transmission oil

[mikepvg]

Syntorq is excellent;

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1237



Any high quality SYNTHETIC GL-4 in the correct viscosity will be an excellent subsitution. My choice is Redline MT90;

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1387





Mike

 

[Alaskaskiff]

Actually at 24K the oil looks all metallic and terrible. Have not had an analysis done. Looks about the same as conventional oil in the rear end for a similar interval.



I don't like it, but don't like the alternatives either.



I had a synchronizer bind up towards the end of the interval and changed the oil out, and problem went away.

 

[JJW_ND]

I am just a Amsoil consumer that has watch the temp gauge in my 96 5sp for over 110 miles with Amsoil fluid. Hotshotted stock trailers with power increased over factory. Lost 5th gear 3 times (even oil can not prevent that) with the last require shaft replacement at 150K on the original factroy transmission and clutch.



In all those miles, mostly highway, and with turned up power, 99% in 5th gear; I never seen transmission oil temps reach 200. NEVER! Many many miles ran WOT in 5th (2000 rpms) for several hundred miles at a stretch. You can believe the wear on the rear tires after those runs.



Is 150 - 180 degrees to hot? This is where the pulling temps would run the majority of the time.



The core transmission was sold to a Transmission shop in OH. They only had to rebuild the 5th gear and shaft. All other gears, syncros were just fine. Even the YELLOW METAL ones.



I changed out the factory NVG oil that was in the brand new 2000 5sp transmission had installed and replaced it with Amsoil. The tempuratures seemed to run cooler after the change, but the test of the factory fill came back with a 30 weight oil (6speed oil??? in this 5sp).



jjw

ND

 

[Bob Beauchaine]

If I remember the article Adaniels is refering to regarding the NV4500HD and proper lubricant - Castrol was not a full syntehtic. I am currently using a Pennzoil 75W90 GL4 FULL synthetic. It is a GL4 gear lube only - not a GL4/GL5 multi use gear lube. It is not cheap to make. What I've got came to me through someone that I did a favor for so the price was right. If anyone is interested I will try to get a price. I have used it for the past 6 months and has worked very well

Happy Trails

Bob

 

[Matt42]

My Oil versus Yer Oil

I don't recall having had so much fun reading a running discussion since the . 308 vs. 7. 62 NATO argument on the Cruffler list. What I am looking for is first person evidence that Amsoil gear oil or some other substitute (1) will not harm an NV-4500 transmission, (2) Will lubricate it better, (3) will make it last longer, and (4) will be enough less expensive to make using the non-Syntorq worth the risk.



Let's assume that Amsoil gear lube is $8 per quart, and Syntorq at my Daimler Chrysler dealer is $25 per quart. Using Amsoil will cost $32. The Syntorq will cost me $100. I "save" $68. That $68 represents about 0. 2% of what I paid for my truck, or 2. 7% of the $2500 WAG estimated cost of putting in a rebuilt transmission.



Two point seven percent savings? Two tenths of a percent savings? Those are pretty small to cause me to put a nonapproved gear lube into a $2500 transmission. But those tiny "savings" numbers are overstated. I can get the same Syntorq in a General Motors bottle for $18 per quart, and less from Standard Transmission in gallons.



What I would want to see is a product guarantee from Amsoil that their gear lube is suitable for use in an NV-4500, and that they warrant the transmission against lubrication failures. I am not holding my breath. Until then, I will not risk a twenty-five hundred Dollar transmission in a thirty thousand Dollar truck to maybe save fifty or even sixty Dollars.



