors inside and out as you designed and built them.



First thing you notice is the turbo size is not adequate, do you feel any professional concience towards Piers knowing you are deliberately selling a product to this customer that may damage Piers and the now the customers turbo.



Now you know the fuel system is not adequate for the injectors as you know what these injectors flow per hour.



You are not Banks, and not Dr. performance, you are not relying on marketing and advertisments that make all kinds of promises that consumers want to hear and believe.

You rely on good service and word of mouth.





A lot of what you dont hear about is the breakage that guys go through when they start making this kind of power and it is mis-leading when guys are reading it and dont have the full story.



Lots of damaged heads, turbos, vp44 pumps, blown clutches, broken gears in the 5&6speeds, broken input shafts, broken output shafts in the automatics and not to leave out transfer cases and rearends.



When i loaned the injectors to Mike R for testing, sometimes i pick certain guys to test for me as i need feedback for my own records. I chose Mike because i knew he was a mechanic and had the necessary equiptment on his truck to support the mentals and if something was to happen he had the resources to look after the breakage.



Same with when they go to Fred , he is also testing another senario for me and again he is a mechanic and has the equiptment and the resources to fix his truck if something was to happen.



There is really no politically correct way to say this, as a business owner its a tough call.



The sale would be easy answer.

 

[Todd T]

OUCH!!



my Dad always told me to want in one hand and spit in the other and see which one filled up faster.



Strick 9, its called "reverse engineering" and it can, and has been a good thing. without these other supposed thiefs, we would not have a demand for a better product. or a reason to lower costs of ONE. if there is only ONE then there is only ONE price.



I DO NOT agree with you that Bully Dog has taken anything. they have been in business for several years now and do their own research. that is why their injectors can out flow the DD's if they just copied them then they would be equal.



I wish that someone would take their gloves off and take a homily of all these different parts and test them. I dont mean maximum dyno #'s I mean test data. two trucks, one auto, one manual, pull the engine down and measure recovery time, EGTS, Max output, do an extended load test, heat it, cool it, different combo's, fuel consumption, oil samples, wear measurements, etc, etc, etc.



its like a raffle, by the owners an insurance policy ($15K) and go to town.



come on, I dare you. then whoever is left would be what is called the "Cream of the Crop" all the rest, fall in line.

 

[TxDieselKid]

sounds like a good idea...

Originally posted by Todd T





I wish that someone would take their gloves off and take a homily of all these different parts and test them. I dont mean maximum dyno #'s I mean test data. two trucks, one auto, one manual, pull the engine down and measure recovery time, EGTS, Max output, do an extended load test, heat it, cool it, different combo's, fuel consumption, oil samples, wear measurements, etc, etc, etc.

Sounds like somebody who has an engine dyno, and a spare isb that has the Cummins ECM (for looking at the data on the ECM) would be the idea test subject. Once you get to the drivetrain part, then it's just too many varibles.



AJB

 

[Floor It]

I do understand your point Bill but if someone ordered a 8-71 blower from weiand they give you a sheet telling what you need in your engine to run this blower. If you so choose not to follow their recomendation then your taking a chance of doing damage. Same if you buy a TCI 8in race convertor,thell sell it to you and tell you what you need to make it work properly. So if anyone called DD and wanted the super mentals they should be told that this is the way the injectors act and perform like and this is what you need to make them work. What if someone bought DD3's from Diesel Dynamics or another company and put them in with out gauges or the boost moduel?You would hurt the motor,but they will sell the DD3's all day long. Anything you do to hop up your truck takes a chance of hurting it, some things will do it faster than others. Thats why there has to good comunication between the buisness and the customer. Personally if I was Lawrence I would sell the super mentals and tell and put in the instructions what has to be done to make them work right and safely.

 

[bigbrassmonkey]

All the info is apreciated

 

[Strick-9]

Todd T,



Before you go putting words in my mouth, please re-read my post. You'll see that the words Bully Dog are nowhere to be found. I never mentioned them even once. You can also note that I've never edited my post to remove them.



I don't know anyone that works for Bully Dog, nor do I have any direct experience with them, good or bad.



But answer this question for me. Assume I bought one of DD's super mental injectors and bored it out to 'outflow' the supermental and ended up with poorer atomization which causes more black smoke and 200° higher EGT's but picked up 5 hp.



Do you call that engineering and research? Would you say I didn't copy DD's design? Would you say I didn't take anything from them?



From the sound of your response, you would probably argue each one of these.



Finally, would you say I had low ethical standards or would I be a good businessman?



-Chris

 

[Todd T]

Strick 9, first, I guess I crossed the line assuming you were implying that Bully dog were the culprits in mind, after all, we were referring to them up until that point. My bad, I’ll delete it if you’d like.

Secondly to redress your question if I were to take your head after you worked on it. And flowed it on a flow bench to determine that if I were to do this that or the other to it, on top of what you had done. To make it better, would that be called copying from you, or improving on your ideas to make a better outcome? Baffling huh?

All minds don’t think alike, and some (like mine) don’t think at all I don’t know the real reason for DD to hold their secrets close to heart, so all I can do is speculate, like the rest of you and let you know of an alternative if there is one.



This topic could be drove into the ground and we are really getting off the original topic. I think Bill K. was dead on with his reasoning.