Surprising result worth noting (Turbo Air Guide)

[Car_nut57]

It's not uncommon for the TAG to show a slight loss in hp and torque regarding peak dyno numbers. On the road very seldom do most operate their trucks at the same conditions as peak numbers appear on the dyno. Most of the dyno runs show an increase in hp and torque in the low end and mid range just as the dyno shows on our website http://www.dieselpowerproducts.com/tag At the peak numbers even on the Ford application shown on our site no real gain or loss is shown, but in the low end and mid range the gains are significant. Also the dyno does not show any of the other benefits of the TAGs such as lower EGTs, less smoke and better fuel economy. Another thing to consider is these dynos are from the original TAG which we still offer, but have also developed the TAG-II and TAG-III for the Dodge Cummins which have superior performance characteristics compared tot he TAG.

 

[KEarnest]

I have spoken to Dave about this, and I believe that a "load-type" dyno such as a Mustang would be the best way to test any of the TAG units. Last summer, I dynoed on a Dynojet and could see a slight increase in hp across the graph, with a 3hp loss on top. But, without loading the truck up such as street/towing conditions allow, I don't think the true benefits of the TAG units can be seen, such as a dyno graph. The increase in fuel mileage and spoolup, along with the decrease in smoke and EGT's are the things that prove the benefits of the TAG units to me.

 

[DPKetchum]

Results were not very graphic when the ironoizer was introduced for gas engines eaither. They really shined when used with Duralube!

 

[Car_nut57]

KEarnest,



One thing that I think is misleading about dyno information and the TAG is, the dyno is a full throttle excursion where everything is advancing as fast and as hard as it can. Everyday driving in not much full throttle at all or at least not the way I drive. The results we typically use for the TAG working is lower boost pressure for the same load condition. This is an indication of effect in a few ways, 1) producing the same amount of power at a lower boost pressure means the air being compressed is cooler and therefore more dense helping to improve performance. 2) lower boost pressure, means less back pressure against the turbine and also the engine which lets it breath easier. 3) with less load on the turbo when you add fuel the turbo can spool faster.



Recently a tech at one of the larger Dodge dealers in this part of the world tested the TAG-III in his own truck. The dyno showed little or no increase in hp or torque which is to be expected. The emissions test showed a dramatic reduction in smoke just as earlier versions of the TAG have. This gentleman said he could really feel the extra power while driving the truck and saw a 2mpg gain is fuel economy.

 

[bubba_zanetti]

Interesting thread.



At low airflow, pressure change from input to output is negligible, but as the velocity increases the resistance increases dramatically.



We have already decided that the engine requires more air... to "breathe easier".



Stator vanes in jet engines are part of the pump to compress the air, and not used in "straightening the air".



Wind tunnels straighten the air so that the test equipment will have a known quantity of air to measure.



You don't see window screens in the front of jet engines for two reasons, one, they will ice up due to induction icing, two, they slow the flow of air. There is one aircraft out there with a permanently installed screen... the Stealth Fighter... it is designed so that the engine compressor rotors will not reflect radar energy... not for smoother air to the engine.



In theory this might make a minuscule amount of change, but I would say the increased drag balances out any gain from the air 'stalling' over the turbine.



And if it can't be proved on a dyno, the track, or emissions tester... with duplicate results over many trials... then I have a hard time believing this device does anything.

 

[rbattelle]

Wind tunnels straighten the air so that the test equipment will have a known quantity of air to measure.

With all due respect, this statement is untrue. Wind tunnels use flow straighteners to provide homogeneous flow at the test section with minimal turbulence.



Certainly it cannot be denied that an idealized radial compressor acts upon flow that is perpendicular to the impeller face. What can be argued is whether the loss of flow area due to the presence of a TAG will eliminate any benefit of having it in place.



Respectfully,

Ryan

 

[bubba_zanetti]

With all due respect, this statement is untrue. Wind tunnels use flow straighteners to provide homogeneous flow at the test section with minimal turbulence.



Respectfully,

Ryan

I agree, I was being simplistic in my explanation.

 

[bubba_zanetti]

I assume you mean that pressure stays the same but you are able to increase velocity?



Or are you applying bernoulli's law, and increasing velocity but lowering pressure for the same amount of work. W=PV or P1V1=P2V2





OOPS the original message I was replying to disappeared... well here is a copy I got in the mail.

Recently we have started to do some testing of air velocity into the turbo with and without the TAG. Yes, the TAG does present a very small restriction in the air intake stream as so many are quick to point out, but it does have a positive effect as well in air flow volume. To establish the actual air flow into the turbo a 4" piece of metal pipe was fit with two fittings to make a pitot tube arrangement to be connected to a Magnehelix which will allow for direct readings of air flow velocity through a duct. Here is an explanation of how this works http://www.dwyer-inst.com/htdocs/airvelocity/AirVelocityIntroduction.cfm The 4" tube is placed up stream of the turbo with consideration of bends and placement to measure filtered air velocity before reaching the turbo. By placing the pitot tube well in front of the turbo we are measuring the air flow in the tube at the same location with or without the TAG in place. We have seen approximately a 200fpm increase in air velocit!

y using the TAG with total flows at lower boost pressures around 5,000fpm.



