Synthetic vs dino

[Reddog1]

Pkennedy – you make a very good point with your observation that manufactures put a lot of research in their products. My confusion comes in as to which manufacture we choose to believe, and why?



As to someone investing 4 Billion in anything, simply suggest they expect to make a larger profit on their investment.



One of our fellow members suggests we need to use synthetics due to our increasing our horsepower. I wonder, have the 2003’s changed their oil requirements?



My logic tells me that extreme conditions could very well dictate modifications that would go outside of a given manufactures engineering and guidelines. I question that the same lubricant would be as efficient at -40 degrees as it would be at +120 degrees. That in my opinion applies to both synthetic and dino.



I cannot see and end to the synthetic or dino issue. No matter which side of this issue you choose to be on, you simply have to read on the side of the container to become an expert, and prove your case.



I want the very best for my Cummins. I am using the very best. No one can disprove I am using the very best, cause I am not saying what I am using. I know it is the very best because it says so on the label.



It could be interesting to know how many Cummins engines are rebuilt as a proven result of improper lubricant use.



I wish we could get as much discussion going on anti-freeze. I am the second owner of my Ram, and when I looked in the radiator, I saw more plaque than at the dentist office.



It is unfortunate that if we should disagree with Mr. Fleming’s opinion, he is “continually bash synthetic technology and promote the manufacturers book of profit as to what they would like us to do. ” Mr. Fleming has disagreed with me on several occasions, I didn’t realize I was being bashed. I will be more attentive.



A thought to ponder: The only thing that is true is what you and I agree on.



Wayne

 

[illflem]

Originally posted by pkennedy

Mr. Fleming you continually bash synthetic technology and promote the manufacturers book of profit as to what they would like us to do.

I don't know where you came up with that remark. The only beefs I have with synthetics is the high price and Amsoil's marketing tactics. They are superior lubes but so what if the if the price isn't justifiable. I don't wear a Rolex when a Timex will do. I have a lot of rigs and equipment to maintain, buy Delo in 55 gallon drums for a little more than $4/ga and go though 150+ gallons/year. I could be changing oil every 1000 miles and still be money ahead, every 2000 miles and I could easily pay someone to change it and dispose of the waste. Since I go 5k, do it myself and disposal is free I'm very far ahead. I'm not interested in extended drains. If I only had one rig to maintain and was on the road all the time I might consider synthetics, but as it is now there's no way to justify the higher price.

 

[Lsfarm]

Break-in

Hohn, your logic about preventing wear sounds good but unfortuantely is not a good idea.



I spent many years as an engine rebuilder, and what can happen if you go to Synthetic too soon is that the rings will NEVER wear in and seat properly. The same thing happens when a new engine is babied too much.



The diesel engine must have as close to perfect ring sealing as possible. In an engine that is still wearing in, there is some blowby past the rings, and this will never go away if the rings never seat. The result is an engine that will always use a bit of oil, and never achieve it's best effeciency.



I agree with the above post about following what has been proven to work: at least 10K , better 20K on dino oil with frequent filter changes. Then switch to synthetic. This milage depends on the loads imposed on the truck/engine.



The way we used to help 'force' a break in on a new engine was to take it out on the road and really put some load on it, at low to mid rpm if possible. The intent is to create high combustion chamber pressures, not high rpm The equivalent with our trucks is to put a load in the bed and add one behind, and go out and work the Cummins as hard as you can.



Comparing our Cummins to the engines in the Viper and Corvette is not really valid. Our engine is a workhorse, the others a race horse. The race horse is not going to go the 500K miles your engine can easily do, and is protected by synthetic from the factory because these 'race' engines are not capable of surviving max power/max rpm output for days at a time. Our Cummins is designed to give this type of service.



The synthetic oil will protect the Viper and Corvette from the teenage son or daughter better than will Dino oil.



Whatever you do, it is your truck, best of luck.



