Torque Converter

[SlyBones]

Well I just got done reading the article #34, pg 118 and I still dont get your point. I see where Mr. Holmes talks about construction quality, then the shift kit, then the transmission tech to do the work, then about amsoil ATF, then about how tight it feels, then gives a test condition where at a given speed, boost level, load, etc he flips between lockup and unlocked and measured the RPM change. Then uses that to calculate that at those test conditions the TC unlocked is 92% efficient. -- I dont see anywhere where he talks about running WOT at 100% lockup or any of this other stuff.



Giving him the benifit of the doubt, I will say that this sounds like SunCoast has made a nice and efficient TC. One worthy of consideration.



I think the point that people are trying to get across is that appling huge amounts of power to a fully locked up TC, especially low RPMs is not going to help your TC live a long and healthy life. The original TC lockup clucthes where made for cruising to give better fuel economy. They were never designed to handle power. This is why the ECM in these things does not even lock the TC until overdrive. Because its for crusing and economy.



Even though DTT, SunCoasts, and other lockup clutches are much stronger that stock, they are still no match for the power of the cummins. If full size clutch in a manual transmission, even some after market ones, cant live up to this kind of power, then how to you expect these much smaller TC lockup clutches to last. At least Bill has the balls to tell you it wont last, and does not try to fool you into thinking it will.



And finally the other point is that with a nice and efficent TC like this 92% SunCoast in the article, you dont need to have lockup to get power to the ground and go. If anything when I read Mr. Homes article I think that is what impresses him is how well it operates unlocked. " opposed to the traditional lots of engine revs but not a whole lotta go". I really think that his point. I dont see anywhere where he states the best use of the TC is to hurry up and get into lockup. Or the fact is says locked at WOT.

 

[BRoth]

Just about missed out!

Hey fellas this thread would not be complete with out hearing from BD.



I'm sure it was said in the many excellent posts. But just to add some fuel we measured the difference between lock up and non lock up on the dyno on BD Dyno day. One of the trucks would not stay in lock up because of the "smart" method of keeping it unlocked.



Bill K your dreamin that your clutch & cover is the same league as our double clutch. Your stator is close though.



brian@bd

 

[Bill Kondolay]

Dennis,



You may have heard this about me, i am not always politically correct and there are no grey areas with me.

Its either black or white, right or wrong.



Keeping that in mind, have i made mistakes along the way? yes, Do i know everything? No.



The meaning of experience to me is someone that has made mistakes and learned from them.



I have been a transmission builder for over 20 years, i have a lot of experience.



OK, having read your references i think i have a better idea of where you are comming from.



Lets start with Chip Fisher, i have personally dealt with his slipping suncoast converters, including the one in his own truck.

That one at the time i was trying to help him with was slipping even at 150 psi, and he at time had only had 375 hp.



Now if he told you he has sold over 200 tc's without a single failure, HE IS LYING to you.



See what you may not know is he had the opportunity to debate me regarding his Suncoast TC at May Madness 2001. Funny this is after telling everyone there he would, when it came time to step up to the plate, he disappeared.



I have also talked with Jeff at Southern Truck parts, he to was having problems with Suncoast.



Now whether you choose to believe me or not is up to you.



Regarding the # 34 TDR article, at May Madness , John Homes and i did discuss doing an article on our product line.



However i made it a conditional offer, John would have to come to Canada for me to do the work , he would have to pay for his own fuel, hotel expenses and meals. I refused to give my product line to him to have installed at Carson City Dodge.



John is a technical writer, doing articles on products he receives at no cost to him for his truck or his wife's truck as it applies to the articles being written. Now dont get me wrong , i am not saying he's not a nice guy,but he has a responsibility to the guys he is receiving product from to do a complementary article.



With my deal the way i wanted it done , it would have cost money and time. To each his own.



As for the lock up clutch and its holding capacity, many factors come into play, line pressure, engine rpms, and yes fluid, atf.



Simply switching from atf +4 to type F will give you extra holding capacity. That is a well know transmission trick.

But it comes at a price. Firmer shifts, possible tc clutch chatter, higher transmission temperatures.



The jump from fluid coupling to lockup can generate temps as high as 1500degrees, now because we have cut that down to a minimum, we dont require the greater heat sinks(bigger front covers) required by Suncoast, BD, and Dunrite.



Why is it that when a standard clutch slips that guys dont run out and buy a bigger flywheel?



Why is the latest technology comming out of the standard boys

less friction material and greater holding capacity?(stronger pressure plates)



The point is, all lock up clutches in the automatics slip, think about this for a minute, if there is no slippage in the automatics, you would end up with a lot of parts breakage.



