Tried to order an 2011.5

[AHolbert]

In Texas, as a private, not for hire, operator of a motor vehicle that is towing a trailer in excess of 10,000 lbs, you are supposed to possess what is called a "non-exempt CDL Class A" license.



It's important to check your state statutes regarding licensing requirements regarding heavy towed loads, or operating heavy motor vehicles, particularly RV's (In Texas if the vehicle weighs 26,001 lbs or more a non-exempt CDL Class B is required for private operators). The statutes can be very confusing because they are not necessarily specific for non-commercial operators and they are not necessarily easy to find.



I'm under the impression that these weight related statutes are not stringently enforced because I've asked several law-enforcement officers from different jurisdictions about the requirements regarding private, non-commercial operators and they are typically not aware of the requirements. I went in person to a DPS office in Hurst, Tx and it took a supervisor and about 20 minutes of her fumbling around on the phone and with the Texas Drivers Handbook in hand to tell me what the official requirements are. There were several DPS Troopers coming and going and they all kept quiet with no one volunteering info regarding requirements. I was under the impression they were unaware of the requirements. I have not procured my "non-exempt Class A CDL" license yet but I fully intend to.



Texas requires a "written test" which I was told at the DPS office is actually on the computer and once that is passed you schedule a practical (driving) test with an evaluator in your truck with your trailer. They make it a PITA ! It's not overly difficult to hitch up my fifth wheel but it's also not a casual undertaking either. Mine is 42' overall length and weighs as operated,,,,, 18500 lbs with a max gross weight of 21,000 lbs.



Also, on the advice of my attorney, he strongly recommends not exceeding any Mfg weight ratings but to keep in mind that GAWR, GVWR, and DOT tire ratings should be treated as inviolate. GCWR in all reality is more related to application of warranty coverage or denial thereof if the operator is known to have exceeded the max GCWR and a claim is pending.



I've written several posts regarding the above issues (and no,,,,I'm not the internet weight police), I'm just a careful and responsible motorist. I've never had a CDL license and I don't want one but I've got over thirty years experience in operating heavy machinery (jets) in complex, highly regulated environments with a LOT of "official" scrutiny. I do understand how to get answers regarding regulatory issues and I'm also convinced that in our (the nation's) current fiscal environment, it's going to be more and more important that one be in compliance with all regulations and/or laws without risking substantial fines. Take a look at the fiscal responsibility (or more accurately the lack therof) of virtually any and all govenments local to Federal and I'm convinced that a fiscal insanity virus has infected our society,,,,,, but that's another story !!



Regulatory bodies are starting to look at "compliance" issues more and more as revenue generating "opportunity's". Word to the wise is to be in compliance !!

 

[HBarlow]

In Texas, as a private, not for hire, operator of a motor vehicle that is towing a trailer in excess of 10,000 lbs, you are supposed to possess what is called a "non-exempt CDL Class A" license.

It's important to check your state statutes regarding licensing requirements regarding heavy towed loads, or operating heavy motor vehicles, particularly RV's (In Texas if the vehicle weighs 26,001 lbs or more a non-exempt CDL Class B is required for private operators). The statutes can be very confusing because they are not necessarily specific for non-commercial operators and they are not necessarily easy to find.

I'm under the impression that these weight related statutes are not stringently enforced because I've asked several law-enforcement officers from different jurisdictions about the requirements regarding private, non-commercial operators and they are typically not aware of the requirements. I went in person to a DPS office in Hurst, Tx and it took a supervisor and about 20 minutes of her fumbling around on the phone and with the Texas Drivers Handbook in hand to tell me what the official requirements are. There were several DPS Troopers coming and going and they all kept quiet with no one volunteering info regarding requirements. I was under the impression they were unaware of the requirements. I have not procured my "non-exempt Class A CDL" license yet but I fully intend to.

Texas requires a "written test" which I was told at the DPS office is actually on the computer and once that is passed you schedule a practical (driving) test with an evaluator in your truck with your trailer. They make it a PITA ! It's not overly difficult to hitch up my fifth wheel but it's also not a casual undertaking either. Mine is 42' overall length and weighs as operated,,,,, 18500 lbs with a max gross weight of 21,000 lbs.

Also, on the advice of my attorney, he strongly recommends not exceeding any Mfg weight ratings but to keep in mind that GAWR, GVWR, and DOT tire ratings should be treated as inviolate. GCWR in all reality is more related to application of warranty coverage or denial thereof if the operator is known to have exceeded the max GCWR and a claim is pending.