I was an Amsoil dealer in the past, and I have had problems that appear anecdotally related to using Amsoil. I say "anecdotally" because I did not spend the money to have the oil tested for meeting the specs. I just fixed the apparently related problems and moved on, and the problems themselves might have been coincidental. The first problem dealt with Amsoil gear lube oozing from a 15K mile RWD Mazda 5 speed transmission, and also forming deposits on the synchros. I cured that by running Havoline gear lube with CD-2 detergent for 500 miles, then going back to regular gear oil. The second problem was with Amsoil engine oil. I sent an oil sample to Amsoil, and they did a regular oil analysis on it. That analysis told me that wear metals and silica were OK and that the additives they tested were fine. That told me nothing, as the oil was associated with deterioriation of seals. Then Amsoil wanted me to pay for the oil analysis.



I am no longer a dealer, but I still use some Amsoil products. For example, their PI gasoline additive is terrific stuff for keeping fuel injectors clean in Phoenix summer traffic.



My truck isn't bombed. Apart from the dreadfully chalked emerald paint, it's pretty much standard. I don't even give it a workout. I figure that the engine is capable of putting out 200 ft-lbs more torque than I'll ever need. So I'm not going to overload the transmission.



But on with the discussion. This one is really fun!

 

[Sled Puller]

Re: synthetics

Originally posted by tdramrmbr

the down fall of synthetics is they do not work with moisture...

That statement is incorrect.



It is the principle of thing- Chrysler scares you into buying their oil at inflated prices because of that handy little warning stickers. Their oil should be about $6 a quart.

People whine that Amsoil costs too much- yet they line up like sheep to buy Castrol at twice the cost with a smile on their face?!?!?!



What is next? you must use only our ATF?(they tried that one boys!) Only OUR engine oil?



Amsoil DOES have a warranty. It is on their website. You can stop holding your breath!!



Does anyone ever stop to think that the reason Enterprise and Standard rebuild THOUSANDS of these trannys?



ANYONE????

Could it be the factory fill oil?? Just asking, not stateing.



I know Enterprise rebuilds things BETTER than before, not the same.



Don,

I was fully prepared with condiments to eat crow and apologize to "Dr. " Joe, if my transmission's problems were oil related. QUITE the opposite. Why, the yellow metals all looked brand new, no EATING of them at all.



In 2 years of this debate, all I have seen is coulda, maybe shoulda, it mite ,it can.

They has been NO PROOF Amsoil has caused any damage whatsoever in these transmissions. Yet we have pages of testimonials that the Amsoil is doing better than fine, and others running all sorts of oils in these trannys and having no problems.



How many warrantys have been voided? (This is moot, because if they are running the Amsoil, the chances of a failure are slim to none!)





And BTW, my truck comes before Amsoil, if it was doing the nasty to me, it would be GONE.

I would prolly try some of RedRams stuff, I like his posts.

Gene

 

[Don M]

MGM, your up late tonight. Guess you just got finished with your tupperware party huh?



Lets just do the heat test and I will shut the heck up.

Its gonna cost me a lot more cash than it will you. My pride could even get damaged. I could even be made to eat crow.

Name some conditions for the test and lets see what happens.

Send me 40 bucks worth of that super duper Amsoil and I will run my old wore out Syntorq against it.

Maybe since your a dealer you could get Amsoil to run some tests of their own aginst the Syntorq?

I want ot get ot the bottom of this as well. I would love to have the cojones you have to just say you can run Amsoil in any dern transmission you can find and not worry about the warranty. Amsoil will cover it for an oil related failure.



Don~

 

[Sled Puller]

Originally posted by JJW-ND

I am just a Amsoil consumer that has watch the temp gauge in my 96 5sp for over 110 miles with Amsoil fluid. Hotshotted stock trailers with power increased over factory. Lost 5th gear 3 times (even oil can not prevent that) with the last require shaft replacement at 150K on the original factroy transmission and clutch.



In all those miles, mostly highway, and with turned up power, 99% in 5th gear; I never seen transmission oil temps reach 200. NEVER! Many many miles ran WOT in 5th (2000 rpms) for several hundred miles at a stretch. You can believe the wear on the rear tires after those runs.



Is 150 - 180 degrees to hot? This is where the pulling temps would run the majority of the time.



