So now I am confused you want to know about longevity and high wear situations. Amsoilman very technically explained the complete researched advantages of a synthetic oil (lower pour temps and higher breakdown temps), the dino oil lovers base their oppinion on cost of oil and 1 maybe 2 documented million milers. One CTD engine in crate is $11000 US divided by $250 US per oil change 44 oil changes x 20000 miles extended drain equals 880,000 miles. Wheres the bargain in $2. 00 per quart oil which offers less lubricity,pourability and breakdown prevention, the analytical labs also can tell you when you are above the average wear but typically synthetics will out perform dino oils. Until you see their proof expressed in wear factor numbers your only proof will be the lab results in comparison to factory wear specs the lab has on hand. In case of suit in court against DC buddies heresay will not help you lab results will. Manmade mechanical devices will always have failure, your investment comes from your bank account not DC's, my dad told me to change oil every 3000 miles I have hauled him home twice I still don't listen to him. PK
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Synthetic vs dino
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Based on the warranty information and his type of usage he should be changing his oil every 3,750 miles anytime the temperature gets below 32 degrees. Now it is up to him if he wants to do that with synthetic or dino? Just telling you what my owners manual states. I think DC would try and stick it to you if you had a problem and you could not document that you followed the manual. JMHO Don't get me wrong I am not saying it needs to be changed that often.
More mpg with Extreme
It may be just because I am at 27k miles and it is breaking in better but I put in Premium Blue Extreme 5w-40 Synthetic and I am at 16 mpg combined and can get 20 at constant highway- I have the worst case scenario truck and got 1 mpg- no oil consumption since I put it in at 23,800. I drive a lot -the truck is 10 months old. I like the synthetic and have used Mobil 1 in my Tahoe for 140,000+ trouble free miles.
It may be just because I am at 27k miles and it is breaking in better but I put in Premium Blue Extreme 5w-40 Synthetic and I am at 16 mpg combined and can get 20 at constant highway- I have the worst case scenario truck and got 1 mpg- no oil consumption since I put it in at 23,800. I drive a lot -the truck is 10 months old. I like the synthetic and have used Mobil 1 in my Tahoe for 140,000+ trouble free miles.
Did anyone notice that Cummins is now RECOMMENDING synthetics?
Of course, the one they like, they own!
Jetpilot,
Good move, there is no telling what ends up in your oil!
Wait until it gets ten degrees out, and get use to how your truck turns over in the morning.
Then switch to synthetic. You will like it!
Those short trips are harder on any engine than running 24/7.
Of course, the one they like, they own!
Jetpilot,
Good move, there is no telling what ends up in your oil!
Wait until it gets ten degrees out, and get use to how your truck turns over in the morning.
Then switch to synthetic. You will like it!
Those short trips are harder on any engine than running 24/7.
I LIVE in central florida (for OAT information), 17 miles to work one way running at 65mph.
I have 6200 on my 2002 3500 auto. As I understand it I should run till 10000 before I switch to synthetics. Have I got that approximately correct?
When I go to synthetics how often approximately between syn engine oil changes?
I am still planning to change the fuel filter every 10k (ie will be in the engine compartment).
What is the approx cost per gallon of say Amsoil synthetic anyway?
Thanks
Bob Weis
I have 6200 on my 2002 3500 auto. As I understand it I should run till 10000 before I switch to synthetics. Have I got that approximately correct?
When I go to synthetics how often approximately between syn engine oil changes?
I am still planning to change the fuel filter every 10k (ie will be in the engine compartment).
What is the approx cost per gallon of say Amsoil synthetic anyway?
Thanks
Bob Weis
"I have 6200 on my 2002 3500 auto. As I understand it I should run till 10000 before I switch to synthetics. Have I got that approximately correct?"
That is the earliest you can change to synthetic
"When I go to synthetics how often approximately between syn engine oil changes?"
You will have to make a Warranty decision at that time. If you want to keep your 5 year 100K mile engine warranty "safe" you will have records showing you changed your oil and filter based on the owners manual and your driving style (severe/normal) and you used oil that has the API donut meeting your engine requirements.
"I am still planning to change the fuel filter every 10k (ie will be in the engine compartment). "
Bob you should do some searches on fuel filter change intervals. I think you will find that the 15K mile interval recommended by DC will work fine. Just use a fueling station that is high volume and most of the members use a fuel additive. It won't hurt anything to change it at 10K and you might want to do that at 10K the first time to check out how it looks. Cut it open and look at the inside, the outside will be dirty but it is the inside that you want to look at.