I've written several posts regarding the above issues (and no,,,,I'm not the internet weight police), I'm just a careful and responsible motorist. I've never had a CDL license and I don't want one but I've got over thirty years experience in operating heavy machinery (jets) in complex, highly regulated environments with a LOT of "official" scrutiny. I do understand how to get answers regarding regulatory issues and I'm also convinced that in our (the nation's) current fiscal environment, it's going to be more and more important that one be in compliance with all regulations and/or laws without risking substantial fines. Take a look at the fiscal responsibility (or more accurately the lack therof) of virtually any and all govenments local to Federal and I'm convinced that a fiscal insanity virus has infected our society,,,,,, but that's another story !!

Regulatory bodies are starting to look at "compliance" issues more and more as revenue generating "opportunity's". Word to the wise is to be in compliance !!

I generally agree with what you wrote with minor exceptions. Those of us in Texas and many other states who are not commercial but tow heavy trailers are now required to have the proper license. An ordinary Class C operator license is not satisfactory and can earn a ticket for those who do it.

The distinction between using an ordinary Class C operator license commonly described as a driver's license and a non-commercial Class A operator license is weights of truck and trailer. The way DOT including in Texas determines that is by adding the GVWR of the truck to the GVWR of the trailer or by using scale weight, whichever is greater. The point is this: If the truck and trailer are rated to be able to exceed 26,000 lbs. it is assumed that they will.

If the truck has, like my 3500 C&C, a GVWR of 12,500 and my trailer has a GVWR of 14,100, the total is 26,600 and I am required to have a Class A non-commercial license. It doesn't matter to DOT if my truck only weighs 11,000 lbs on the scale and my trailer only weighs 13,000 lbs on the scales, my truck and trailer are rated in excess of 26,000 lbs. The other requirement in this is that the trailer must be rated at or weigh more than 10k to trigger the CDL or non-commercial requirement.

Actually, the proper license for you is the one I have now, a TX non-commercial Class A Operator License. I decided last year that I don't plan to ever haul trailers commercially again and didn't want the stricter application of ordinary laws like speed limits that go along with a CDL A so I surrendered my Class A CDL for a Class A operator license which allows me to tow the same weights but not commercially. I didn't have to test, I had already done all that.

Several people have scoffed at my claim, even figured I was lying, but I got a CDL Class A. legal for commercial hauling in any state with no weight limit, using an '06 Ram dually pickup and a borrowed flatbed gooseneck tandem axle dual wheel trailer. It is very easy to do. Ditto the Class A operator license. Actual testing may be intentionally tougher when administered by a licensed trooper in some districts than I experienced in Lubbock several years ago.

I went down to the local Lubbock DPS office, took the computerized CDL exams passing with high scores, borrowed a trailer, and took the pleasant and attractive civilian woman examiner for a brief ride. We rode along and had a pleasant talk as I drove and followed her directions. The only thing I did not have that OTR drivers have and must have is an airbrake endorsement. I couldn't borrow an air brake truck on short notice and didn't need the airbrake endorsement anyway. I took and passed the computer exams for air brake endorsement but didn't have a truck for the practical driving test.

 

[RustyJC]

In Texas, as a private, not for hire, operator of a motor vehicle that is towing a trailer in excess of 10,000 lbs, you are supposed to possess what is called a "non-exempt CDL Class A" license.

Only if GCWR > 26,000 lbs.

Texas Transportation Code



Sec. 521. 081. CLASS A LICENSE. A Class A driver's license authorizes the holder of the license to operate:



(1) a vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more; or



(2) a combination of vehicles that has a gross combination weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more, if the gross vehicle weight rating of any vehicle or vehicles in tow is more than 10,000 pounds.



Acts 1995, 74th Leg. , ch. 165, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995.

GCWR is defined as follows:

Texas Transportation Code



Sec. 522. 003. DEFINITIONS.



(17) "Gross combination weight rating" means the value specified by the manufacturer as the loaded weight of a combination or articulated vehicle or, if the manufacturer has not specified a value, the sum of the gross vehicle weight rating of the power unit and the total weight of the towed unit or units and any load on a towed unit.

That's why you see so many trucks (mine included) with a 26,000 lb GCWR specified by the manufacturer.



