i have an 98. 5 47re i would like to know if i can drop the pan and add dextron3-mercon it is better for firmer shifts at least that is what i read somewhere it is also cheaper , i plan on adding a drain kit and put my sensor in the pan in stead of in the right front test port where i have it now. it only gets to maybe 140 degrees. i would like to know will the dextron 3 mix well with the atf 3? or should i do multiple drains?or do i just need to be right and put atf3 in it?it just dont look very red right out of the jug. thanks
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Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) transmission fluid question
- Thread starter vaicase
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"correct fluid"
Well, a 47RE should be using ATF+4. There are claims documented on the internet where people ran dexron/mercon in these transmission and they started mis-behaving. by merely changing to atf4 it corrects the problems.
There is an ongoing dispute with oil manufacturers involving the FTC and Daimler-chrysler disobeying the law. Make a long story short, the exact makeup of ATF+4 is not being disclosed. It's only benifit seems to be solving locking convertor clutches shudder.
Amsoil synthetic is known to work and they claim ATF+4 qualification.
Valvoline extended life i think it was... and some others brands also go on record as meeting or exceeding manufacturers requirements. must be based upon testing since specs still are not published.
The 47RE (A618) is the great venerable torqueflite with electronic governor, locking convertor and beefier sundry parts. The key as far as fluid is concerned seems to be the locking coverter clutch material and it's lubricant/friction modifiers requirements.
Dexron has never been know for firm shifts, just the opposite, maybe in comparison to ATF+4, but F types of fluid are what racers have used for years. Especially the synthetic F or Race type fluids are the very best. Amsoil and Redline make these also. Often though, these are not recommended for electronic/computer controlled transmissions. (for reasons not disclosed. )
Well, a 47RE should be using ATF+4. There are claims documented on the internet where people ran dexron/mercon in these transmission and they started mis-behaving. by merely changing to atf4 it corrects the problems.
There is an ongoing dispute with oil manufacturers involving the FTC and Daimler-chrysler disobeying the law. Make a long story short, the exact makeup of ATF+4 is not being disclosed. It's only benifit seems to be solving locking convertor clutches shudder.
Amsoil synthetic is known to work and they claim ATF+4 qualification.
Valvoline extended life i think it was... and some others brands also go on record as meeting or exceeding manufacturers requirements. must be based upon testing since specs still are not published.
The 47RE (A618) is the great venerable torqueflite with electronic governor, locking convertor and beefier sundry parts. The key as far as fluid is concerned seems to be the locking coverter clutch material and it's lubricant/friction modifiers requirements.
Dexron has never been know for firm shifts, just the opposite, maybe in comparison to ATF+4, but F types of fluid are what racers have used for years. Especially the synthetic F or Race type fluids are the very best. Amsoil and Redline make these also. Often though, these are not recommended for electronic/computer controlled transmissions. (for reasons not disclosed. )
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only explaination I have found
"If somebody puts DEXRON in, take it to a shop which uses [the right fluid], and have them drain the ENTIRE transmission, and refill with [the right fluid]. This will cost about $160.
WHY? The friction characteristics of DEXRON are different from [the right fluid]. It is a "grabbier" fluid. The Chrysler transmission has an electronic system which continuously senses the behavior of the transmission and regulates shifts accordingly. If DEXRON is used, the clutches inside the transmission will "grab", and the electronic controls, which sample the operation of the transmission about 140-180 times a second, will let up on the clutches. The clutches will then slip excessively, the transmission will try to tighten up on them, and due to the characteristics of DEXRON, they will again grab. This will occur at the 140-180 times per second rate, and the transmission will have a shuddering feel to the shifting. This is also very hard on the clutches, and they will have a short life. The cost to overhaul one of these transmissions is about $1200-$1400 on a front-drive car, so you DO NOT want to shorten its life. "
"If somebody puts DEXRON in, take it to a shop which uses [the right fluid], and have them drain the ENTIRE transmission, and refill with [the right fluid]. This will cost about $160.