All this is JMHO
PS - The way you are using your truck you should stick with Dino oil. Your trips too and from work are long enough and all highway and your truck is stock.
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SYnthetic in new engine
I waited until 23,000+ and until than used Premium Blue dino or Mopar 15w-40 dino. Unloaded I do not think these things seat in until at least 20k- wait and than change the synthetic at the reccomended intervals- a few dollars here and there saved really doesn't mean much if you have to demonstrate that you changed at regular intervals. After the warranty period do what you want it is your nickel. I think this Extreme is going to prove to be great stuff and since Cummins/Valvoline tested it in our engines and make specific claims of increased mileage and durability I have confidence in it.
I waited until 23,000+ and until than used Premium Blue dino or Mopar 15w-40 dino. Unloaded I do not think these things seat in until at least 20k- wait and than change the synthetic at the reccomended intervals- a few dollars here and there saved really doesn't mean much if you have to demonstrate that you changed at regular intervals. After the warranty period do what you want it is your nickel. I think this Extreme is going to prove to be great stuff and since Cummins/Valvoline tested it in our engines and make specific claims of increased mileage and durability I have confidence in it.
If you extend your drains using Amsoil, and follow their procedure, your warranty is not in jeopardy. In fact, the Amsoil warranty picks up where the factory warranty quits.
If any dealer claims your warranty is voided for extending your drains, have them put it in writing. They won't.
Do a search, has there been anybody that has had an oil related failure? Any oil?
Has anyone reported a warranty voided because a synthetic was used? Or extended drains?
I doubt this engine would fail in the warranty period if you used cooking oil.
The things that do fail under warranty, oil has nothing to do with.
If you let a dealer void your warranty for any reason, it is your fault for not knowing your rights and the law. Or, it is your fault for adding power, beyond what the truck was designed for. (guilty)
What is best for your truck is not always listed in the owners manual.
If any dealer claims your warranty is voided for extending your drains, have them put it in writing. They won't.
Do a search, has there been anybody that has had an oil related failure? Any oil?
Has anyone reported a warranty voided because a synthetic was used? Or extended drains?
I doubt this engine would fail in the warranty period if you used cooking oil.
The things that do fail under warranty, oil has nothing to do with.
If you let a dealer void your warranty for any reason, it is your fault for not knowing your rights and the law. Or, it is your fault for adding power, beyond what the truck was designed for. (guilty)
What is best for your truck is not always listed in the owners manual.
Correct me if I’m wrong, Gene, but I believe that Amsoil’s warrantee requires oil analysis if you go past 7,000 miles or 6 months between changes. I bring this up only as a point of information since we all know that synthetics and even good Group II conventional oils hold up much longer than that in the Cummins.
As for J’s original question (syn vs dino), I think there is a clear answer. 5 mile trips in a cool climate are hard on both the engine and the oil. In order to minimize wear during short trips and improve drive ability after startup, he should use a 5W oil. I once read an SAE paper on the development of Delvac 1 where they put a sensor on the roller bearings of a big rig Cummins and measured the time it took different oils to get there upon startup. At 10 degrees F, it took almost 1 min for conventional 15W-40 to reach the bearings. If I remember correctly, a 5W-40 synthetic oil got there in less than 1/4 that time. Since all 5W-30 or 40 diesel oils are synthetic, that sort of answers the question.
I’ve used 15W-40 Delo, Delvac 1, and 15W-40 Amsoil in my own truck and I can say unequivocally that the engine settled down faster at temperatures below 20 F with the 5W-40 Delvac and that I could drive away sooner than with the 15W-40 oils. The Amsoil synthetic is noticeably better in the cold than the Delo, which has the lowest pour point of any 15W-40 conventional oil.
The new 5W-40 Group III oils (like Premium Blue Extreme, Rotella, Delo synthetic, Petro Canada Duron) would be a cost effective solution for J’s driving situation, especially since he says that he is not interested in extended drain intervals. At $9-$12 per gallon, they are a deal.
As for J’s original question (syn vs dino), I think there is a clear answer. 5 mile trips in a cool climate are hard on both the engine and the oil. In order to minimize wear during short trips and improve drive ability after startup, he should use a 5W oil. I once read an SAE paper on the development of Delvac 1 where they put a sensor on the roller bearings of a big rig Cummins and measured the time it took different oils to get there upon startup. At 10 degrees F, it took almost 1 min for conventional 15W-40 to reach the bearings. If I remember correctly, a 5W-40 synthetic oil got there in less than 1/4 that time. Since all 5W-30 or 40 diesel oils are synthetic, that sort of answers the question.
