Tough shifting in 2nd gear

[GHarman]

New Ugly is startin to get cranky in the transmission. It really growls when operating in 2nd gear. I have to double clutch it to downshift from 3rd to 2nd and sometimes going up from 1st to second. There is no noise when operating in 4th and 5th gears. However, 5th gear operation is rare as there is not much highway speed operation. Max is a stretch of about 5 miles at 60MPH limit.

I do have a spare getrag from "old ugly" but no longer the physical ability do get the job done in any kind of timely manner. I reckon I'll get a repair price from a transmission shop on the worst case scenerio and milk it for a while.

How much is an NV-4500 transmission? I will do some research on TDR.

Was thinking about this as a really long term project if the transmission quits. It could take me a year(maybe more?) to get things apart and back together if I did it myself. I would just have to do more engineering and less mule work:-laf. I still have "old ugly" fresh in my mindOo. . The basic bolts and nuts are not scary. Just the mass of the gear boxes.

It may pay to have it professionally rebuilt just to keep me on the road? Whats the average price for a complete rebuild of a Getrag? GregH

 

[GHarman]

Advanced Transmission

Made a call today. Labor is $631. 80 plus parts. Including dropping both gear boxes and replacing them. 1 Year warranty. Sounds reasonable to me for an 8 hour job per the book! GregH

 

[Coalsmoke]

Hey Greg, sounds like a fair deal but then again our prices up here might be fairly different than yours.

 

[GHarman]

91.5 vs 93 Getrag

Anyone out there with knowledge of interchangeability between years? Is there any difference in mounting geometry to the bell housing,T-case adaptor, shift lever holes for the t-case or electrical hookups? I havent been into the drive train on the '93 and am weighing this as practicality(in my situation) vs raiding our emergency fund. Thanks for your replys. Lots going on right now and not much spare time. GregH

 

[Coalsmoke]

Hi Greg, just a thought, you could call Dodge and ask for the part numbers for a rebuilt transmission assembly of each year, if they're the same P/N you'll know they share the same bolt and spline patterns.

PS: You may need the vin off the 91. 5 and your 93 to do this. If you were closer I'd sell you mine, it has a fresh rebuild on it and I'd have a good excuse to put a NV4500 in.

 

[GHarman]

Hi Greg, just a thought, you could call Dodge and ask for the part numbers for a rebuilt transmission assembly of each year, if they're the same P/N you'll know they share the same bolt and spline patterns.



PS: You may need the vin off the 91. 5 and your 93 to do this. If you were closer I'd sell you mine, it has a fresh rebuild on it and I'd have a good excuse to put a NV4500 in.

Coalsmoke! Thanks for your input! I'll dive into that VIN thing, tomorrow! However, I'd love to do the NV-4500, my-own-self:-laf! Yes, I wish we were closer! Greg

 

[GHarman]

To many responsibilities, to little time

Update. Had bigtime setback with my Mom. She fell and was hospitalized for 16 days. I wasnt able to tackle the repair.

Dropped it off at Advanced Transmission in Wheatridge, Colorado. They have a good rep. and I have used them before for heavy stuff. Its a big hit in the emergency funds, but I cant afford to let it sit till Spring! This is the first transmission rebuild they have performed for me. I'll let you know how it holds up. They replaced the input shaft and seals, pocket bearing and all the syncros, as I remember. They also replaced the LUC clutch with another LUK. Dave Valentine thought the clutch may be on its last legs. It was:-laf! I wanted a South Bend Clutch but they said "they wouldn't warrant it"! You order it and we'll install it. I said I am working with Mom in physical therapy! No can do! So we went with the LUC. Gonna pick it up, today. GregH

 

[JLEONARD]

Good luck with your mom. Hope she can "shift into gear" soon.

Oh yea, good luck with the transmission too.

 

[GHarman]

Thanks!

Working with Mom this PM. She is holding up, but a long way to go.

Took the truck for a test drive and the new syncro would not work on a downshift from 4th to 3rd. Took it back and allowed a mechanic to test drive it. I went along! This kid was short shifting it like a street rod. I told him he better operate it like a !DIESEL! and work within the proper RPM range or he would buy a new engine, to boot! He told me it would down shift ok if I kept below 30mph in 4th gear. We went back to the shop and the service writer argued with me about operation and I told him I would write-up the issue with TDR! He decided to test drive it for his-own-self and "DO-TELL". It was as I said! Now they gotta tear it down and look into it again! I hope they didnt pound the main bearings or bend a connecting rod#@$%!. Old "Tom Martino", the consumer advocate and sponsor for this transmission shop, is gonna get an earful on this job! GregH

 

[GHarman]

Fast turnaround!