Rusty

 

[AHolbert]

HBarlow, I know what license I need when I haul my fifth wheel... ... ... . I'm not real sure what it is that you don't agree with regarding what I wrote. The Class A definition from the Texas Drivers Handbook states that "or vehicles towed exceeds 10,000 lbs".



Yes, in the definition section there is a combination weight clause that I believe you are referring to, but for the sake of brevity and the fact that the fifth wheels and trailers that have been mentioned are well above 10,000 lbs, the combination weight portion of the definition is not germaine to the discussion. It is true that the Class A license requirement comes into play if the combination of vehicles weight ratings exceed 26,001 pounds though (check the Texas Commercial Drivers Handbook) ! By definition (in Texas), if I pull a 14000lb GVWR rated trailer with my 12,500 GVWR rated Ram 3500, I am not in compliance with the law if I am not in possession of the "non-exempt Class A CDL"(As per the Texas DPS office in Hurst).



The license may very well be called something else, I am merely reporting what I have been told by a local DPS office. I had visited two other DPS offices and had no success at all on those visits in my quest for an answer, which is why I'm under the impression that in Texas, the requirements don't seem to be carefully enforced for the private, non-commercial operator. I do know that anytime one is dealing with any government bureacracy and you don't quite fit their version of normal,,,,,,orthe situation is not within the 99% of what they deal with on a daily basis, it takes a little digging to get an accurate answer. That's one of the ramifications of complexity and it's something I commonly deal with in my professional life.



If you want to play lawyer, we can start another thread but I'm going to be the first to tell you that what I tell you or anyone else is not legal advice. I can share with you what I've been told or maybe refer you to the relevant Texas State Handbook, website, etc.



The main point to what we're talking about is one needs to check their state statutes to determine what they will need in the way of a DL to be in compliance with the law. I was simply trying to illuminate what the state of Texas requires and how it affects my particular application.



Again, I would highly recommend to anyone reading this blog to check with your state licensing regulatory body and get whatever license you need to remain in compliance with the law.



I can almost guarantee you that as fiscal problems in our great country continue to boil over, it will be more and more common for states to look at this issue more and more and they will see fines for non-compliance as a potential source of revenue ! Besides, we all have a responsibility to operate our trucks in a proper and safe manner and it's our individual responsibility to understand the relevant limitations whether they're by statute or manufacturer design.

 

[RustyJC]

I've also checked with the DPS and been told that, unless the GCWR is > 26,000 lbs as stated explicitly in the Texas Transportation Code statute I cited, a non-commercial Class A is NOT required. The GCWR-related triggering requirement for a Class A is most definitely germane to the discussion. Let's parse it.

(2) a combination of vehicles that has a gross combination weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more, if the gross vehicle weight rating of any vehicle or vehicles in tow is more than 10,000 pounds.

See the "if" in the definition? It means that a non-commercial Class A is required for a combination of vehicles that has a gross combination weight rating (GCWR) of 26,001 pounds or more IF AND ONLY IF the towed load's GVWR is more than 10,000 pounds. Since my vehicle has a GCWR of less than 26,001 pounds, this entire section doesn't apply to me regardless of the towed load.



Unfortunately, my experience has been that, if you ask 10 DPS troopers for their interpretation, you'll get 10 different answers. What really matters at the end of the day is what the law says. That's why I carry the relevant portions of the Texas Transportation Code as well as Dodge's GCWR ratings in my truck.



Rusty

 

[HBarlow]

HBarlow, I know what license I need when I haul my fifth wheel... ... ... . I'm not real sure what it is that you don't agree with regarding what I wrote. The Class A definition from the Texas Drivers Handbook states that "or vehicles towed exceeds 10,000 lbs".

Yes, in the definition section there is a combination weight clause that I believe you are referring to, but for the sake of brevity and the fact that the fifth wheels and trailers that have been mentioned are well above 10,000 lbs, the combination weight portion of the definition is not germaine to the discussion. It is true that the Class A license requirement comes into play if the combination of vehicles weight ratings exceed 26,001 pounds though (check the Texas Commercial Drivers Handbook) ! By definition (in Texas), if I pull a 14000lb GVWR rated trailer with my 12,500 GVWR rated Ram 3500, I am not in compliance with the law if I am not in possession of the "non-exempt Class A CDL"(As per the Texas DPS office in Hurst).

