Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) Take your plate out!!!!!!!

[Cummins Corvette]

origionally posted by Don M



edit- in summary we have learned from the thread:



1) The cam plates need to remain in the pump (Chris Anderson will be shorting himself in power and potentially make himself a 1000 dollar plus repair bill, but that is his choice)

2) The 913 pump is the best to use for performance applications.

3) As the rack travel increases the plunger port closing is advanced to help power unlike the flat top plungers in the other pumps that are static.

4) The marine pump retards the timing with a groove cut into the top of the plunger to delay port closing and fuel delivery until the engine starts. At which time the rack is moved rearward for normal timing. Stock marine engines come with the timng at 18 plus degrees.



Chris Anderson would have us believe none of us learned anything in this thread when in fact it is him that has not learned anything by his insistance to leave the plate out.



Joe D does not hold out info. He has always maintained the 913 is the best pump. Further he has even given a demonstration of the pin and the damage that could occur for all to see if the cam plate is removed.

I object to you saying that I think we haven't learned anything. That is a bogus comment Don; I think you don't like anyone with a different point of view.



I DID NOT LOOSE POWER when I took my plate out. I had a total of 48 pounds of boost before AND AFTER I took it out.



No one has posted the picture (proof) that no plate will hurt anything. I respect Joe and appreciate his comments on this forum, but there I still see no reason that running without a plate is detrimental.



I agree that the 913 is probably very good for high performance applications, but not because of that groove. IMO that is there for emissions reasons as stated in my last post. The thing that sets the 913 apart is the angle of the helix. It is steeper so it injects more fuel than other pumps (i. e. 180 and 160 pumps) for equal amounts of rack travel. That is what makes it special: it can inject more fuel.



While that groove retards INJECTION timing, it also ADVANCES FILL TIMING and gives more fill duration, giving it better high-rpm characteristics.

:-{}

 

[Don M]

Originally posted by Cummins Corvette

This is an EXCELLENT discussion. Thanks very much to Strick-9 and Don.



I am with Strick-9 on the advance theory though. The protrusions on the side would advance the timing by CLOSING the spill/fill port sooner when the plunger is on its way up to create the injection pressure. According to the picture that Don posted (thanks much Don!!) the spill/fill port would get closed SOONER at low rack travel and in the VERY LAST LITTLE TINY BIT of rack travel. But if you rotated the plunger that far the spill port would only be partially uncovered when the helix finally uncovers it. It would look kind of like a crescent or sorts.



So according to what I picked up from the picture of the plunger, the timing should be advanced at low rack and EXTREMELY high rack, and retarded in the midrange.



Keep in mind that the port closure by the top of the plunger not only effects timing; it also affects the AMOUNT injected. As the plunger is first rotated to the point where it closes the spill/fill port in the groove, it is loosing some of the travel in which it creates the pressure necessary to inject fuel.



The amount of fuel injected (at any point in the plunger’s rotation) is determined in part by the distance from the top of the plunger (where the port is closed) to the helix (where the port is opened again). So when the plunger is rotated to match the port up with that groove it is not only retarding timing, but is also reducing the amount of fuel injected by the depth of that groove times the square area of the plunger. This is partially compensated by further delaying the opening of the port by the helix.



I know that was kind of off the subject, but I thought that it was necessary to bring up that it is not only TIMING that is affected by that groove, but also AMOUNT OF FUEL.



I agree with Strick-9. That groove would RETARD timing at high rack travel (except for that last little bit just before the plunger runs off the helix entirely).



I think that Don is right in that the groove was put there for emissions reasons. To retard the timing at higher power levels, not to advance it. This is a topic that HAS been hashed out. When the timing is advanced, the power goes up, the egt goes down, and the NOX GOES UP because the maximum combustion temps also go up.



That groove was put there to retard the timing to help emissions. The reason the 913 makes more power is because the helix is steeper, allowing for more injection duration.

Anderson,



OMG, you have got to be kidding me. After looking at the plunger picture you think the protrusion retards timing with more rack travel? Maybe you dont understand which direction the plunger turns? It turns toward the protrusion or advance area of the plunger with more rack travel. Looking at my picture the plunger would turn toward the right or toward the portion of the helix that is cut lowest on the side wall.

This is apparent if you just look at the helix. The cut is lower on the side wall of the plunger hence the spill or port opening is delayed. This is in the same relation to the advance on the top of the plunger.



I hope you dont think Chris Strickland still believes the timing of fuel delivery is retarded with more rack travel. Its no more true than a cow can fly.



Your timing theory above is wrongo if you consider all operating ranges. Also I never said the groove was there for emissions. I said the protrusion is/was there for emissions or advancing the timing during more rack travel to lower cylinder temps. Higher cylinder temps that can come from increased fuel delivery will increase the oxidation of nitrogen molecules. Hence NOX levels go up. Fuel econonmy will be increased as well. Bosch was not building a hot rod pump for us. Joe just figured out the benefits of the pump and why. He also told everyone why they are best suited for performance when he wrote the 913 had some built in advance. While he did not go into detail like I have he did say it.





DUDE!!!! You have me wondering here.