We have just started to take readings and will need to connect more instrumentation to yield a true overall picture of the effects of the TAG including exhaust back pressure, boost pressure, air volumes, air velocity, and EGTs amongst the many parameters we hope to test. Test results are not yet conclusive or ready to be posted, so you will not see them on our website.



One interesting thing, is under heavy load conditions, the intake air as it enters the turbo opening to the compressor wheel is traveling well over 300mph.

 

[rbattelle]

I assume you mean that pressure stays the same but you are able to increase velocity?



Or are you applying bernoulli's law, and increasing velocity but lowering pressure for the same amount of work. W=PV or P1V1=P2V2

Certainly they can't claim to maintain pressure and increase velocity since the TAG has no energy input. Since the TAG is not an airfoil, orifice, nozzle, or diffuser, I'm unclear how it could do anything except lower pressure and velocity (and straighten the flow / reduce turbulence). As far as I'm concerned, the sole purpose for the TAG is turbulence reduction.



-Ryan

 

[bubba_zanetti]

Thats what I was thinking, the increased velocity is due to constriction in the pipe... on that note I wonder how much turbulence that flexi pipe from the filter to the turbo creates.



For my part, it is simply a mental exercise, trying to wrap my brain around this product. Not saying it does or doesn't do anything, but I am waiting for the math.

 

[KYLE4]

Wow I missed all this discussion look out for the big blue hose It should be a great alteranative to the afe torque tube Dave keep up the good work

 

[hsmith]

I have two for a 2nd gen I pulled because of no change in performance, spool time, etc. Any offers?

 

[DPKetchum]

Maybe the wife good use then in the kitchen. Pasta strainers or ?

 

[hsmith]

I didn't have any less turbo whine with the tag either. That is what I really wanted.

 

[Car_nut57]

TAG Testing

With all due respect, this statement is untrue. Wind tunnels use flow straighteners to provide homogeneous flow at the test section with minimal turbulence.



Certainly it cannot be denied that an idealized radial compressor acts upon flow that is perpendicular to the impeller face. What can be argued is whether the loss of flow area due to the presence of a TAG will eliminate any benefit of having it in place.



Respectfully,

Ryan

Interesting you should bring this up. Recently we have begun testing of air flow in the intake tube up stream of the turbo and have found some interesting preliminary results. First the TAG does represent a small addition of resistence to air flow in the 4" tube leading to the tubo. On the bench we measured resistence to flow through the intake tube used on 94-02 trucks and at the flow we had we saw 1. 0"H20, then placed the TAG in the hose and the vacuum raised to 1. 3"H20. To give some perspective to this it takes about 28"H20 to equal 1psi.



With that said we used a pitot tube set up in the intake hose and Magnehelix to find the velocity of the air in the hose. The pitot tubo part was placed such that it would not be moved when installing the TAG. We also used boost pressure and exhaust back pressure gauges as well to help with the comparison. It is too soon to share extended data which we are in the process of taking at this time, but I can tell you we did see a 200fpm increase in air velocity in the hose using the TAG at the same boost pressure. Here is a link that explains how these types of measurements are commonly taken. http://www.dwyer-inst.com/htdocs/airvelocity/AirVelocityIntroduction.cfm

Attached is a photo of the gauges and pitot tube configuration being used.



Oo. I had to edit this post to day to add the latest information about cfm flow using the TAG-III on a 2004 Dodge. Basically the TAG-III increased air flow by almost 9%. More information is on our website.

 

[rbattelle]

Wow, you guys don't mess around! I am impressed.



-Ryan

 

[Stamey]

Is there a TAG for the Garrett HT3B?

With a twin turbo setup, is there any advantage to having a TAG in both turbos, or should there just be a TAG in just one?

If just one, which one?



Thanks,

Chris

 

[Car_nut57]

Is there a TAG for the Garret HT3B?

With a twin turbo setup, is there any advantage to having a TAG in both turbos, or should there just be a TAG in just one?

If just one, which one?



Thanks,

Chris

We now have TAGs to fit most turbos used on Dodge Cummins trucks and believe it or not, we have not yet had anyone test TAGs in both turbos on a twin set up. Give me a call and I would be happy to work with you to test TAGs with Twins.

 

[rbattelle]

The plot that Car_Nut just posted is very interesting. The TAG manages to increase the flow capacity of the intake system. Since the device is passive, this tells me that the TAG does have some beneficial effect in reducing turbulence, and therefore is able to cram a bit more air through the system. Notice the plot contains data on the TAG-III, which is mounted significantly upstream of the original TAG. I suspect the benefit in CFM is more significant than with the original TAG as a result.



I suspect (just a guess... an educated one I hope) that a smooth intake tube in combination with a TAG would offer the best possible benefit as far as potential flow rate. Interesting. I wonder why the slope levels off temporarily between 11 and 17 psi... it indicates operators should avoid running in that boost region.



The TAG seems to do just about what I would have expected it to do.



-Ryan

 

[OHale]

I have two for a 2nd gen I pulled because of no change in performance, spool time, etc. Any offers?

Did you remember to attach the cow magnets?



I apologize in advance for my apparent loss of restraint. :-laf