That is one of the primary reasons we dont lock up the our tc under hard excelleration, the fluid coupling will absorb the shifts.

This way you dont have the transmission clutch slippage, tc clutch slippage and broken parts.



Now if you were to force your tc to stay locked up something has to give. The question is what?



Think about this, if you try to continously shift a standard transmission without the clutch under hard excelleraton, would you have any broken parts?



Dennis , i am very glad for you that you were well treated and you are happy with your choice. You are fortunate, i get the guys that are left on their own and are not happy, believe what you will about this whole thing, i will not lie to anyone to get their money.



Had this been my way or intention i would have had smoker's money, i did not fee it was in his best interest to use our tc for his application and i told him so.

 

[Bill Kondolay]

Brian,



I sincerely hope you are not winking at me because this is not a joke, i have 3 of your miracle double disc customers in dire straights right now denied warranty, these are real people out in the cold. Let me guess , this is the first you have heard of this again ? right?



How about the one i replaced, i had to replace for Randy's Offroad service out of Marysville WA, it was slipping so bad the customer barely made it to our shop.



How about all the glue comming off the linings, did you fix that problem.



Did Mike Crossley ever get his money back , How about Dennis Cochrane? How about Bill Cooke? these are the ones just off the top of my head . These were the torque loc victims, remember them, i realize big companies take time to process warranty paperwork , wasnt that a year ago?



This is not about bragging rights, these are real people , real money spent and trust.



Let me say this very clearly so there is no mis-understanding by anyone.



I dont ever want to be in your league.

 

[BFC]

Maybe one day Mr. Kondolay will tell us how he really feels



DTT it will be, now more than ever.



Glenn

 

[John]

very interesting thread indeed!

I know one thing Dennis, NO SunCoast TC on this planet compares to my DTT 93% TC!!!! The extreme efficiency of the complete line of DTT TCs is second to none in power transmission when in fluid coupling!!!! When the TCC is locked up all TCs perform the same... in that they transmit 100% of the power. Also, if you have a 350+ HP Cummins ahead of a locked up SunCoast TC, towing an 8k+ trailer up a 7% grade at WOT (below 2000 rpm), YOU WILL SHRED the TCC IN VERY SHORT ORDER!!!!



I also know this Brian (Roth), the stator in your new X converter is an improvement over the crap you were marketing but it is not in the same league as DTTs steel stator. BTW, I have heard of other incidents of X converter failure (excluding the one Bill cited earlier).



I guess you have to ask yourself... why does DTT dominate TC sales (of customers in the know)? The answer is simple, DTT designed and sells a superior product line to what is currently in the marketplace and backs it 100% with a no BS warranty. Bill as well as all the fine people that make up DTT are very straight forward, have the highest ethics and WILL NOT recommend something for your truck that doesn't work.

 

[Archive]

Bill Kondalay,



So what you are saying about the article in the TDR by John Holmes is that he has to say something good about Suncoast?

. Does that mean that if their is ever an article written up about DTT, we can all safely assume that they don't really like your product they just have to say something good about it . As you will find also I also live in the same Black and White world.

PS. I have Spoke to Chip Fisher of Blue Chip Performance on several occasions and I don't think it is correct in saying he is lying. He has gone above the norm to help me out.



John,

Glad you are happy with your TC. That's what it is all about, I feel the exact same way about mine



Dennis

 

[LaserBob]

Wow, You have them warmed up now.



Hey you guys, just go drive the DTT setup. "You can feel it when you drive. "



Bob Berends

 

[azgearpro]

I think of it this way, when I started bombing my rig I researched and researched to find the best products for my truck. The reason I researched so much is I dont like being broke down, and have been taken for a ride a few times to say the least.

The results are this, If you want a good transmission that is good quality and you dont mind settling for second best buy a suncoast or x-box(or x-something, I cant remember,bd stuff), but if youdont want to settle for second best and want the best possible product on the market you should purchase the DTT.

I am in aerospace manufacturing and only the best will do, there is no room for second best, so I have learned to think this way.

As far as backing your product, I have delt with alot of different people and there product, and I am here to tell you Bill K. is one hell of a guy, he may talk the talk, but he also walks the walk.



Its like my old grand dad said, you cant fix stupid

 

[BRoth]

In your camp

Hey all you DTT supporters did you ever think that there is another world out there?



Our world has changed with our new 7x convertor, every one is referring to our old out sourced technology. When we brought the manufacturing inside our doors we did have some (6) problems that we have taken care of.