The core transmission was sold to a Transmission shop in OH. They only had to rebuild the 5th gear and shaft. All other gears, syncros were just fine. Even the YELLOW METAL ones.



I changed out the factory NVG oil that was in the brand new 2000 5sp transmission had installed and replaced it with Amsoil. The tempuratures seemed to run cooler after the change, but the test of the factory fill came back with a 30 weight oil (6speed oil??? in this 5sp).



jjw

ND

There was a good REAL WORLD test.



Excellent post, but I missed where the yellow metals melted from extreme heat?!?!



Oh, there it is. I missed it, because it DIDN'T HAPPEN.

 

[Don M]

MGM, your a pretty cool cat. I gotta hand ya that. You never get the personal comments flying around like I have from time to time.



Your a daisy Man. Thats a compliment, BTW. You Easterners sometimes have a little different speak than us Thought I would let you know that its not a cut down.



Don~

 

[Hammer]

Man ya just got to love all the whining and sniveling the $54/gallon Castrol users make every time Team Force needs more money,,One thing I'll never understand Don is your constant DC impared,brainwashed attitude about this subject,,Like what was already said here... WHATS NEXT???... ,,You going to only use the Mopar filters since they say so(and yes there is a directive about it) and make sure your truck is serviced at the dealers so they can document the work in case it ever needs warranty work there is no quarrelling??,,I'm still in confusion on how your "stock" truck can even have any warranty at all(think I just looked a photo of a prted head you were bragging about earlier,and we all know how stock that is),drivetrain or not,once bombed we all know where we stand,, Man you amaze me... ... ... .

 

[Don M]

Hammer,



You amaze me too. Do you sell this stuff under MGM? Is he your go to man for product? Every time this comes up you come running rattling your sword and play on his side. You gotta be defending this stuff and him for a reason. What is it?



Ok, lets do the dern test and see what happens or maybe you and MGM can convince Amsoil to do a test of their own and shut me up.



Could you be the brainwashed one? You defend the product without any controlled data to back it up. Remember, I said controlled. Not stories of great looking yellow metals and pretty clean gear cases. Real data.

Amsoil has yet to come out with a test and data to back up their claims. They seem to throw the 4 ball scare tests sheets around at every local gun show here in Dallas. TDR magazine is full of engine oil tests from them. What about the trans oil? Notta!



Further, John Force will go through more bucks in a weekend of racing than the sale of Castrol Syntorq will bring in after a lifetime.



Hammer, your no daisy! That title is for your boss at this time.



Don~

 

[Sled Puller]

Don,

Every discussion you get into on this board seems to result in personal attacks, having nothing to do with the topic.

I'm pretty sure Hammer has never bought a qt of oil from me. He was using Amsoil before me. I'm also pretty sure he has never sold Amsoil on this site. We have nothing to do with Amsoil together.

I think Hammer just forgets you are there, until you start going off on us for telling people an alternative to an overpriced product.





Show me ONE real world test that Amsoil will do what you say it will do.

YOUR'RE a daisy if ya do, find evidence, that is.



You can't.

This forum is my proof it works in this transmission.



Please remember that the the Dodge 5 speed Lube sales is a very small part of Amsoil total sales, I don't think they are going to spend thousands on some test you have dreamed up to show you it works.

BTW, I have a book full of specialty oils, that Amsoil does not make a suitable replacement. No way would they tell you to put in something that will not work.

You use other Amsoil products, you know the quality.



Funny, NONE of us asks for hard core data on Engine mods, now do we? We take our TDR brother's words for it. (How is you turbo Don, any warranty on that?LOL!)



Don, if you had some hard core evidence that Amsoil destroyed your transmission, I could see you arguing this seriously.



I guess that little sticker means more to some people than others.