Greg L. The Noise Nazi

 

[pkennedy]

Again I will defend my position, the 4 billion invested is of course profit driven but by a market demanding more from the same. Us unfortunate people up here are about embark on an enviromental nightmare with our prime minister dictating the signing of Keoto. Thus less oil changes less oil usage as far as cheaper I still can't see it as cheap oil canges and short intervals is short sighted. Mr. Fleming's oppinion is respected, unfortunately there are overtones of mistrust towards Amsoil's marketing technique and I will bow to this in agreement. However being directly involved with the technology allows me to see in reality how we all must change our dirty ways of disposable everything and that some of this newfangled stuff is with some education worthy of merit. My truck gets oil at 25k and comes out at the analysis cleaner than the dino tested at the local dealer, Cummins will never agree with this on paper but they use the same labratory process to prove you wrong. Analysis is clean they know they pay in case of failure,this is even harder on 24v engines as this new environmentally cleaner restrictions produce less contaminants at both the tailpipe and the fluids being drained. Trust me there is nothing more invigourating than watching a 797B (3500 HP V24 ) drag 400 Ton pay load to its destination, this is diesel power at its finest but even these have restrictions and are being tested with synthetics and extended fluid changes for the same reasons. Iam not trying to breed hostility but redirect negativity towards positive change with documented researched facts,bombers are living proof that even with new technology we can have some fun. PK

 

[mimprevento]

Mobil One or Red LIne in Diesels?

I am a great fan of both and have used them in Corvettes, Firebirds, BMWS, Mercedes and any high performance gasser but I didn't think they had an oil rated for diesel service which requires different properties. That is why I put Mobil 1 in the Tahoe and my wifes Volvo turbo wagon but Premium Blue extreme in the CTD. If these oils are available in a CH,CI rating I want to know because I have had outstanding service from them. Mobil 1 is in the factory crankcases of the best in the world and is a "true" synthetic. Let me know all oil professors out there.

 

[Pit Bull]

Re: Mobil One or Red LIne in Diesels?

Originally posted by mimprevento

I am a great fan of both and have used them in Corvettes, Firebirds, BMWS, Mercedes and any high performance gasser but I didn't think they had an oil rated for diesel service which requires different properties. That is why I put Mobil 1 in the Tahoe and my wifes Volvo turbo wagon but Premium Blue extreme in the CTD. If these oils are available in a CH,CI rating I want to know because I have had outstanding service from them. Mobil 1 is in the factory crankcases of the best in the world and is a "true" synthetic. Let me know all oil professors out there.

Devlac 1 synthetic, it's the Mobil1 of diesel oil, made by Mobil. It's expensive and comes in 5w40 weight and is CH rated, now may even be CI rated. I've looked at all of the synthetics and for my truck how I drive and where I live and the $$'s I will stay with dino Rotella T 15w40 and plug my truck in when it gets below 40 degrees. I will use the synthetics in the differentials and transfer case. It came in my 6 speed.

Good Luck

 

[stumphumper]

Im on the synthetic side. Good pour rate in cold weather, High temp (400+) break down temp, and it will keep your insides very clean and lubed. I know the qt. price is higher but you will save $ with the extra filtration and extended oil changes. I did not trust it, at first, so I sent out oil sample tests every six months for three years! I became an Amsoil dealer because they have been into synthetics the longest and now I buy their products at dealers cost! My 2 cents.

 

[JCyrbok]

Holy Cow!

Sorry all for being the one to toss the match in the powder keg with this one! Alot of great info and I feel that I will beable to make a very well informed choice at my next oil change. I'd tell you all what I have come up with but fear that it would be another match and powder keg! LMAO just kidding! Where else can so many people with the same "love" come together and agree or disagree and still come out being "friends" after it all.



Thanks again for all of the great info and keep it coming!



J-



PS I think that for what I am looking to do, synthetic will be the choice for me.

 

[Hohn]

Redline 10W-30 is also CH-4 rated

Upon further consideration, I have decided to stick with the Rosmella until at least 20K. I am just going to trust you all (and Cummins) on that.



I still think the Redline is the best out there. I was once an enlisted AF mechanic, and can tell you that only the base stocks REDLINE uses will lube a 40,000 RPM jet engine. Anything else will choke up. The USAF pays big money for the tubine engine oil with these base stocks.



Think about that in a turbocharger that can spin up to 100K rpm.



BTW-- Not only is the 15W-40 Redline Diesel oil rated CH-4, but their 10W-30 is also rated CH-4. Both have pour points below -45°F. The 10W-30 might be a way to pick up some fuel economy.....

