Torque Converter

[John]

20 FAN, some of us want to hear the untold facts as we ALREADY have a stake in this game.

 

[K_Arts]

I'm with you John, I really enjoyed hearing Bill and Brian going back and forth. I am glad to see that we can have discussions on the TDR and keep things civilized. A big Thanks goes out to both of you guys... . and Thanks for all of the info that you have shared with us.

Kev

 

[Bill Kondolay]

20FAN,

I am sorry if this post offends you but you at least know there is a difference. What you choose to do is entirely up to you, however you know there is a difference.

There are many others out there that do not have the information that you now posess because of this thread.

It is very hard to explain the differences between the milled stator and the steel stator on paper.

The industry is changing because the Dodge Ram owners are becomming more informed.

While i for one am sorry you were offended this has been an uphill battle for DTT trying to change an industry single handledly.

These companies have continued to sell milled stators as they are more profitable and the majority of consumers dont know how to tell the difference.

Roger, the best way i can describe it to you is this,if someone was reading an add that advertised 95% effieiency and one was said to have 91% efficiency which one do you think they would believe was best for them.

Forget everything you just read on this thread,and say you didnt know anything about torque converters, you are now relying on the ad to tell you the truth so you can make an informed decision.

What if you can only afford to do the job only once.

Bill Kondolay
Diesel Transmission Technology

 

[BRoth]

Let’s not get drawn into the fight and forget to achieve something.

The graphs depict a mechanical benefit, one that can compare and be repeated.

You try it at home! It would work better if you had some type of control on your convertor lock up but the next time you are pulling heavy. Watch your tach; compare the hp rating on the graph to the rear wheel hp that your engine is capable of at that rpm.

Example: When you are in a fluid coupling pulling at 2600 rpm with about 24-27 pounds of turbo boost engage the lock up clutch. Bear in mind that depending on how your engine is set up you may require less boost/fuel. We want 180 rear wheel hp developed so we can see the slippage in the convertor.

What is the rpm drop. The BD6L drops 5% (130 rpm) I am suggesting that a hand built stator (there are others) should be able to only drop 3%(78 rpm. ) The stock units will drop 21% 546 rpm. Now doesn’t the difference between 78 and 130 seem quite small compared to what has been achieved from stock.

In order to complete this test though we need to get accurate dyno'd results. I have an offer to 2 current DTT convertor customers. A free full dyno run with power statistics and a case of Stanadyne performance formula fuel additive.

Brian@bd-power

 

[sdalton]

I think that when you have a vested interest in a product, it is hard to be non-biased. I will start a new post in this forum. It will be for anyone with any problems with either the BD or the DTT transmission products. Fair is fair. Let the consumers speak.

[This message has been edited by sdalton (edited 01-08-2001). ]

 

[Gohon]

20 FAN I agree with you on this one. When two venders are debating a subject I expect to learn something but when one of them turns to personal attacks, even if that person might have the better product I shy away from them. Stick to posting the facts, trust the reader to sort through the bull and take the personal attacks to email.

Jerry


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1999, 2500 QC 4X4, Driftwood,Auto, Stock, Cab High Shell, Tow Package, Camper Package.

 

[dwstover]

Allright boys, let the games begin. Anyone in the South West part of the USA that had the misfortune to buy all the BD TC stuff that is intrested in Bills challange, bring it on. I have one of Bill K’s TC & VB installations in my 1998. 5 Ram 3500 with 4:10 rear. Lets play. Send me an Email to set up a time.

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The Crazy New Mexico Cowboy
Don Stover

 

[Ray J]

I'm just reading and "listening" and find the whole thread very interesting. I know that I will be needing trans. mods in the future and am trying to get some education from all the input. Its not very often that a person can find two vendors discussing the differences in their products... intensly or not... and I'm finding it very educational.

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01 2500 Sport, QC, LWB, Auto, 4. 10, 4x4, Camper Pkg, Geno's muffler eliminator pipe, rest is stock for now

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

BD, DTT, and Dunrite [in alphabetical order] will give technical presentations at May Madness. I also hope to have a "round table" discussion if time permits. Each company would submit several questions of general or specific interest. Each vendor would have the opportunity to respond to every question. Because of the nature of such a discussion, being different from a technical seminar, time limits will be imposed to keep the discussion moving. The emphasis is on technical. Objective tests are welcome and there should be the opportunity to perform them with a dyno shop and drag strip handy. I am sure you can arrange shop/lift time to change converters, etc. if desired.