Gene

 

[amsoilman]

DonM,

I can assure you that Amsoil has done, and continues to do "Real World" testing, such as large fleets, as well as lab tests, and they do cost a ton of MONEY! In fact, an independent test in the "Real World" of fleet testing of class 8 trucks using this product in the differentials obtained up to 4. 8 percent more MPG than the other trucks in the same trucks using another popular gear lube. This would tell me that the Amsoil 75W-90 was producing less friction, and of course less friction means less heat! I can also assure you that the gear lube in question (Series 2000 75W-90 )is approved for Eaton/Rockwell applications, which will allow for a drain interval of up to 750,000 miles.



As someone else mentioned on this site, they also have a warranty which states:"AMSOIL INC. warrants the use of its lubricants will not cause mechanical damage to mechanicly sound equipment when the products are used in full compliance with Amsoil recommendations. " This to me is a win win situation!



And please do not tell me that if I use their product, "my warranty will be voided"! There is a law that protects me from that!





Best regards,





Wayne

amsoilman

 

[Don M]

Here we go again. Eaton states that other brands of synthetics are NOT approved for the 750,000 miles drain interval commmonly stated.

From the Eaton website:



MT-1 lubricants are NOT approved for extended drain intervals in transmissions(beyond 60,000) or for use with a transmission oil cooler.

Straight from the horses mouth. The same horse you brought outta the stable to race.



Looking through the Eaton Roadranger website I just found more evidence that the synthetic oils are causing leaks to occur from the use of synthetic oils. Apparently any oil temps over 250 degrees is causing the additive packages to attack the nitrile inner tubes of the oil cooling lines to allow the lines to seep through and cause leaking.



Heres is more from Eaton:

Eaton no longer allows the use of gear lubricants (drive axle lubricants) or API MT-1 approved lubricants in transmissions for general service level of warranty or drain intervals. Customers who continue to use gear lubricants or API MT-1 approved lubricants in the transmission will be voiding any of the warranty.



Sound like the same thing DC is trying to tell ya?



These transmissions use the oil pumps I was asking about earlier as well. They are not splash lubed like the NV4500.



There are a few approved lubes from Eaton for extended highway use only drain intervals to 500,000 miles. The Amsoil statements are false.

Dont take my word for call this number 1800-826-HELP.

They will tell you "point in fact" that the Amsoil is not approved for 750,000 intervals in any Eaton transmission. Sounds like more Amsoil hype and disingenuous statements to me.



Please read the statement straight from Eaton on warranty when you say "there are laws to protect me from that"



Don~

 

[Don M]

little more info from MACK

According to the MACK truck website under approved lubricants the Amsoil gear lubes are NOT approved under any of their specifications that Amsoil is saying they are. MACK does not approve them period!

Amsoil is stating in their literature that the oil "meets or exceeds" the specs for MACK. I am begining to think that Amsoil is using some trickery to make these claims.



Further, MACK only approves the engine oil with the product code of PCO for their diesel engine oil from Amsoil. This is their synthetic blend oil. The fully synthetic is not approved even for normal oil change intervals. Forget extended drains.



Why is Amsoil saying the oil meets or exceeds the specs set forth from MACK and then MACK is saying "no way it is NOT approved"?



Anyone care to guess the brand of engine that many MACK trucks use? Answer is Cummins!



amsoilman, can you back up Amsoils claims that the oil IS approved for use in the MACK line of trucks with the Cummins engine? Other than the synthetic blend with the product code of PCO? There is a reason that MACK has decided to disapprove of the Amsoil fully synthetic oil isn't there?



Don~



here are the links to the websites of each company. See for yourself.



Amsoil claims to be approved for MACK here:



http://www.amsoil.com/products/ame.html



MACK does not include Amsoil in their list of approved oils here:



http://www.macktrucks.com/product_lit/litfrme.html



If you lookinto it a little further you will see that Amsoil is stating the same thing for their gear lube as well. They say the Amsoil gear lubes are approved for MACK and MACK does not include them in that either.

