well yeah, but if you don't like the results, loosen the crank stub bolts and reclock the tonewheel and tighten it back up. the only time you would really see the mod is if you remove the crank pulley/dampner. and those don't fail all that often. .
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Timing on '05 (sensor ?s)
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well yeah, but if you don't like the results, loosen the crank stub bolts and reclock the tonewheel and tighten it back up. the only time you would really see the mod is if you remove the crank pulley/dampner. and those don't fail all that often. .
While we are on the subject of timing... what about cam timing? Its my understanding the 3rd gens have retarded cam timing also. I remember back in the 80,s when they retarded cam timing on the Ford 460's for emissions.
By using an early year timing gear set, can't remember but I think it was a 429 set and it would put it back to 0 degrees, add power a mpg too!
I wonder if a gear change is possible on the CTD without changing the cam out??
By using an early year timing gear set, can't remember but I think it was a 429 set and it would put it back to 0 degrees, add power a mpg too!
I wonder if a gear change is possible on the CTD without changing the cam out??
rbattelle
TDR MEMBER
I've attached a figure from my favorite book series, The Internal Combustion Engine in Theory and Practice, Volume 2, by Charles Fayette Taylor (page 97). It shows quite conclusively that maximum efficiency occurs with a peak pressure 15 degrees ATC. To achieve that, injection timing was approximately -25 degrees ATC (or 25 degrees BTC).
Taylor goes on to say,
In other words, injection timing from the factory is not adjusted for best power, but rather to limit maximum pressure. Or, in the case of modern engines, to limit exhaust emissions.
I wonder if Cummins would devulge what the design imep/bmep are for these engines (indicated mean effective pressure / brake mean effective pressure)? I think I'll ask them just for curiosity.
-Ryan
P. S. - Actually, that figure was borrowed by Taylor. It actually comes from an NACA paper by Rothrock titled "Combustion in a High-Speed Compression-Ignition Engine", NACA TR 401. NACA tech reports are available here. These are an absolute gold mine... highly recommended, and totally free!
Taylor goes on to say,
In other words, injection timing from the factory is not adjusted for best power, but rather to limit maximum pressure. Or, in the case of modern engines, to limit exhaust emissions.
I wonder if Cummins would devulge what the design imep/bmep are for these engines (indicated mean effective pressure / brake mean effective pressure)? I think I'll ask them just for curiosity.
-Ryan
P. S. - Actually, that figure was borrowed by Taylor. It actually comes from an NACA paper by Rothrock titled "Combustion in a High-Speed Compression-Ignition Engine", NACA TR 401. NACA tech reports are available here. These are an absolute gold mine... highly recommended, and totally free!
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rbattelle
TDR MEMBER
barbwire said:
Well, what Rothrock found was that the best-power injection timing was about 25 degrees BTC, which corresponds to the 409 curve in the figure. BUT, most engine companies will not run their timing there, they'll run it more retarded (maybe 20 degrees BTC or so), which corresponds to curves 403, 405, or 407 of the figure. Going too far advanced or retarded causes detonation.
So what does all this mean? Well, it means that if you advance timing with the Rokk device you're probably going to develop more power and better economy because your peak cylinder pressure will be higher (which means your mean effective pressure, the primary determinant of engine power, will be higher). But the tradeoff is that you are putting more stress on your engine from those higher pressures (and also producing more NOx). How much more stress? I don't know. Will it have any measureable decrease in life? Probably not, but I can't say for sure.
There's absolutely no way for us laymen to determine just what the change in timing does to peak cylinder pressures in this specific engine. The only effective way to do so would be to mount a pressure transducer in the combustion chamber and measure it. I don't have that kind of money, or access to a machine shop that could modify the head for such a purpose. Even if Cummins has that kind of data (they almost certainly do), there's not a chance they'd give it to anyone... proprietary.
After doing this research I don't fear this mod. I'm not going to go buy one (yet), but I wouldn't discourage anyone doing it. Matt400 and JGann are smart guys... they are justified in trusting this mod. The fact that they endorse it should tell you something. My own personal requirements probably just differ slightly from theirs, which is why I haven't placed an order for one (yet).