I don't have an automatic and have no vested interest in the results. I feel the TDR members are interested and would like to sort out the claims as to relative merit when they spend hard earned money.

We are fortunate to have three automatic trans companies at MM'01 that customers feel are at the "cutting edge" with state-of-the-art products. We cannot expect them to agree on all their approaches, but hopefully their wisdom and technical innovations will help buyers in the decision process.

I guess this will be something like the Star Wars episodes: Trans Wars
[and since lubrication companies will be similarly represented, Lube Wars]
Don't miss May Madness 2001!

 

[Archive]

Originally posted by Bill Kondolay:

Kat, if you wouldn’t mind helping me out a little bit please, can you please make me a graph that is as nice as Mr. Roth’s graph the numbers don’t really matter as the customers cant verify them anyway.

<font color=blue>

Sorry Bill I meant to reply to this comment earlier but forgot to. Anyhow I would love to make a graph to prove my point but I don't have PowerPoint Software at home... . its at work. I was gonna graph my "theorectical" convertor that runs at 99% effciency! #ad


Anyhow I think my point has been proven... . the graph is useless without the addtional info.

 

[Bill Kondolay]

Since last night I have re-read my posts on this thread and some of it wasn’t too nice, I would have done a better job had I said something like this.

I do not like Dyno testing because of the human controllability of the outcome and what I believe is an un-realistic simulation compared to actual road testing.

The testing Mr. Roth is proposing goes something like this,
Imagine going down the road at 55mph your converter is locked up and your engine rpms are say 2200rpms, then you dis-engage lock up- now your rpm’s jump to 2350rpms, now while this looks impressive as there is only 150rpms difference between locked and un-locked there is absolutely no load on the TC since the vehicle was already at 100% efficiency. It is merely coasting.

While this looks good on the charts and graphs it is not reflective of what is actually expected of the TC under load when you are towing or hot rodding.

This method also cannot show you the torque multiplication en-hancements on the Dyno that the steel stator achieves over the milled oem stator . By milling the oem stator you have actually reduced torque multipliation. That is a critical part of what your tc must be able to do when you need to get your trailer moving from a dead stop.

The other thing the Dyno cannot measure is the 1-2pmg fuel economy improvement the steel stator can achieve overtop of the milled stator.

The Dyno also cannot show you the 50-70 degrees LESS HEAT the steel stator converter generates under load compared to the milled stator. You can imagine how important this last point is when towing up hills .

Brian,
I propose we just agree to dis -agree on the milled stator vs steel stator issue and testing methods.

I am a busy man as are you, I have many constructive projects that require my concentration and energies and as some of the guys on this thread have pointed out this type of banter between you and I isn’t getting us anywhere.

As long as my customers are happy, my products speak for themselves. I don’t think realistically I can really ask for more than that, and as some may have noticed my customers are more than willing to share their experiences bad or good.

Bill Kondolay
Diesel Transmission Technology

 

[BRoth]

Kat I am interested in supplying the additional information you want. But I don't understand what you think is missing in the test.

Have you tryed the test I suggested? Has anyone? Try monitoring the difference and you will see the change from a fluid coupling to a 1 to 1 ratio. Add some power and rpm and it is a consistent out come.

Piers and I tested it tonite on the way into a SAE meeting. He floored it, took it up to 27 psi and 2600 and then locked up the convertor. It was hard to read from the passenger seat but it sure looked less than 100 rpm. My graph showed it was more!

dwstover, I know your up for the test, let us hear your results.

Brian@bd-power

 

[Archive]

Originally posted by BRoth:
Kat I am interested in supplying the additional information you want.

<font color=blue>
Its not the test I have a problem with, for all I care test all you want. Its the way the graphs were presented in a public forum that bother me, we the public are hit with a graph that shows numbers only, no forumla, no mention of how the test was performed, under what conditons etc... information which is critical. Here is the graph in question :

<center> #ad

This Graph is from the BD website. I am not endorsing their product merely showing what we are talking about. </center>

I emailed you but haven't recieved a reply back as of yet. I would like to know more about this "Offer" you have out on the table. I can use a case of Stanadyne and as you know I will be there in February.