Finally, MACK will approve the use of the synthetic blend of engine oil from Amsoil with the product code of PCO. here:



http://www.macktrucks.com/product_lit/litfrme.html



this spec is MACK'S lowest of all. The only one Amsoil is making the list on.

 

[SlyBones]

Hey Don, Its only $50, just buy the amsoil yourself and do the test. And post the results. And show us where the Amsoil heats up beyond the spec of the transmission. And Syntork does not. In the exact same test.



I dont own a manual, but to me a few seconds faster/slower in heat up time seems pointless when I have a 12K 5er I will be grinding up some grade for 20 minutes. I am no expert but I would want to see peak temps over a sustained load.

 

[Hammer]

The Black Knight here

Ya know Don,,I can sit on this thing for hours and overlook your comments so no I do not look for anything to do with you,,I will however tell you that this continued personal attack on me gives me the s***s,,NO I DO NOT WORK OR PURCHASE ANYTHING FROM MGM,so sorry for another slash at you gun belt,,I am however a dedicated user and agree with Gene and will stick by the product we use and I do not buy into DC's scare tatics,,Further more I have only had two conversations with MGM,short of these here,by phone and they had nothing to do with Amsoil or its business,but with his last dyno meet and its results,,Sorry if you take friendship as a threat to you and your $54 gallon product,, With 300 miles between us and the warehouse 24 miles east of me it certainly would not benefit me now would it,,I purchase,for me only,do not sell ,distribute or market ANY of their products,,See I have seen the real world tests and do not need a "controlled environment test" to prove their quality(Oh yeh I forgot,They do not count in your book because I do not have sheets of paper for you to look at from a lab),,I would guess then to,since your in the linking mood,that the gear lube tests my trucking company has been doing(Amsoil included) with Eaton and Rockwell-Fuller are just bogus since you see and believe everything you read,,I do drive for a living and trip thru Texas weekly,so if you want the oil to prove to your self I'd gladly bring it too ya,,One thing though,it goes in and runs in a real world test,meaning you install it and run it for a length of time,photo's before and after,,I do not want to hear any more of your sniveling or personal attacks on me,its put up or shut up time,,Oh and we also do not want to hear,my transmission failed so you need to warranty it,,Just like your efforts in modifying your truck(since we all know here you have no warranty,let alone one on your transmission)its a "I am my own warranty station" deal... I'm finished here before destroy my key board,you want to reach me PM me... ... .

 

[H_D98]

EASY BOYS!!! We don't want to be dodging any fists here on the cyber highway. Last I checked this was still a free country and open to many views and opinions.



Everybody has there own preferences and what works well for one guy may not work as well for the other... we're all dif people in dif situations.



Now that most everyone has voiced there opinion on this matter at least once; get over it and move on... let people try it on there own and make there own decisions.



If I learned anything from college... it's that just because it's tested, written, and taught in one situation... doesn't mean it will work in all. Experience has taught me that.



Just my humble opinion.

 

[Don M]

kseibern,



this happens all the time. Hope no-one really takes it too seriously. I sure dont when it comes down to it.



Hammer,



The personal attack claim is bogus. I just said you 'may' be brainwashed as you stated I 'was'.



No need to destroy your keyboard either. Im really only trying to provide an alternative view to the use of Amsoil in NV4500 transmissions.

Lets dont walk away from this with no answers and bad feelings.

Emotional color is something we should seperate from the discussion.



Lets get the tests done as best we can and see what happens. Im fully prepared to eat crow if the lube shows a lower heat rate of climb and sustained heat over the Syntorq.

Hydroisomerized oil VS. full synthetic Amsoil.



A dyno is the only way the tests could be performed in a controlled condition that I can think of at a reasonable cost of time and money.



Don~

 

[SlyBones]

Can the dyno simulate the load of an 10K 5er on a 7% grade? Then instead of a 10 second dyno run at WOT. You could run the truck at 2400 rpms, in 5th/6th, at this load for 10 minutes. Measure temperature. Drain. Fill and repeat.