WHY? The friction characteristics of DEXRON are different from [the right fluid]. It is a "grabbier" fluid. The Chrysler transmission has an electronic system which continuously senses the behavior of the transmission and regulates shifts accordingly. If DEXRON is used, the clutches inside the transmission will "grab", and the electronic controls, which sample the operation of the transmission about 140-180 times a second, will let up on the clutches. The clutches will then slip excessively, the transmission will try to tighten up on them, and due to the characteristics of DEXRON, they will again grab. This will occur at the 140-180 times per second rate, and the transmission will have a shuddering feel to the shifting. This is also very hard on the clutches, and they will have a short life. The cost to overhaul one of these transmissions is about $1200-$1400 on a front-drive car, so you DO NOT want to shorten its life. "
not really
seen too many transmission rebuilders who do their own thing. But they don't live with the transmission.
Larger shops, the rebuilder is fairly isolated from the customer.
If you have a standard torque convertor, It is precarious to go with something other than ATF+4 Certified fluid.
Don't know why chrysler went with wierd clutch material and wierd programing on these convertors. I mean, sensing clutch grab, and assuming you need to deliberately slip it to get a softer shift is stupid programming. And to know it causes al loop where clutches are slipped and engaged hundreds of times a second is just crazy.
The 47RE is a massive strong torqueflite. My 340 cuda only had 3 clutches and 3 helical gears in the planetary mass. Heck, the 426 hemi only had 4 gears in the planetary section. The 47RE has 5!. A firm shift is not going to kill us. I prefer them. I hate granny... heat inducing shifts. I am not driving my living room couch. Save that crap for the Cadillacs and buicks.
Chrysler could have had a real bullet proof transmission.
Many Many manufacturers have locking convertors and do not have the need to come up with their own fluid. More slip, is not what you want in an automatic transmission. Dexron slips enough! Rather run a F type and did for years in GM, Chrysler torqueflites, and Nissans that all 'specified' dexron. For hundreds of thousands of miles. Nissam maxima SE went 230k miles on F type valvoline.
seen too many transmission rebuilders who do their own thing. But they don't live with the transmission.
Larger shops, the rebuilder is fairly isolated from the customer.
If you have a standard torque convertor, It is precarious to go with something other than ATF+4 Certified fluid.
Don't know why chrysler went with wierd clutch material and wierd programing on these convertors. I mean, sensing clutch grab, and assuming you need to deliberately slip it to get a softer shift is stupid programming. And to know it causes al loop where clutches are slipped and engaged hundreds of times a second is just crazy.
The 47RE is a massive strong torqueflite. My 340 cuda only had 3 clutches and 3 helical gears in the planetary mass. Heck, the 426 hemi only had 4 gears in the planetary section. The 47RE has 5!. A firm shift is not going to kill us. I prefer them. I hate granny... heat inducing shifts. I am not driving my living room couch. Save that crap for the Cadillacs and buicks.
Chrysler could have had a real bullet proof transmission.
Many Many manufacturers have locking convertors and do not have the need to come up with their own fluid. More slip, is not what you want in an automatic transmission. Dexron slips enough! Rather run a F type and did for years in GM, Chrysler torqueflites, and Nissans that all 'specified' dexron. For hundreds of thousands of miles. Nissam maxima SE went 230k miles on F type valvoline.
Do not use Dexron III or Type F.
ATF +4 has more friction modifier in it. Oversimplified, it allows more slip. This is not harmful by itself and with the electronics controling things it is required for max transmission life!.
I have a problem with Amsoil being rated as Dexron III and as AFT+4. I don't see how they can have enough FM to satisfy Dodge without having too much slippage for GM trannys?
Vaicaes,
I would stick with Dodges transmission fluid (AFT+4) as long as you stay stock, especially with your towing and having an EZ.
Don't be confused by DTT transmission owners using ATF+3 (Mercon III).
This is what DTT recommends over ATF+4, after they do their thing.
ATF +4 has more friction modifier in it. Oversimplified, it allows more slip. This is not harmful by itself and with the electronics controling things it is required for max transmission life!.
I have a problem with Amsoil being rated as Dexron III and as AFT+4. I don't see how they can have enough FM to satisfy Dodge without having too much slippage for GM trannys?
Vaicaes,
I would stick with Dodges transmission fluid (AFT+4) as long as you stay stock, especially with your towing and having an EZ.
Don't be confused by DTT transmission owners using ATF+3 (Mercon III).
This is what DTT recommends over ATF+4, after they do their thing.
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slippage
I have a problem with Daimler / chrysler deliberately flaunting the law.
Please email the FTC and log your complaint!