I’ve used 15W-40 Delo, Delvac 1, and 15W-40 Amsoil in my own truck and I can say unequivocally that the engine settled down faster at temperatures below 20 F with the 5W-40 Delvac and that I could drive away sooner than with the 15W-40 oils. The Amsoil synthetic is noticeably better in the cold than the Delo, which has the lowest pour point of any 15W-40 conventional oil.
The new 5W-40 Group III oils (like Premium Blue Extreme, Rotella, Delo synthetic, Petro Canada Duron) would be a cost effective solution for J’s driving situation, especially since he says that he is not interested in extended drain intervals. At $9-$12 per gallon, they are a deal.
No. In fact a friend of mine took his Amsoiled truck in three times for oil leaks under warranty. The dealer said nothing even though he asked them to save the oil and reuse it the second and third times. First time they replaced his 2000 mile old Amsoil with dino. This dealer is well known for trying to get out of warranty claims.
I'm not going to get into what may have caused the leaks though.
My friend's only justification for using synthetic even though I told him I feel it's a waste of money was one I've never heard before but makes perfect sense - he doesn't want to mess with oil changes on long trips.
Originally posted by illflem
I'm not going to get into what may have caused the leaks though.
.
That is good you don't illflem, because there again, I would suggest the search feature, on leaks, and find how many of our pride and joys leaked right off the showroom floor with factory oil.
I had a leak free truck on synthetics until 130,000 miles, however, 500hp, and Sled Pulling took its toll this summer, and I have a few seaps here and there.
Lee, checking on that.....
Yep,
"SERVICE LIFE
Diesel engines, fleet vehicle engines and industrial engines: drain oil at intervals up to two times longer than recommended by the engine manufacturer or at six month intervals. Extended drain intervals may be used if they are supported by the findings of used oil analysis. "
So schedule "A" would be 12,000 miles, or "B" would be 6000, according to my 1997 book. These are no miles for regular oil, let alone a high quality synthetic.
Lee, you may be absolutely right on the cheaper "synthetics", but why would the old petro guard jump on the new comers bandwagon and test products that DON"T have 30 years exprience in the synthetic market?
My feeling, if you are not going run the old standbys, Delo, Rotella, etc, you may as well run the best you can buy.
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Redline- never found anything better
Well, let me suggest Redline, since it seems no one has yet. I know that Redline is hard to find, and freakin expensive, but it's worth that to me.
ON my Maxima, I have always run Redline 15K on a change, changing the filter halfway through- it's got almost 100K on it now, mostly stop and go. The stuff always comes out clean, and my motor is so clean inside that you could perform open heart surgery inside the valve covers.
My Truck will soon see Redline too. I will go 20K on a change (filters halfway through again) until I get a bypass system. I am not going to wait 20K before I switch. Full Synthetic (Mob 1) is factory fill on Vipers, Corvettes, and I think Porsches as well. Do those engines not have piston rings? Do they not require seating?
Think of this: some machine shop operations use a lubricant as they cut. The reduction in friction from the lubricant produces a finer quality result, and reduces strain on the machine tools. Isn't your Cummins "machining" its new rings and such in as it is breaking in? Wouldn't a reduction in friction produce less heat strain as this happens, and a finer quality result in the end?
I am aware that switching to SYN so early means that my rings and such will take much longer to seat. That's fine. "seating" is WEAR, and I want to slow down/eliminate that as much as possible.
If you are asking about what's the most economical, then there are cases to be made for both Dino and Syn oils. To me, though, oil is about reducing friction and helping my stuff last forever. If I can afford the very best, I will use it. The arguments for SYN from that perspective are bulletproof.
Redline in the car cost about 7X what a reg car oil costs. For diesel, its only about 5X the cost.
BTW, stay away from oils that have a big spread in the numbers, like 0W-40, 5W-50 and so on. The way they get that is by starting with a thin oil and dumping a bunch of STP like additive into it until it test out at the higher viscosity. I would imagine a Syn 15W-40 will flow as good as any dino oil in the cold, no matter what viscosity. Just compare pour point and such. Then, when the motor warms up, you have a thicker oil film anyway. I would run the 15W-40 Redline year round no matter where I lived... .