The lock up clutch is a challenge, most people have choosen to not use it because they could not meet the challenge, we stepped up and developed product.



None of you fellas have our product how can you be experts on it.



I see many of you feel very strongly about posting the way you see, but is it necessary to attack others on how they see it?



If that is the case you will never see the full picture.



Bill stop throwing rocks, I nor any of the others that you refer to have not thrown any discredits at you, you are not perfect Build your business on your own strenght not others weakness's.



brian@bd-power

 

[azgearpro]

mo money! mo money!

THats the deal aint it BD, afraid to get knocked off your horse. Just because you have some nice advertising dont mean you have the product.

I dont have your product because I demand the best, and I settle for no less.

 

[Archive]

azgearpro,

I agree with your Grand Father, you just can't fix it



Bill,

We are all awaiting your Ford Converter that will be out the end of

November. Without having seen it I was wondering if we can count on a few things for

sure.



(1) It will not have a billet cover similar to the Sun Coast cover like the

one that the company who builds the DTT torque converter(TCS in Langley BC)

purchased from Sun Coast Converters in June.



(2) It will not have a larger than factory lock up clutch since your

converters are so efficient that lock up capacity is not a concern.



(3) It will have a steel similar to the one that TCS www.tcsproducts.com

designed and used long before DTT. I was just curious what to tell the Ford Guys when they ask.



"cumminsaholic" Sun Coast is receptive to head to head competition anytime. Just give Ron or Joe at Suncoast a call at 1-800-868-0053 to setup an appointment.



Dennis

 

[azgearpro]

cover

Ok dperry1, what is the deal with the Billet cover? Do you have any Idea what Billet means, and what 4340 material even consists of, is it Heat treated and if it is at what R/C? THe strength of the convertor does not come from the cover, that is like saying the strength of the cummins comes from the valve cover. So I should run out in our shop and machine some billet valve covers made out of inco, or titanium so the truck will be stronger. Wake up and smell the coffee, only if it is a billet cup of course.

 

[K_Arts]

Re: In your camp

Originally posted by BRoth

Hey all you DTT supporters did you ever think that there is another world out there?



Our world has changed with our new 7x convertor, every one is referring to our old out sourced technology. When we brought the manufacturing inside our doors we did have some (6) problems that we have taken care of.

Not trying to throw rocks... but actually I have been studying the various types of TC's for the wifes truck.



I keep coming back to the same conclusion. There really is 2 different worlds out there for TC's. There are companies that keep trying to talk the talk by advertisement..... and then there is Bill K.



I have played with different power levels in my truck anywhere from stock to over 400 hp. . and I have never had a problem with DTT's TC. That sucker keeps on taking the punishment that I've been throwing at it. . and still delivers tons of power to the ground.



Yes the DTT TC isn't for everybody. . but Bill will be the first one to tell you that!! Bill isn't afraid to tell you that this TC is not really fit for your application. . and he'll give you alternatives. How many other vendors out there are willing to turn away business to ensure that the customer gets what he NEEDS?



I support DTT all the way!!! Only DTT TC's will be installed in my trucks. . PERIOD!!!



Kev

 

[Archive]

azgearpro,

I had to think real hard about that question, so let me see if I can answer it to the best of my ability. . When you purchase a piece of metal, of a prescribed size it comes in what the industry calls a billet. A CNC Machine is used to produce the item out of that billet of steel, hence the desciption a billet cover, as opposed to a stamped cover(OEM). I don't think they are using this particular application is airplanes yet, so this cover does not require heat treatment. The strength of the cover(Clutch Surface) does come from the cover. If you made the Stator out of titanium would it work better? Maybe you could have your machine shop make you a Aluminum crank Shaft for your truck. I think you may be drinking the wrong coffee.



K_Arts,



That's the beauty of it all, you have done your homework and made what you feel to be the best application for your situation.



Dennis

 

[azgearpro]

Billet is actually has a oxygen free substrate. But Good post Perry

 

[Bill Kondolay]

Mr. Perry,



I don’t care if you represent Suncoast or not, it does not affect my life one-way or another, that is your right. But tell the truth, 200 tc’s and no failures, come on man.



I guess the guys that come to me with the Suncoast non – failures are just bad drivers.



I realize some companies say they dont have failures or problems, but what that should tell the normal individual is that if the company does not have failures or problems then it must be the customers must have problems or failures. Chip fisher as you stated never had a problem with over 200 sold.

Well good for him.



TC clutch failure results for many reasons, you either accept that fact or not. All tc mfgs have clutch failures that is a given whether they say it or not. What causes those failures is the heart and soul of the issue.