I have a problem with Daimler / chrysler deliberately flaunting the law.
Please email the FTC and log your complaint!
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ATF+4 is supposedly a conventional base stock fluid that has a lot of characteristics of a synthetic fluid. One of the major reasons for the new fluid was the amount of cold weather related transmission failures in Dodge trucks due to fluid "gelling" in the cooler circuit. ATF+4 has much better pour point and viscosity properties for cold weather use than ATF+3 or DexIII. Adding more friction modifier improves cold weather characteristics also.
I don't think (may be wrong) that the converter clutches on our trucks are Modulated, on most Chrysler front wheelers they can run with the converter partially locked up when driving, and they are very picky about fluid. So you may get by with messing around with different fluids without having problems in a truck.
I don't want to start a fluid war, but I'd stick to ATF+4 or use a synthetic fluid that is commonly used by other truck owners. I'm putting a full synthetic in the wife's 98 next time a service is due.
ATF4, ATF3 and DexIII all should have no problem if mixed. Ford's Mercon V is the only manufacturer that states the newer fluid should not be used to service older models. GM states their newest fluid will service earlier vehicles.
I have researched all this fluid crap when I was teaching automatic transmission courses in a tech school and got info from service bulletins from Chrysler, GM and Ford.
HTH,
Wayne
I don't think (may be wrong) that the converter clutches on our trucks are Modulated, on most Chrysler front wheelers they can run with the converter partially locked up when driving, and they are very picky about fluid. So you may get by with messing around with different fluids without having problems in a truck.
I don't want to start a fluid war, but I'd stick to ATF+4 or use a synthetic fluid that is commonly used by other truck owners. I'm putting a full synthetic in the wife's 98 next time a service is due.
ATF4, ATF3 and DexIII all should have no problem if mixed. Ford's Mercon V is the only manufacturer that states the newer fluid should not be used to service older models. GM states their newest fluid will service earlier vehicles.
I have researched all this fluid crap when I was teaching automatic transmission courses in a tech school and got info from service bulletins from Chrysler, GM and Ford.
HTH,
Wayne
transmission fluid
Fluid, shmulid!! The new 1V,, costs 8. 95 a quart. . What is good about that? They've also said if you don't use MOPAR fluid to change your filter etc. , it will void your warranty. What a screw job that is! My Chrys. 300 uses the same fluid! I like to stay on top of changes etc. , but--- I called the dealer and asked how much to service the transmission, like you're supposed to do at 30,000. Get this,,,$ 275. 00. I almost fainted. All my older Dodges over the years would cost about 50. 00 to change the filter etc. . Plus, my transmission has that shudder you hear about in overdrive. . They told me to shift out of overdrive. Yes, the shudder goes away, and at highway speeds my mileage drops 20%. Should have kept my '92.
Fluid, shmulid!! The new 1V,, costs 8. 95 a quart. . What is good about that? They've also said if you don't use MOPAR fluid to change your filter etc. , it will void your warranty. What a screw job that is! My Chrys. 300 uses the same fluid! I like to stay on top of changes etc. , but--- I called the dealer and asked how much to service the transmission, like you're supposed to do at 30,000. Get this,,,$ 275. 00. I almost fainted. All my older Dodges over the years would cost about 50. 00 to change the filter etc. . Plus, my transmission has that shudder you hear about in overdrive. . They told me to shift out of overdrive. Yes, the shudder goes away, and at highway speeds my mileage drops 20%. Should have kept my '92.
amsoilman
Staff Alumni
ATF Frictional Characteristics
As far as "Frictional Characteristics" go, the coefficient of friction of a fluid will affect the "shifting Characteristics" of an automatic transmission.
Chrysler ATF Plus 4 is considered Moderately Slippery
Dexron II & III, Mercon V is considered "Slippery"
Ford Type F is considered "Grabby".
There are other things that are different as well, one of them being "Viscosity"
DEXRON II & TYPE F has a Viscosity of 5W-20.
DEXRON III & MERCON V & ATF PLUS 4 is considered a 0W-20.
Wayne
amsoilman
As far as "Frictional Characteristics" go, the coefficient of friction of a fluid will affect the "shifting Characteristics" of an automatic transmission.
Chrysler ATF Plus 4 is considered Moderately Slippery
Dexron II & III, Mercon V is considered "Slippery"
Ford Type F is considered "Grabby".