Well, let me suggest Redline, since it seems no one has yet. I know that Redline is hard to find, and freakin expensive, but it's worth that to me.
ON my Maxima, I have always run Redline 15K on a change, changing the filter halfway through- it's got almost 100K on it now, mostly stop and go. The stuff always comes out clean, and my motor is so clean inside that you could perform open heart surgery inside the valve covers.
My Truck will soon see Redline too. I will go 20K on a change (filters halfway through again) until I get a bypass system. I am not going to wait 20K before I switch. Full Synthetic (Mob 1) is factory fill on Vipers, Corvettes, and I think Porsches as well. Do those engines not have piston rings? Do they not require seating?
Think of this: some machine shop operations use a lubricant as they cut. The reduction in friction from the lubricant produces a finer quality result, and reduces strain on the machine tools. Isn't your Cummins "machining" its new rings and such in as it is breaking in? Wouldn't a reduction in friction produce less heat strain as this happens, and a finer quality result in the end?
I am aware that switching to SYN so early means that my rings and such will take much longer to seat. That's fine. "seating" is WEAR, and I want to slow down/eliminate that as much as possible.
If you are asking about what's the most economical, then there are cases to be made for both Dino and Syn oils. To me, though, oil is about reducing friction and helping my stuff last forever. If I can afford the very best, I will use it. The arguments for SYN from that perspective are bulletproof.
Redline in the car cost about 7X what a reg car oil costs. For diesel, its only about 5X the cost.
BTW, stay away from oils that have a big spread in the numbers, like 0W-40, 5W-50 and so on. The way they get that is by starting with a thin oil and dumping a bunch of STP like additive into it until it test out at the higher viscosity. I would imagine a Syn 15W-40 will flow as good as any dino oil in the cold, no matter what viscosity. Just compare pour point and such. Then, when the motor warms up, you have a thicker oil film anyway. I would run the 15W-40 Redline year round no matter where I lived... .
Re: Redline- never found anything better
Hohn, I like your logic but diesels are a different animal. You want to wait 20K and then go to synthetic. Do the dino change at 1K for the first one change to the Stratpore filter and then change every 3K until you get to 20K then go with your synthetic. Engine should last 1,000,000 miles and run better because of the breakin. JMHO At least listen to other TDR members before you change to synthetic to soon.
Hohn, I like your logic but diesels are a different animal. You want to wait 20K and then go to synthetic. Do the dino change at 1K for the first one change to the Stratpore filter and then change every 3K until you get to 20K then go with your synthetic. Engine should last 1,000,000 miles and run better because of the breakin. JMHO At least listen to other TDR members before you change to synthetic to soon.
Re: Re: Redline- never found anything better
PS I have a Toyota Landcruiser that I have used Mobil 1 in for most of its life. It has 120K miles on it and when I checked the valve adjustment it looked new and every spec was spot on. I too believe in synthetics but not in the CTD until it has been broken in. If you tow heavy that could be in 10K miles. If it is a daily driver it would be 20K miles.
PS I have a Toyota Landcruiser that I have used Mobil 1 in for most of its life. It has 120K miles on it and when I checked the valve adjustment it looked new and every spec was spot on. I too believe in synthetics but not in the CTD until it has been broken in. If you tow heavy that could be in 10K miles. If it is a daily driver it would be 20K miles.
Mr. Fleming you continually bash synthetic technology and promote the manufacturers book of profit as to what they would like us to do. Could you please show us your dino oil analysis record to prove us wrong as I just finished working at a tarsands plant that has invested 4 Billion in synthetic technology. As well the leading gear box manufacturers are offering a premium warranty on their products if you stay with the synthetics as they offer premium heat and lubricity statistics (ie; Eaton, Hayes/Dana and Meritor alias Rockwell). You are correct in that putting a synthetic into an engine early will cause a problem in the seating procedure. Block core shift and modern ring components need time to mate to each other and will show high wear levels in the first few oil changes, I strongly disagree that these engines are fully broken in at 10k-20k miles. My 91 finally broke in at 45k miles and my 2001 because of the electronics and running cleaner is just leveling out now 58k miles. Again you are right about leakage there will be more leakage due to poor seals and gaskets as synthetics are engineered to flow and will flow with tighter tolerances than dino sludge. Don't see where you save with dino as on -45F morning I have oil pressure in 8 seconds and I know that some the boys are waiting 50-90 seconds of bearing scuffing cold running piston hammering operation. PK
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