Lets use your own personal truck for example, why did you install the shift kit, could one of reasons be that you needed the extra line pressure to help prevent the tc clutch from slipping?



Oil, the co-efficiency of the oil to the friction material that is used in the tc what role does that play?



Pump bushing, don’t you think all that rotating mass from the tc will have an adverse effect on the durability of the pump bushing, and wouldn’t that result in premature clutch lining failure in the tc and the transmission?



Pressure, what role does pressure rise play on the durability of the tc clutch lining and transmission clutch packs?



My point is this, the customers that I’ve encountered are looking for more than just a convertor, they are looking for a solution to a problem.



The solution is not just the tc, or just a vb, it is the system as a whole, its the installers, its the oil, and yes it is even the customer driving habits.



That is the main reason we take the time to educate our customers.



That is why guys sometimes have to drive 400 miles to have our products installed by a qualified installer. They want their trucks to live.



Having said that, next issue,



For whatever reasons you seem to have found it compelling to specify who builds my tc’s for me. Who builds my tc is not relevant to this conversation unless you have some other hidden agenda, my point is so what ?



I never denied i chose a good company to build my products, unless one has been led to believe that i hand build them in some back room what is the big deal?



I suggest you do a little research you will see , i never claimed to be the do all and end all with the steel stator, i believe you will note i have mentioned on several threads in the past that the steel stator has been in the drag racing industry for over 15 years.



PS.

I have known Bob & Steve for over 20 years as i too am a drag racer and grew up with these people.



Let me fill you in on another little thing you may not be aware of , TCS has also built front covers for Suncoast, so what? Suncoast buys my oem stators so they can mill them at a lower cost, so what? I buy their factory covers as they dont use them, so what?



I choose companies all over North America to build components for me.

We buy from Sonnax, Raybestos, Borg Warner, ect. So what? I chose who i consider the best.



And lastly,



What can you tell the ford guys when they ask, tell them i will choose what i consider to be the best components to make their tc’s kick the azz of anything on the market for starters.



Mr. Roth,

Let us just agree to disagree. !!

 

[azgearpro]

Bill K. for Presedent, ooh yah! he is Canadian, Good job Bill, dont be upset the majority of the tdr Knows your right. Some people will never listen to reason, or facts. There tc has a billet cover and milled stator it sounds good, so it must be good, NOT! . If this was a better way of doing things I know you would be doing it this way. The fact is just because it is machined doesnt mean it is the most expensive way, or the best way of doing it.

 

[Archive]

Bill,

Does this mean your Ford converter will or will not have a billet

cover simailar to the Sun Coast design? Yes or No? When you do get that TC done for the Ford, 1) Find someone that has Ford that is going to Muncie. 2) install it in their truck. 3) Tell them to look for the TS Truck on Sunday. 4) Explain to them that winning isn't everything .



azgearpro,

You mean you would like to have a guy that has allowed other TC companies to do all of the R&D and he takes credit for to be our President Well I guess you have a point, he beat around the bush and talked about every part of the converter. "The crowd is going wild chanting his name", everyone one is really impressed with his knowledge... but he still never answered the question at hand





If the DTT converter now has a billet cover like the suncoast does this mean that billet covers are good now?



I did do a little more reasearch into the matter, and found that

TCS asked if they could build some covers for suncoast, but after weighing all factors Sun Coast decided they would rather spend thier money in the USA, since they don't have the advantage of building their product north of the border at a favorable exchange rate and then selling it through a USA address south of

the border.



Dennis

 

[MCummings]

Ya know, You'd have to be purty confident in your stuff to let a 19 year old loose with a 500HP Cummins, and Your own automatic trannsmission behind that torque monster.



I know one thing about the DTT's trannies,, after watching Stefan drive there company show truck. . That is one Strong durable transmission.



Fast1, Stefan K. and I went into town for food at the Texas rally 2001,, Lets just say,, You don't have to light foot a DTT equipped truck. (Stefan was the only one with an auto)



Ever heard of the saying,, If you're gonna make smoke,, Make lots of it,,,,,, It's harder to get your plate #,, well,, lets just say,, nobody was getting Stefan's Plate #.



Whew that was fun,, can't wait for the next Texas Rally.



MerrickNJr



P. S. Sure wish I could have gotten a ride in your truck,, but time was tight. Thanks for letting me help, LOL, install the PE COMP. I said I was gonna install it,, and by the time I was looking for instructions, yall were about 50% done, all I did was put the connection in at the fuse panel,,,, and went for a test drive