 

[bmaxey]

Originally posted by JCyrbok

At my next oil change I will have over 20K and feel its more than safe to change to Synthetic oil. My question is, is it worth the money to change to synthetic or stay with a good quality dino. I'm looking more for longevity,reliability and mileage in my truck that a longer change interval. I also have some minor concerns over that fact that I only live about 5 miles from work and know that short trips can have adverse effects, and wondered if synthetic may help in that area. Today it was about 40degrees on the way home and with my winter fronts on got just about to normal op temp.



Also there are so many choices out there that my head spins reading about it all. What is everyone else using. I respect the opinion of the Membership alot more then that of the oil and advertising companys. Let me know what u use, synthetic or dino, brand and weight.



I live in SE Michigan so it does get pretty cold her in the winters and hot in the summers



Thanks again



I am new the Diesel world but my experience with turbos is that they run very hot will coke the oil jet if not cooled properly before shutdown. My turbo 280ZX turbo failed at 30K miles, it was repaired and has run on synthetic oil another 70+K with no problems. All turbine engine manufactures reqire synthetic oil for that same reason.

I vote for synthetic.

J-

 

[Pit Bull]

Any of you old timers with a lot of miles on your CTD's ever have a coking problem or any other problem with your turbo's running dino juice??

 

[fest3er]

Originally posted by Pit Bull
Any of you old timers with a lot of miles on your CTD's ever have a coking problem or any other problem with your turbo's running dino juice??

Since you ask, yes, I did. I'd had an EGT gauge on my truck since around 10K miles, and always cooled the EGT to about 300 before shutting it down. And I had the delaer run Sched A maintenance at 5K mile intervals.

By the time I reached 60K miles, the turbo would stick after starting cold. like sitting at work for 10 hours on a cool day. I'd put it in gear, hit the go pedal and immediately reach the breakover point (12V). It would take 100 feet or so for the turbo to start spinning.

I switched to Amsoil at 63K miles. I still cool the EGT to 300 before shutting down. The sticking turbo problem vanished and has not returned. I presently have 120K miles on the truck.

Fest3er

 

[Pit Bull]

Originally posted by fest3er

Since you ask, yes, I did. I'd had an EGT gauge on my truck since around 10K miles, and always cooled the EGT to about 300 before shutting it down. And I had the delaer run Sched A maintenance at 5K mile intervals.



By the time I reached 60K miles, the turbo would stick after starting cold. like sitting at work for 10 hours on a cool day. I'd put it in gear, hit the go pedal and immediately reach the breakover point (12V). It would take 100 feet or so for the turbo to start spinning.



I switched to Amsoil at 63K miles. I still cool the EGT to 300 before shutting down. The sticking turbo problem vanished and has not returned. I presently have 120K miles on the truck.



Fest3er

Fest3er, this is the first good reason I have heard for switching to synthetic This even makes sense for a Turbo charged engine!!! Now I can not switch until I have 20K miles on my truck but it does make sense.

 

[amsoilman]

I started using the (AME) 15W-40 Synthetic oil in my 94'CTD when it had 8,000 miles on it. I had installed the by-pass oil filtration system as well, so I ran this oil (with Oil Analysis) until the truck had 105,000 on it, then I switched to (HDD)5W-30 oil and installed the "Single Mount" by-pass filtration system at that time, due to continual "seeping" problems on the duel-remote. The truck was recently sold to a fellow TDR member, and the HDD 5W-30 oil was still in it. I NEVER EVER experienced any turbo or engine problems.







Wayne

amsoilman

 

[Pit Bull]

Anybody else ever have any turbo problems caused by running dino oil and not cooling down long enough?

 

[CROW]

Never used synthetic motor oils and have always had the idea they were best suited for extreme conditions whether that be cold, heat or a performance engine. However, in the situation described above, I would use a synthetic (Delvac I would be my choice) due to the extreme cold and the fact these motors seem to take a long time to get to operating temperature. Think more of us will eventually consider the use of synthetics since Shell, Valvoline and probably others are selling the Group III "synthetics" at about half the cost of Delvac I. Have read where these Group III oils are so close in performance to the Group IV's that there is really no difference. Other stuff indicates they aren't all that great and may have a problem at high temperature. If these Group III synthetics do well in testing (which I will let someone else do) I can see a situation where those of us who would like to use a synthetic, but have no interest in extended drain intervals or paying about $22. 00 for a gallon of oil, will switch over to them. Think it would be interesting to have a place on the TDR dedicated to oil analysis results.