There are other things that are different as well, one of them being "Viscosity"
DEXRON II & TYPE F has a Viscosity of 5W-20.
DEXRON III & MERCON V & ATF PLUS 4 is considered a 0W-20.
Wayne
amsoilman
I've used the Redline D4 ATF with great results in a Nissan Maxima. Probably not relevant, but the difference in shift smoothness was astounding. The Redline is priced like liquid gold, but it's the best ATF I have ever used. Redline makes like 5-6 different ATFs.
www.redlineoil.com/products.htm
JUSTIN
www.redlineoil.com/products.htm
JUSTIN
So by going with XXX transmission rebuild early and then using ATF+3, I probably will break even by 500k miles, which is not an unreasonable amount of mileage.
I changed my stock transmission once and it was ~$150 in ATF +4 and filter. Dealer wanted, $300. Did the rebuild early. Now about $50. Cost is a little less per mile than oil changes with the rebuild.
transmission will pull the 13k 5er, the primary objective, will cost less to maintain, secondary objective, and I KNOW it is going to do what I ask it to do with confidence.
Bob Weis
I changed my stock transmission once and it was ~$150 in ATF +4 and filter. Dealer wanted, $300. Did the rebuild early. Now about $50. Cost is a little less per mile than oil changes with the rebuild.
transmission will pull the 13k 5er, the primary objective, will cost less to maintain, secondary objective, and I KNOW it is going to do what I ask it to do with confidence.
Bob Weis
Viscosity of ATF
I believe the info on viscosities for amsoil, listed above, is incorrect. (Correct me if wrong, Amsoilman)
Almost all AFT's are a twenty weight fluid. They may range from a light 20 wt when cold to a slightly heavier 20 wt (25 -28) when hot. But these are minor differences.
Amsoils ATF synthetic ATF is listed as 36 centistokes at 40 degrees C. and 7,5 centistokes at 100 degrees C. Both these readings (technical jargon) equate to a 20 wt. viscosity.
I only know of one ATF that comes close to a multi-grade, and it's only about a 21w-29 wt oil. It was developed by Synergyn Racing Oils for drag racers using the old 2 speed GM Trannys.
Have not checked them all but do know Redline and Mobile One are also 20 wt and fall into the same viscosity range as Amsoil.
I mention this to try and simplify what may be important. IMHO, It's important to use an ATF w/ the right additives for your transmission, but viscosity is not a major concern because all AFT's are the same viscosity.
I believe the info on viscosities for amsoil, listed above, is incorrect. (Correct me if wrong, Amsoilman)
Almost all AFT's are a twenty weight fluid. They may range from a light 20 wt when cold to a slightly heavier 20 wt (25 -28) when hot. But these are minor differences.
Amsoils ATF synthetic ATF is listed as 36 centistokes at 40 degrees C. and 7,5 centistokes at 100 degrees C. Both these readings (technical jargon) equate to a 20 wt. viscosity.
I only know of one ATF that comes close to a multi-grade, and it's only about a 21w-29 wt oil. It was developed by Synergyn Racing Oils for drag racers using the old 2 speed GM Trannys.
Have not checked them all but do know Redline and Mobile One are also 20 wt and fall into the same viscosity range as Amsoil.
I mention this to try and simplify what may be important. IMHO, It's important to use an ATF w/ the right additives for your transmission, but viscosity is not a major concern because all AFT's are the same viscosity.
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amsoilman
Staff Alumni
Rowj,
I do not think I mentioned the specific Viscosity of the Amsoil ATF, but you are correct when you said it was 36. 0 cST at 40 C. and 7. 5 cST at 100 C. These numbers do qualify this ATF as a 20 grade in accordance with J-300 Engine oil Viscosity Classification, Dec. 1999.
I might also add that Amsoil uses the (D2983-03) Standard Test Method for Low-Temperature Viscosity of Lubricants Measured by Brookfield Viscometer. This test method covers the use of the Brookfield viscometer and a low-temperature bath for the determination of the low-shear-rate viscosity of lubricants. The test may operate in the viscosity range of 500 to 1 000 000 mPa¸s (cP). The bath-controlled temperature is selected within the range of +5 to -40°C. This test is used generaly for "Hydraulic" type fluids, of which ATF is considered.