-Ryan
I am probably a rare one, as I am constantly driving for economy. I very seldom go more than 65-68 mph,( I know I'll get cussed for this statement). And, I do not feel the need to achieve highway speeds in so many seconds. KWIM? Although I pull with my Ram consantly.
I guess what I am trying to say is that the added cylinder pressure is not going to be as much of an issue for myself as it would be for those " rabbit" drivers. I am hoping anyway. Therefore longevity of my engine may not be shortened too much. I hope, I hope, I hope!!!!!!
I guess what I am trying to say is that the added cylinder pressure is not going to be as much of an issue for myself as it would be for those " rabbit" drivers. I am hoping anyway. Therefore longevity of my engine may not be shortened too much. I hope, I hope, I hope!!!!!!
Ryan -- I had a thought. Try to get ahold of one of the folks at Cummins (1-800-diesels) and ask them if they'll answer "off the record" what the ramifications would be if the timing was advanced 1 or 2 degrees on a 3rd gen. I bet they know how these engines are tuned as it relates to fuel delivery and I bet they'd, "off the record" let you know that it's ok to advance it ever so slightly.
You might have to get just the right customer service person at Cummins. I ask them questions now and then about what Dodge does with (to) their engines when they put them in the trucks. I ask them about transmissions, gear ratios and fuel, among other things. About every other time you'll get someone who has no problem with sharing their thoughts but you might have to speak off the record and even in the 3rd person. For instance, "If I were to say that advancing the timing on my 3rd gen by 2 degrees would have a very low probablility of hurting my engine would it be reasonable to interpret that as a true statement. " Between the laughs, you might get some answers.
I only raise this idea in the hopes that it might put you at ease regarding this mod... . Just a thought.
You might have to get just the right customer service person at Cummins. I ask them questions now and then about what Dodge does with (to) their engines when they put them in the trucks. I ask them about transmissions, gear ratios and fuel, among other things. About every other time you'll get someone who has no problem with sharing their thoughts but you might have to speak off the record and even in the 3rd person. For instance, "If I were to say that advancing the timing on my 3rd gen by 2 degrees would have a very low probablility of hurting my engine would it be reasonable to interpret that as a true statement. " Between the laughs, you might get some answers.
I only raise this idea in the hopes that it might put you at ease regarding this mod... . Just a thought.
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I am still on a learning curve since my first Diesel in 03. From my old Hot Rod days with gas engines we always ran as much ignition advance as possible with out ping. Ping or detonation is what will hurt the engine.
I pulled a piston out of a 454 motor home one time that had detonation problems and found the piston top looked like someone took a hammer to it. The gas engines I work on today now have knock sensors that input to the ECM for further retard as a safety measure due to the low octane fuels.
I don't know that I would endorse this particular mod only because I don't know what it is or how he mods the sensor and if it could affect reliability of the sensor. Moving the tone ring actually sounds better, just allot more work so for those that want 2 deg. the easy way this mod sounds good.
On some gas engines that have these sensors we have "sync" the 2 together or you will get check engine lamps and drivability issues. I don't know if the CTD ECM is keeping track of the two that way or not but suspect if so, that 2 degrees is not enough to trip a fault.
I would think that advancing cam timing along with injection timing would get the best results.
I pulled a piston out of a 454 motor home one time that had detonation problems and found the piston top looked like someone took a hammer to it. The gas engines I work on today now have knock sensors that input to the ECM for further retard as a safety measure due to the low octane fuels.
I don't know that I would endorse this particular mod only because I don't know what it is or how he mods the sensor and if it could affect reliability of the sensor. Moving the tone ring actually sounds better, just allot more work so for those that want 2 deg. the easy way this mod sounds good.
On some gas engines that have these sensors we have "sync" the 2 together or you will get check engine lamps and drivability issues. I don't know if the CTD ECM is keeping track of the two that way or not but suspect if so, that 2 degrees is not enough to trip a fault.
I would think that advancing cam timing along with injection timing would get the best results.