The license may very well be called something else, I am merely reporting what I have been told by a local DPS office. I had visited two other DPS offices and had no success at all on those visits in my quest for an answer, which is why I'm under the impression that in Texas, the requirements don't seem to be carefully enforced for the private, non-commercial operator. I do know that anytime one is dealing with any government bureacracy and you don't quite fit their version of normal,,,,,,orthe situation is not within the 99% of what they deal with on a daily basis, it takes a little digging to get an accurate answer. That's one of the ramifications of complexity and it's something I commonly deal with in my professional life.

If you want to play lawyer, we can start another thread but I'm going to be the first to tell you that what I tell you or anyone else is not legal advice. I can share with you what I've been told or maybe refer you to the relevant Texas State Handbook, website, etc.

The main point to what we're talking about is one needs to check their state statutes to determine what they will need in the way of a DL to be in compliance with the law. I was simply trying to illuminate what the state of Texas requires and how it affects my particular application.

Again, I would highly recommend to anyone reading this blog to check with your state licensing regulatory body and get whatever license you need to remain in compliance with the law.

I can almost guarantee you that as fiscal problems in our great country continue to boil over, it will be more and more common for states to look at this issue more and more and they will see fines for non-compliance as a potential source of revenue ! Besides, we all have a responsibility to operate our trucks in a proper and safe manner and it's our individual responsibility to understand the relevant limitations whether they're by statute or manufacturer design.

After carefully reading this twice I am confident in declaring you've either forgotten or didn't understand what you were told. It's clear you don't know what you are citing here so I will ignore it.

BTW, just out of curiosity, what in the world is a "Non-exempt" anything?

 

[AHolbert]

SUBCHAPTER D. CLASSIFICATION OF DRIVER'S LICENSESSec. 521. 081. CLASS A LICENSE. A Class A driver's license authorizes the holder of the license to operate1) a vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more; or(2) a combination of vehicles that has a gross combination weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more, if the gross vehicle weight rating of any vehicle or vehicles in tow is more than 10,000 pounds





Again, I don't care about trying to match wits, or playing lets stump the dummy. I am merely reporting what I was told at DPS on my third try at getting an accurate answer. I have since looked up some of the relevant statutes and they seem to be in harmony with what I was told in Hurst at the Texas DPS office by a supervisor that made a call to Austin in my presence... ... ... .



The way I intrepret the statute is the Class A is needed if either my vehicle's GVWR is 26,001 or greater (not towing) or my GCWR is 26,001 lbs or greater IF the vehicle in tow has a GVWR greater than 10,000lbs. We could go on with other scenarios regarding weight of towed versus towing vehicles but the intent of the statute seems to be not exceeding 26001lbs of GVWR or GCWR without a Class A license.



Reading the above statute and applying it to my application,,,,,,I need a Class A license. The truck's GVWR is 12,500 lbs and the fifth wheel is 21000lbs. That places me well above 26001. Are you saying I do not need a Class A License to be in compliance with Texas state statutes when I'm hauling my fifth whell ? Will you provide me with legal counsel in the event of a citation or suit for non-compliance to licensing requirements as laid out in the great state of Texas if I don't procure my Class A License ?



The scenario/application that was used at my trip to the Hurst DPS office in my attempt to get into compliance with the law was what I described above, truck GVWR of 12500 and trailer GVWR of 21000. I was emphatically told (after the phone call to Austin) I would need a "non-exempt Class A CDL" whatever that is !! I was shown the statute above and a few others and given the Commercial Drivers License Handbook to study in preparation for the test along with a brief description of the licensing process.



Again, the bottom line is that I don't care whether I'm currently correct in my interpretation of the statutes as long as I become or remain in compliance for the next time I pull my fifth wheel. The state doesn't make the answer easy without either spending a bunch of time chasing down people at the DPS or maybe paying an attorney a couple hundred an hour to tell me what the law is relevant to my application.



So far you don't have me convinced that you're readng the statute correctly. Show me/us the relevant statutes that would apply for a non-commercial operator to legally tow with a GCWR in excess of 26,001 lbs with a run of the mill 3500 Ram with a GVWR of 11000 lbs. This seems to be your argument, truck is <26,001 lbs GVWR so a Class A is not needed even though the weight of my towed load is well above 10,000 lbs ? Truck and trailer together weighed on the scales nearly 28,000 lbs, what license are you saying I need ? I'm out of time and will check back later... .....