But I will run the truck on two different Mustang Dynos, not just "your" dyno.
<font size=-2>


[This message has been edited by KatDiesel (edited 01-09-2001). ]

 

[Bill Kondolay]

Brian,
All i can say is WHAT BRAND OF TIRES are you using? Its been raining all day and it still is, I tried the same test today and my tires broke loose.

Bill

 

[Piers]

Michelin LTX 265/16's & the tires did break loose in the lower gears, O/D unlock to lock was okay as long as you kept the boost to under 28lbs. #ad

I just want to point something out, those tests were done From a fluid coupling to lock up Not the other way around.
dwstover have you owned a BD torque converter? I believe you cancelled your appointment with BD & got DTT's valve body & t. c. installed, great I wish you the best & I hope it works out fantastic for you, but please don't call someone elses product down if you never even tried it, were trying to keep things as civil as possible #ad

KAT what the graphs are trying to show is 3 modes of operation, stock tc, BD tc both in the fluid coupling & the red is presuming lock up is 100%.
They show the same truck with the 2 different t. c. 's installed & running at different HP levels & at a specific engine rpm, while under load, the t. c. went from a fluid coupling to lock up.
Those figures will very depending on load & rpm. What is Bill's method of determing 91% efficiency, at what rpm & load maybe we could try that test?
The Mustang dyno [anyones] have a feature in which you can simulate up to a 22,000lb load & add in a grade percent, maybe that would be a better test? I really don't think the argument is with wether or not the milled stator is as efficient as the steel stator, Bill's argument is that a milled stator decreases efficiency from the stock one & Brian is trying to point out that it does not. And there are several ways to mill a stator & just because you use the term milled does not mean you have to shorten any veins [ that does remove efficiency]
It's to bad that nobody from Suncoast, Hue's, Protorque, Dunrite, Goerend [nobody in alphabetical order #ad
are here to comment, there is a lot to be learned... lets just please keep it civil, I need my sleep #ad


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Piers, BD engine R&D

 

[arlan]

Piers,
You asked dwstover if he has ever owned a B-D converter. As you know, I have, two of them and there is no comparison. As most people don't know my truck always carries a 4,500 pound camper and I go camping alot. To level my truck I have two quite steep and tall leveling blocks. Whith the B-D converter I used to have to go into low range to climb those blocks. In low range, with the B-D converter, they were easy to climb with just a little throttle. With DTT's converter the truck climbs eaisly onto the blocks in high range. In low range it walks up those blocks at an IDLE. Bills converter and valve body have made my driving experience so much more enjoyable I can't begin to express my feeling on it. With the B-D converter and valve body I was always wanting lockup, lockup, lockup. Now lockup is just a heat reducing benefit, and the heat factor has also been greatly reduced with the DTT converter. My truck now moves when I ask it to. Thanks to Mr. Bill Kondolay. Your the MAN Bill.
Arlan

 

[Mopar-muscle]

Ray J , i have a DTT VB and TC and i am in Mass , i also have a friend with a competitors shiftkit and TC , i will be getting together with him in the near future closer to RI on a saturday in feburary . we can meet and you can drive both trucks , we are at pretty much the same HP level , i have a 2500 , he has a 3500 both same gearing .

Mr. Roth , if you like you can send me your convertor , i'll do a fair test and i'll send it back to you afterwards , unless of course its better , then i'll keep it and Bill will pay for it ... i'm one of Bill's worst nightmares , +500hp at the flywheel.

EDIT ... . 20 Fan , if you think that this disagreement has answered your question and think that the shift kit is all you need , you my friend are sadly mistaken , why do you think that dodge is going to VOID your warranty once you install the E Brake ???? because it will make short work of your stock convertor .

also Mr. Roth , what is the OTHER convertor in your graph ? that surely isn't representitive of the convertor DODGE installed in my 2000 RAM .

[This message has been edited by Mopar-muscle (edited 01-09-2001). ]

 

[K_Arts]

Mr. Roth,

I have been doing some studying myself and I am hoping that you can help me out. From the knowledge that I have gained, I tend to believe that you guys are testing your converters at a coasting speed. Right?