Don~

 

[Don M]

Originally posted by Cummins Corvette





I object to you saying that I think we haven't learned anything. That is a bogus comment Don; I think you don't like anyone with a different point of view.



I DID NOT LOOSE POWER when I took my plate out. I had a total of 48 pounds of boost before AND AFTER I took it out.



No one has posted the picture (proof) that no plate will hurt anything. I respect Joe and appreciate his comments on this forum, but there I still see no reason that running without a plate is detrimental.



I agree that the 913 is probably very good for high performance applications, but not because of that groove. IMO that is there for emissions reasons as stated in my last post. The thing that sets the 913 apart is the angle of the helix. It is steeper so it injects more fuel than other pumps (i. e. 180 and 160 pumps) for equal amounts of rack travel. That is what makes it special: it can inject more fuel.



While that groove retards INJECTION timing, it also ADVANCES FILL TIMING and gives more fill duration, giving it better high-rpm characteristics.

:-{}

Anderson, you got it wrong again in as many posts. Slow down a tad and listen.



1) The timing is advanced with rack travel in the 913 plunger design.

2) The groove is not primarily for emissions. The protrusion is more likely for this.

3) Your last statement is wrong on the whole. Partially correct in that the fill time my be increased by microseconds but not enough to really count.

4) Removing the cam plate is a stupid idea and should be done for quick diagnosis of the pump only.

5) Pictures are so far not doing you much good. You cant see the advance built into the plunger so what makes you think you can see the problem with the pin? That picture would be far more complex to understand than a single plunger.

6) You said earlier that I should butt out and that you were trying to learn something. My problem was the facts were being distorted and the true nature of the plungers mission was being told incorrectly. Mis info is BS.

7) You dont know if you lost power or not unless you dynoed, but you can loose the pump if you continue to be so hard headed and run without a plate.

8) Its not that I dont like anyone with a differing opinion, its that I dont like mis-info and BS being spread around.



Don~

 

[Strick-9]

Don,



The timing IS retarded as fuel increases. You seem to be only looking at the lowest portion of the groove and thinking that fueling begins there.



It begins way before that. It begins in the advanced portion travels through the retarded portion and never reaches the second advanced portion completely.



Have you noticed how 24v's idle with more injection knock than 12v's. Maybe the timing needs to be advanced at idle and retarded as fueling increases.



Oh wait, that's what our pumps do too.



Don, don't dig too big of a hole with comments like "cows can fly. "



One of us is going to learn here. And that should be our primary goal.

Answer my questions and I'll answer yours if you ever ask any and we'll get through this and find the truth.

-Chris

 

[Cummins Corvette]

Ok... ... ... you're right and I'm wrong. Happy now?

 

[Don M]

Originally posted by Strick-9

Don,



The timing IS retarded as fuel increases. You seem to be only looking at the lowest portion of the groove and thinking that fueling begins there.



It begins way before that. It begins in the advanced portion travels through the retarded portion and never reaches the second advanced portion completely.



Have you noticed how 24v's idle with more injection knock than 12v's. Maybe the timing needs to be advanced at idle and retarded as fueling increases.



Oh wait, that's what our pumps do too.



Don, don't dig too big of a hole with comments like "cows can fly. "



One of us is going to learn here. And that should be our primary goal.

Answer my questions and I'll answer yours if you ever ask any and we'll get through this and find the truth.

-Chris

Chris,



Your kidding right? Right? The plunger picture I showed you rotates to the right with rack travel forward. To the right is also toward the portion of the helix that gives more fuel or delays the port opening to dump fuel back to the rail or gallery.

To the right is where the advance is starting to advance the port closure. Thus giving the fuel at a earlier time and increasing the time the fuel flows.

DUDE! Did you sleep last night?



I will take some beter photos for ya if I need to.



Don~

 

[Don M]

Originally posted by Cummins Corvette

Ok... ... ... you're right and I'm wrong. Happy now?

Chris, It has nothing to do with being right or wrong. I dont care if I am right personally or not. I just wanted to show you guys where you were wrong. Its not a battle of wits. I just want you to understand that is all and not have others led the wrong direction.



Don~

 

[Cummins Corvette]

Originally posted by Don M





DUDE!!!! You have me wondering here.



Don~

Originally posted by Don M





Chris,



Your kidding right? Right?

DUDE! Did you sleep last night?



Don~

Don- you're right. The rest of the world has their heads up their ***.

 

[Cummins Corvette]

Don- I can totally see what you're talking about, ok? It the VERY LAST portion of plunger rotation, just before you go off the helix entirely, the port should be closed slightly earlier. But man, come on, who ever uses that very last part of the helix? At that point part of the port will never even be opened to the helix.

 

[Don M]

Originally posted by Cummins Corvette









Don- you're right. The rest of the world has their heads up their ***.

Sorry Chris, Im getting a little frustrated thats all. The internet is not a great place to discuss this kinda stuff and I have limited abilty to write technically. I will draw the plunger in AutoCAD and post the screen capture to help make things easier to see.





Don~

 

[Cummins Corvette]

Ya'all can call me if you want to. 801 556-8082 I really suck at typing anyway.