 

[CATCRACKER]

it is rosmella for me. i can get 400,000 using rosmella. why spend more. if i lived where it gets cold i might use syn. but since it never even gets in the 20's here. rosmella will work for me. (buy it in the 5gallon bucket).



i use rosmella for four reasons



1. price

2. proven

3. conveinance

4. warm temps where i live



lets break this down from a cost engineering standpoint.



ex. 85 avg. miles a day x365=31,025 per year, 400K/31025=12. 89 years, that is 133 oil changes @ 3000 miles. (guessing) $30 using smella per oil change=$3990



using syn. price$? but say it cost you 120 per change but changed every 7000 then 57changes @$70=$3990 more than the cost of a rebuild. when using rosmella you don't have to worry about oil analysis



my time is worth $27 per hour lets do the math. to change oil 15 min. $6. 75 worth of time 6. 75x133=897. 75 <$3990+897=$4887 over a 12 year period.







when a chemical plants decide what type of ie. electric motor to buy they do not just run out and get the most efficient motor out there many times it is cheaper to get the less effcient motor. other engineers will understand what i am talking about b/c they had to take an engineering economics class (freakin hard).



bottom line is i change oil and filter every 3K using rotella t b/c the economics are right and i dont mind changing my own oil. dont have to worry about oil analysis jmho



i will get the real $ of oil costs and redo this post later these #'s are all just w. a. gs (wild ass guess's) someone help me with $'s

 

[illflem]

Your numbers are close but to be fair you should at least charge some more labor for oil disposal. I don't know maybe 15-30 minutes per change. Also oil analysis price, average $15, and the price of a mid change filter and make up oil, another $15 plus labor should be added to the synthetic price.



This has been figured out before, don't know if improved fuel economy applies in our case though.



From the book Synthetic Lubricants and High Performance Functional Fluids



"The performance benefits demonstrated by the various tests that have been described are meaningful to the automotive engineer or tribologist, but the average consumer is most interested in how much savings the use of a PAO-based product is going to generate.



This case describes the results of one study that considered both the increased fuel economy and the extended oil drain interval made possible with part- and full-synthetic PAO crankcase oils. The original calculations have been updated to reflect current prices for gasoline and oil in North America. The calculations are based on 15,000 miles of driving and a “do-it-yourself” oil change regimen. A pump price of $1. 20/gal for gasoline has been chosen, and the oil has been priced at $1, $2, and $4/qt for the mineral oil, the part-synthetic, and the full-synthetic, respectively. If the oil is changed every 5,000 miles, there is almost no cost differential for the three oils because of the improved fuel economy gained with the synthetics. For the 15,000 mile distance, the savings over the mineral oil formulation is $3 with the part-synthetic oil, and a deficit of $3 is experienced with the full synthetic. If, however, there is only one drain for the full synthetic, the savings goes up to $11. In Europe, where gasoline is much more expensive and the differential in oil prices is less, the savings accrued by the use of synthetic crankcase oils will be much greater. "

 

[Sled Puller]

Originally posted by CATCRACKER , (me)

I use rosmella for four reasons (I use synthetic for four reasons)



1. price -----(I don't care, it is reaonable for the performance. )

2. proven ----(Amsoil, Mobil, and several others are all proven, for many many miles)

3. conveinance ---(for me, it is most convienant)

4. warm temps where i live----( warm, cold , hot where I live, synthetic shines in all)



(To each his own there, no doubt. )

______________________________________







when a chemical plants decide what type of ie. electric motor to buy they do not just run out and get the most efficient motor out there many times it is cheaper to get the less effcient motor. other engineers will understand what i am talking about b/c they had to take an engineering economics class

________________________________________



(I have seen this first hand. Some companys have a bean counter buying supplys, looking to cut costs at every corner. The maintanence crews have to get dang near into a fist fight to get products. Many, many industrial applications synthetics have proven themselves to be most effective, in cutting costs. )

_____________________________________________



I believe I cannot afford to not run synthetics, doing what I'm doing to this poor truck.

But it is not "wrong" to run any of the Diesel oils listed above. (don't run the gasser oils! )