What happends if you end up putting a 15,000 lb trailer on back? How well will it hold up? Not only that, (I am not tryin to instegate anything just get facts), but if your product is as good as you speak of. . how come you don't take Bill up on his Challenge? No this is not a test of whits, but a broad comparison of products. I guess I want to make sure that I buy the right product for my truck... . ONLY ONCE and not go through the hassle that Arlan did.

Piers - Just a simple question. I take it from your reply that you work with a mustang Dyno? By putting both units on a Dyno, what type of results can we get? How accurate will they be? I do know how easy it is to manipulate numbers on computers. Is it just as simple with a Dyno? I guess I don't understand how putting these vehicles on a dyno will test efficiency... accurately? Can you help me understand?

Thanks guys

Kev

 

[Piers]

Mopar Muscle, those test were done with a stock DC tc & a BD6L tc, you must keep in mind that there are a lot of variables in the factory converters. [ some good, some okay & others just plain terrible ]
Kev, the tests were not done at a coast situation, as I stated earlier the truck was under a set hp/load with the tc unlocked, then at those specific rpm's the tc clutch was forced into lock up.
I am not saying that results won't very under different circumstanses, we used that test to show a comparison. And I did ask what method Bill used to obtain his 91% rating and said we were willing to do that test. According to Bill & his test procedure his tc is 91% great, it was asked how we obtained 95%, we told you how that was done, even suggested that under the same circumstances Bill's tc would show at around 97%. I DON'T know how Bill does his test, if he would part with that formula I'm sure we would be happy to do that test. I think the issue here is still revolving around who [ at the present time] has the most efficient tc & I think we have answered that in that we feel Bill has the most efficient tc. Where we have a problem is Bill saying that a milled stator reduces efficiency where our testing shows that it [ if done right] does not.
Kevin you being a computer expert would know better that most how one can manipulate numbers, so I propose that you watch and/or set up the dyno machine, we have nothing to hide, Bill was invited down to participate. I hate this cloak & dagger BS you don't know someone for several years & work closely with them for over 18 months to end up arguing like this.
As for pulling a loaded trailer, do we use 2 different trucks, 2 different drivers & expect the results to be accurate? As I said earlier the Mustang can simulate a load & a grade, you still have the problem of the different trucks. And if you don't believe they can be put on a dyno and set to the same hp & torque level but have completly different driving characteristics, well when you get here I'll show you how that is done. I feel we are bending over backwards to be upfront. Bill please post as to what your test is, it's not okay to keep throwing rocks without backing your statment up, you said that the BD Brake, Pressure Lock, & torque Loc were the worst things you could do to your transmission. You stated that the stock valve body could not handle having a Pressure Lock hooked up, that it would reduce cooler flow to harmfull levels, more than once you posted how you were going to tell all of us how this was so... . but I've yet to see the post.
We were asked to make a statement defending our products, we did. You never came back with your proof otherwise, just fired out inuendos & sayings like... I'll fill you all in when I get back from Tulare. Well we've been back from Tulare [you remember Tulare, that's where I hooked up to a 42,000lb sled but you would'nt cause you had too far to drive if something broke, I think I had the same distance to drive back #ad
but still managed to pull] for quite some time now but that has not been forthcoming. You throw other things like I left for May Maddness with a Suncoast tc in my truck, big deal, I wasn't advertising it as a BD tc as you make it sound. I've tested lots of different tc's. You don't like any negatives coming your way, but you sure as he!! don't mind firing them out.
Whew does my chest feel a lot lighter now #ad

My one typing finger is shorter now though.

Just a quick overview
the tc's were tested under load
they were done as a comparison from a stock tc to the BD6L.
There was no mention of Bill's tc
No one is denying who at this time has the most efficient tc
Rocks can be thrown in all directions, lets stop before someone loses an eye #ad

I'm not responsible for grammer or spelling

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Piers, BD engine R&D

 

[K_Arts]

Originally posted by Piers:
Kevin you being a computer expert would know better that most how one can manipulate numbers, so I propose that you watch and/or set up the dyno machine, we have nothing to hide, Bill was invited down to participate.

Trust me Piers. . I am not questioning your intelligence at all. To be honest with you. . I don't even know how a dyno runs. . that is why I was asking. I would very much enjoy checking this out though while we are up there next month. If you wouldn't mind showing us.

Thanks

Kev

[This message has been edited by K_Arts (edited 01-09-2001). ]