 

[Strick-9]

Don,



You're only seeing a small part of what's going on. I know you've been told there is advance and you are trying desperately to hold on to that dream. You've been mislead.



I don't need another explanation of what port closure and port opening is. You've stated it several times, Joe came on to describe it again, and Chris Anderson summed it up as well. Let's move on to greater detail now.



Let's get beyond the kid's stuff.



Answer these questions directly please.



1. At a constant throttle position, what happens to the rack as rpm is brought down? What happens to the rack as rpm is increased. (What direction does it move?)



2. Let's take Joe for example. He said he's getting SOME of the advance. If he slides his plate back does he get NONE of the advance?



3. Would a stock truck reach this advanced portion when Joe's pump doesn't?



4. Describe as best you can where you think the fill port is on the plunger while the truck is idling.



5. Describe where the fill port is on a stock truck under maximum fueling.



If you have any questions that you think I'm not grasping, fire away.



-Chris

 

[Strick-9]

Don,



Don't bother with the AutoCAD. It's not really going to help.



I was considering taking your picture and putting a white dot or line where the fill port is during different throttle positions. That would be a lot simpler.



-Chris

 

[Cummins Corvette]

In a stock manual truck (215 hp) it retards the timing at full fueling for emissions reasons. JMHO

 

[Don M]

Originally posted by Strick-9

Don,



You're only seeing a small part of what's going on. BS I AM, YOU ARE.



I know you've been told there is advance and you are trying desperately to hold on to that dream. CHRIS ITS FACT BUDDY NOT A DREAM. GET YOURSELF SOME SLEEP!



You've been mislead. BY WHOM? IM TALKING TO NO ONE ABOUT THIS.

I don't need another explanation of what port closure and port opening is. You've stated it several times, Joe came on to describe it again, and Chris Anderson summed it up as well. Let's move on to greater detail now.



Let's get beyond the kid's stuff. REALLY CHRIS!



Answer these questions directly please.



1. At a constant throttle position, what happens to the rack as rpm is brought down? What happens to the rack as rpm is increased. (What direction does it move?) YOUR GETTING INTO THINGS THAT ARE ONLY GOING TO MAKE IT MORE DIFFICULT TO EXPLAIN. LOOK A THE PLUNGERS HELIX AND THE ADVANCE PROTRUSION FOR YOUR ANSWER.



2. Let's take Joe for example. He said he's getting SOME of the advance. If he slides his plate back does he get NONE of the advance? CHRIS YOUR TRYING TO LOK AT THE THING TOO CLOSELY



3. Would a stock truck reach this advanced portion when Joe's pump doesn't? CHRIS IF A STOCK ENGINE WOULD NOT GET SOME BENEFIT OF THE BUILT IN ADVANCE THE DAMN THING WOULD NOT BE BUILT IN FROM THE GET GO. THE ADVANCE IS THERE FOR A REASON. NOT FOR THE GUYS WHO DECIDED TO INCREASE RACK TRAVEL AND HOT ROD



4. Describe as best you can where you think the fill port is on the plunger while the truck is idling. CHRIS THE FILL PORT IS NOT ON THE PLUNGER AT ALL. ITS IN THE BARREL. YOU ARE SO CONFUSED BECAUSE YOU DONT KNOW THE PROPER NAME FOR WHAT PARTS.



5. Describe where the fill port is on a stock truck under maximum fueling. THE FILL PORT DOES NOT MOVE. THE PLUNGER DOES. THE FILL PORT IS IN THE BARREL AND IS IN A CONSTANT POSITION.



If you have any questions that you think I'm not grasping, fire away.

CHRIS, THE SPILL/FILL PORT IS ON THE SIDES OF THE BARREL. NOT IN THE PLUNGER. THE HELIX IS ON THE PLUNGER SIDE WALL. THE SPILL/FILL PORT DOES NOT CHANGE LOCATION. THE PLUNGER HELIX DOES DURING RACK MOVEMENT WHICH ROTATES THE PLUNGER.



-Chris

Chris Anderson,



Under full throttle and rack position forward the advance is coming in not the opposite. Basic knowledge of how the pump works is the guide here.



Don~

 

[Don M]

Here is a link to the AutoCAd drawing of the plunger.

Please look at the relation of the advance protrusion in relation to the helix on the plunger.





https://www.turbodieselregister.com/user_gallery/displayimage.php?&photoid=1386&width=4



Don~

 

[Cummins Corvette]

What we have here is... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... . failure to communicate.



Don- I think you misunderstood Chris's questions. Call me buddy. I hate typing.

 

[illflem]

Seems to me rather than argue about it somebody should buy a Bosch book and study it, this is going nowhere http://www.boschservice.com/http-docs/access/referbks.html#Top click Technical Instruction Booklets

 

[Don M]

Here is one more of the top of the plunger. The protrusion area is shaded in the drawing.



https://www.turbodieselregister.com/user_gallery/displayimage.php?&photoid=1387&width=4





Don~

 

[Don M]

Here is one more showing the spill port to the left side of the plunger advance protrusion during full rack travel.





https://www.turbodieselregister.com/user_gallery/displayimage.php?&photoid=1389&width=4





Don~