Well This is my first post and I can't beleve that this 2 deg is giving you all a hard time. You all line up and buy thoes boxes there are fuel boxes and timing boxes and some of yall stack them together. Do you not think that these Timing boxs only advance the timing on your engine less than 2 deg. I bet you find thay advance the timing 7 to 10 deg and thay run all day long like that. Just my 2 Cents
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Threads like this are fun, they get your mind going which gets you to reading and learning.
Here is an interesting quote for Chevron-
I found it here-
http://www.sasolchevron.com/fuel_performance.htm
Now then... I want some of that GTL fuel!!
Here is an interesting quote for Chevron-
I found it here-
http://www.sasolchevron.com/fuel_performance.htm
Now then... I want some of that GTL fuel!!
rbattelle
TDR MEMBER
Timken500 said:
Not me. I will never run a fueling box because my primary goal in life is longevity.
Matt, you bring up an outstanding point about the discrepancy between the cam position sensor and the CKP when the CKP has been indexed to give additional advance! That never occurred to me, and it gives me a little heartburn. You're probably right about the 2 degree change not being enough to trip a fault in the ECM. BTW I'm sorry if I was inappropriate when I said you endorsed this device. I didn't mean to tie you into it against your will.
JGann, what do you think about this?
I ordered one last night and I'll get a chance to check it out when it arrives.
Right now I'm doing a 85 mile RT commute to work 7 days a week, it's all interstate so it goes quickly. The fuel is running $2. 75 / gallon so work is costing me quite a bit right now. Hopefully this will pick up the mileage and a little low end TQ.
.
Right now I'm doing a 85 mile RT commute to work 7 days a week, it's all interstate so it goes quickly. The fuel is running $2. 75 / gallon so work is costing me quite a bit right now. Hopefully this will pick up the mileage and a little low end TQ.
.
well, another thing you can do is to check your crank sensor tone wheel anyways even with no mods to it. the dowel pin through the hole in the tone wheel isn't a percice fit. there is actually more play than i think should be there. if you get one that is clocked counter-clockwise as far as it can go, you can probably adjust it about 1/4°-1/3° more advanced by pushing it as far clockwise as you can. i definately wouldn't call that a mod, that would be a tune up...
Inj advacing & the ramblings of a happy Dodge Ram 2500 owner....
I agree with whatever Matt says. :-laf
Seriously tho -- I think that the engine is designed to run the the timing advanced from where it is now. I think that it's retarded for emissions purposes. I think that by advancing it slightly, it will move the injection timing closer to the "sweet spot" that Cummins intended. This engine is bulletproof and this isn't even a blip on the radar. There are 10000000 HP dragsters running biodiesel with otherwise stock ISB engines. The bottom end on these engines is so strong by comparison to the Ferd or Isuzu that you can't even compare them. This is a tracter engine dropped in a light truck and sold to the general public. It's indestructable. It's like superman.
Back to reality... .
I do have another theory. It's really cool. Wanna hear it? I think that burning fuel so late in the power stroke adds to the soot buildup in the oil on the 3rd gens. I also suspect that by burning more of the fuel earlier in the power stroke (sorry, I know that's a bad word -- Ferd hijacked it -- not my fault) will reduce the amount of soot in the oil. Just a private theory of mine I'm going to test with a fresh oil change right after putting in my timing advance sensor gadget. But then again -- I'm running B95 (a whole nother discussion, I know) and I have just about no soot anyway. I can't wait to monitor my oil after my next change to see how fast it turns black.
About the cam timing. I don't no nothing about tweaking no cam timing. "What'cha tawk'n about Willis?" All I know is that people are reporting a tangible increase in efficiency by simplying moving the injection timing up slightly in the relation to everything else staying the same. It makes sense -- more fuel for the power stroke and less fuel for burning off emissions to satisfy EPA. Retarding the timing to reduce emissions is a novel idea and has allowed the avoidance of doing EGR, but it's not an efficient idea. Lastly, NOx levels can be greatly reduced by using PowerServices's Diesel Kleen if people feel bad about polluting. Not a bad thing to do anyway.
The other thing is that if the quality of the part sucks, that's ok -- it's an easy swap. If the truck does strange stuff, that's ok -- it's an easy swap. If you get tired of more power and better fuel economy, that's ok -- it's an easy swap. And -- it's under $100 and you don't have to junk up your truck with all the other performance crap or send off any red flags to the dealer when you go in for service.