Well, "New Ugly" is back on the road! The shop disassembled the drivetrain and had to replace the 3rd gear syncro, again. It was a bad, brand new, part. Clint(the front desk man) and I took it for a test drive this afternoon and it shifted through the gears very smooth, with no issues on downshifts. Took it out on I-70 to get it up into 5th gear. Again, no issues. I did insist on an overfill. Clint said he never heard of it(I understand, He doesnt have TDR to lean onOo. ). He understood about the GETRAG and lubrication issues. So we have a fill with Dino 5W-30 and one quart over. I'll run it for a spell and then swap out the oil for synthetic; maybe 10W-30?

The transmission input shaft was pitted on the inner bearing race. For y'all that routinely work on gear boxes, its no big deal. For me, a non-gearhead, its amazing how these things transfer power as long as they do without having issues:-laf! Anyway, I saved the inputshaft, bearings and I'll take a picture and post it. Lubrication is a real issue, here.

Now I can hear other noises when operating, that werent audible before:-laf. Hopefully we are "good to go" for a long while. GregH

 

[GHarman]

Pictures

Check out the bearing and bearing race on this input shaft. Its not the best picture. Is this pitting a lubrication issue? Interesting stuff! GregH

 

[GHarman]

pondering a SWAG

As the transmission operation was explained to me (please correct me if I am wrong). This bearing cluster only gets direct lubrication when the transmission is in the lower gears. When in 4th of 5th gear there is no longer any splash or runup of lubricant on the gear teeth, from the case?

This brings back memories from many decades ago about a similar method of lubrication on the old Ford F-250 (1972) 4X4. They used the DANA-24 T-case. It was not lubricated at the input-output shaft bearing unless it was in low range. There was no splash lube or lube runup to/on that bearing while in high range 2 or 4 wheel drive.

So, I reckon my point is; to make yer Getrag happy, use a sticky lube oil and run the transmission in lower gears often. Thats my story and I'm "sticky" 'in to itOo. :-laf. GregH

 

[Coalsmoke]

Hey Greg, sorry to hear about your mom. I hope things are still improving for her. Glad you didn't let the transmission shop get away with saying its normal. Pitting like that is a symptom of one or a combination of 4 causes:

Debris contamination (bits of foreign debris rolling through your bearings)
Corrosion (ie water in the oil, turns to rust, ... )
Vibrational or Stress related Fatiguing of the material
Lubrication problems

Sorry I haven't been inside a getrag yet, so I can't give any real advice about the lubricating methods. My gut thoughts would be that it is a splash up off of the lower counter shaft that splashes oil onto the main shaft. Perhaps by overfilling it is allowing the main shaft to run into the oil. Just a hunch.

 

[NIsaacs]

In a manual transmission, the countershaft always turns, so oil splash is occurring in every gear. I agree with Coalsmoke. The main reason for damage to that pocket bearing is the fact that due to design, it does not "wash" like the other bearings do. The contaminates stay in the bearing and continue to "eat".



Nick

 

[JLEONARD]

I wonder if one could rig a small pump and do some plumbing to lubricate the pocket. A continuous duty pump such as a electric fuel pump might be just perfect.

Or a small gear pump.

 

[GHarman]

So, then the question is; where do you put it? An aftermarket housing that replaces the PTO cover on the driver side that includes a pump, plumbing and directional jets with an outboard mounted filter for ease of replacement. Dont forget a fill port at the appropriate height for the necessary overfill! Do we have a patentable idea, here:-laf? GregH

 

[GHarman]

About 20+ years to late

:-laf. GregH

 

[Coalsmoke]

Yeah that's the problem. In order to get the price low enough on something like that, we'd probably need to make them 500 at a time. Other wise it would cost close to the amount of a transmission re and re. Other than us slightly neurotic TDR bunch, not many people would put that much money into a preventative fix.

 

[DValentine]

Hi Greg, I lost track of this thread and just saw it again. I am interested in what you found in there. The transmission was rebuilt at around 80K according to the first owner. He had burned up the bearing that supports fifth gear if I remember correctly. Interesting find in the main shaft.

 

[GHarman]

3rd gear syncro, again

Drove the truck to town, today to fuel up. transmission shifts were a little "notchy" when I would downshift from 4th to 3rd, at first. That soon deteriorated quickly to gear grinding on the downshift. I could make the shift by matching RPMs with the motor, thats tough to do in traffic. The up-shift from 2nd to 3rd worked fine. Glad I have a "warranty". What is the driver that allows the syncro to work on a downshift from 4th to 3rd? I wonder if they are going far enough into he transmission or just have a bad part? GregH