I have to disagree with you here, as Viscosity is the single most IMPORTANT characteristic of a Lubricant!
Of all the Characteristics a lubricant possess, the most important is its "VISCOSITY"
The Viscosity of a fluid and how that viscosity reacts to certain variables will determine how well the fluid can perform the basic functions of a fluid. There is no substitute for Viscosity!
I do agree It's important to use an ATF w/ the right additives for your transmission, but those additives are allready in the ATF when we purchase whatever ATF we decide to use. No one shoould have to add extra additives to ATF.
Wayne
amsoilman
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Ron, while I have used lubeguard (red) that wasn't the stuff I was reffering to. I have a bottle of stuff that I bought when I change the oil in my Taurus transmission that converted dexron III to Mercon V spec, which is spendy like the atf+4. I ended up not using it but for some reason I cannot find the bottle to get the name of the stuff. But I am almost sure that there was also stuff to change dexronIII to atf+4. Hopefully I am not mistaken. As for the black bottled lubeguard that you were probably referring to in your post..... I forget what it converts ATF to. I just know that it has been stated numerous times on the boards to not use the Lubeguard in the black bottle on our Rams. Does anyone know what the black Lubeguard does... ... I have always wondered.
Actually I was referring to the lubeguard in the red bottle, at least that is what color I thought it use to come in, and no, I have never ever heard on this board or any other board not to use lubeguard in our transmissions.
Maybe some one can come on the board and clearify lubeguard use.
Ron
Maybe some one can come on the board and clearify lubeguard use.
Ron
Re: ATF Frictional Characteristics
OK, I did a search on-line. There are three different versions of Lubeguard additive availiable. We will call them red, black and green which pertains to the color of the bottle that they come in. Red is a additive that:
Reduces operating temperature, allowing transmissions to perform more efficiently.
Increases thermal & oxidative stability of ATF for stop & go driving, heavy loads & towing.
Reduces transmission wear, extends fluid & transmission life.
Maximizes over all transmission performance.
Helps reduce comeback & warranty problems for shops & mechanics.
Insures proper & smooth shifts.
Prevents clutch chatter & torque converter shudder.
Eliminates objectionable noise (squawks) during shifts.
Keeps valves free. Frees stuck valves in valve bodies.
Prevents hung governors.
Modifies harsh shifts & makes them quicker in duration.
Can be used with all ATFs: OEM, Synthetic or Mineral-Oil Based.
Contains LXE (synthetic esters & synthetics).
It is a protectant, in other words..... it is like adding Slick 50 or something similar to your engine. It is endorsed and recommended by many transmission shops. I use it religiously and like it..... it works.
__________________________________________________
Black is a supplement fluid that converts Dexron II,III/Mercon ATF into a high friction modified fluid. High friction modified fluids are:
Make-----------------------Manufacturer's ATF
Acura-----------------------Genuine Honda
Jeep------------------------Mopar ATF + 3 (7176), ATF + 4 (9602)
Chrysler-------------------Mopar ATF + 3 (7176), ATF + 4 (9602)
Lexus----------------------Toyota Type T & T4, (T II)
Chrysler / Dodge--------Mopar ATF + 3 (7176), ATF + 4 (9602)
Mitsubishi-----------------Mitsubishi Diamond SP
Eagle----------------------Mopar ATF + 3 (7176), ATF + 4 (9602)
Nissan---------------------Nissanmatic D
Honda---------------------Genuine Honda
Plymouth------------------Mopar ATF + 3 (7176), ATF + 4 (9602)
Hyundai-------------------Mopar ATF + 3 (7176), ATF + 4 (9602)
Sterling--------------------Sterling ATF
Infiniti----------------------Nissanmatic D
Toyota---------------------Toyota Type T & T4, (T II)
__________________________________________________
Green is a supplement fluid that converts Dexron II, III/ Mercon to Mercon V.
__________________________________________________
Both Black and Green give you all the benefits of Red plus the friction modifiers. They are around 13. 00 dollars a bottle. Seems that it is well worth it to buy cheap oil and then use these supplement in a ratio of 1 oz. per quart of ATF.
When people were saying not to use the Black they meant to not use it with fluids that were already "high friction modified". This should clear the air about Lubeguard treatments. Hope this helps... ... sorry if it sounds like an advertisement.
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