The best solution would be for someone to make a downloader that lets you just plug it into the OBD II port, select from a menu of drop downs all the timing parameters, change whatever you want then save your settings. That would be really wicked cool. Then we don't have to bolt epoxy-modified sensor gadgets to our trucks. But that will never happen because they don't want 2000 hp hungry yahoo's blowing up their tracter engines in their Dodge's and then suing them.
What were we talking about? Oh yea. Biodiesel. B95. It's the wave of the future! The "HECK WITH OPEC. " Support our farmers! Support our economy! Take away OPEC's leverage and power over our economy! Stop them from funneling our hard earned American $$$ spent on their oil out the back door to terrorists who hate us and and our way of life!!!!!
That wasn't what we were talking about? Wrong thread? Sorry about that.
RokkTech!!! I need my epoxy'd timing gadget!!!! I neeeeeed it now!!!!!
rbattelle said:
I agree with whatever Matt says. :-laf
Seriously tho -- I think that the engine is designed to run the the timing advanced from where it is now. I think that it's retarded for emissions purposes. I think that by advancing it slightly, it will move the injection timing closer to the "sweet spot" that Cummins intended. This engine is bulletproof and this isn't even a blip on the radar. There are 10000000 HP dragsters running biodiesel with otherwise stock ISB engines. The bottom end on these engines is so strong by comparison to the Ferd or Isuzu that you can't even compare them. This is a tracter engine dropped in a light truck and sold to the general public. It's indestructable. It's like superman.
Back to reality... .
I do have another theory. It's really cool. Wanna hear it? I think that burning fuel so late in the power stroke adds to the soot buildup in the oil on the 3rd gens. I also suspect that by burning more of the fuel earlier in the power stroke (sorry, I know that's a bad word -- Ferd hijacked it -- not my fault) will reduce the amount of soot in the oil. Just a private theory of mine I'm going to test with a fresh oil change right after putting in my timing advance sensor gadget. But then again -- I'm running B95 (a whole nother discussion, I know) and I have just about no soot anyway. I can't wait to monitor my oil after my next change to see how fast it turns black.
About the cam timing. I don't no nothing about tweaking no cam timing. "What'cha tawk'n about Willis?" All I know is that people are reporting a tangible increase in efficiency by simplying moving the injection timing up slightly in the relation to everything else staying the same. It makes sense -- more fuel for the power stroke and less fuel for burning off emissions to satisfy EPA. Retarding the timing to reduce emissions is a novel idea and has allowed the avoidance of doing EGR, but it's not an efficient idea. Lastly, NOx levels can be greatly reduced by using PowerServices's Diesel Kleen if people feel bad about polluting. Not a bad thing to do anyway.
The other thing is that if the quality of the part sucks, that's ok -- it's an easy swap. If the truck does strange stuff, that's ok -- it's an easy swap. If you get tired of more power and better fuel economy, that's ok -- it's an easy swap. And -- it's under $100 and you don't have to junk up your truck with all the other performance crap or send off any red flags to the dealer when you go in for service.
The best solution would be for someone to make a downloader that lets you just plug it into the OBD II port, select from a menu of drop downs all the timing parameters, change whatever you want then save your settings. That would be really wicked cool. Then we don't have to bolt epoxy-modified sensor gadgets to our trucks. But that will never happen because they don't want 2000 hp hungry yahoo's blowing up their tracter engines in their Dodge's and then suing them.
What were we talking about? Oh yea. Biodiesel. B95. It's the wave of the future! The "HECK WITH OPEC. " Support our farmers! Support our economy! Take away OPEC's leverage and power over our economy! Stop them from funneling our hard earned American $$$ spent on their oil out the back door to terrorists who hate us and and our way of life!!!!!
That wasn't what we were talking about? Wrong thread? Sorry about that.
RokkTech!!! I need my epoxy'd timing gadget!!!! I neeeeeed it now!!!!!
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rbattelle said:
After searching here for about 1/2 hour (slow day at the office... ), I found where I read it:
http://dieselram.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=29;t=003837;p=2#000035
-Dude
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