 

[HBarlow]

AHobert,

You are apparently having as much difficulty reading and understanding my post as you are with reading and understanding the TX statutes.

Your attitude reflects anger, and a big chip on your shoulder so you can figure it out yourself. If and when you do, you'll see that I was telling you the true and accurate regulations and explaining it in ordinary lay terms.

 

[RustyJC]

I'm not going to beat a dead horse. Let's go back to what the law says:

Texas Transportation Code



Sec. 522. 003. DEFINITIONS.



(17) "Gross combination weight rating" means the value specified by the manufacturer as the loaded weight of a combination or articulated vehicle or, if the manufacturer has not specified a value, the sum of the gross vehicle weight rating of the power unit and the total weight of the towed unit or units and any load on a towed unit.

Which value for GCWR takes precedence in the above? The summation methodology used by the DPS resource you cite comes into play when? Answer: IF and ONLY IF the manufacturer has not specified a value for GCWR. So, has Dodge specified a value for GCWR? Answer: Yes, 26,000 lbs in my case, and that is documentable (that's why I carry it with me). So, under the laws of the State of Texas, I'm not required to have a non-commercial Class A license.



I applaud you for getting one. It certainly covers most non-commercial situations you're likely to face. That's a different matter, however, than saying the LAW in Texas requires one if you're towing a trailer that weighs over 10,000 pounds. In my case, the law doesn't require one. Aside from all that, my rig doesn't weigh 26,000 lbs.



If the manufacturer's GCWR rating didn't matter in cases like this, why do so many manufacturers struggle so hard to stay under the 26,001 pound GCWR threshold?

"Gross combination weight rating" means the value specified by the manufacturer... .

A sterling (no pun intended) example are Dodge's C&C trucks. The reason this 26,000 pound GCWR rating barrier is so important is when the manufacturers' rating for a vehicle's GCWR exceeds 26,000 pounds, a whole new world opens up for driver's license requirements.



Now, if I had waited and ordered one of the just-announced 2011. 5 HO 3500 duallies with the 30,000 pound GCWR, my 16,000 pound GVWR 5th wheel would, according to the law, kick me up into the territory where a non-commercial Class A would indeed be required since (1. ) the manufacturer's GCWR is over 26,001 pounds and (2. ) the towed load is over 10,000 pounds.



Rusty

 

[HBarlow]

I'm not going to beat a dead horse. Let's go back to what the law says:



Which value for GCWR takes precedence in the above? The summation methodology used by the DPS resource you cite comes into play when? Answer: IF and ONLY IF the manufacturer has not specified a value for GCWR. So, has Dodge specified a value for GCWR? Answer: Yes, 26,000 lbs in my case, and that is documentable (that's why I carry it with me). So, under the laws of the State of Texas, I'm not required to have a non-commercial Class A license.


I applaud you for getting one. It certainly covers most non-commercial situations you're likely to face. That's a different matter, however, than saying the LAW in Texas requires one. In my case, it doesn't. Aside from all that, my rig doesn't weigh 26,000 lbs.

If the manufacturer's GCWR rating didn't matter in cases like this, why do so many manufacturers struggle so hard to stay under the 26,001 pound GCWR threshold?



A sterling (no pun intended) example are Dodge's C&C trucks. The reason this 26,000 pound GCWR rating barrier is so important is when the manufacturers' rating for a vehicle's GCWR exceeds 26,000 pounds, a whole new world opens up for driver's license requirements.

Rusty

I strongly disagree. What is your working definition of "specified a value?" What do you carry that "specifies" the manufacturer's GCWR? Are you talking about carrying an advertising brochure? My experience with DOT enforcement officers and scale operators nationwide is if the number is not on the VIN plate or VIN decal it doesn't exist.

Haven't you previously stated here in the forum that your fifthwheel has a GVWR of 15k or perhaps more? And a Ram 3500 has a GVWR of 12,500. By my math that total rated weight is 27,500. How are you going to hide behind a manufacturer's GCWR as proof you don't need a Class A operator license when you are exceeding that weight or rated weight?

You will find that your interpretation would get you a ticket and an out of service order until someone with a CDL A showed up to haul your trailer away if you were hauling your trailer with your truck for hire in any other state. As a private RV hauler other states may or may not be familiar with the TX Class A Operator License regulations. I don't know how a TX DPS commercial enforcement trooper will interpret that but I don't think it will fly.

As I wrote above and have written many times, DOT enforcement considers scale weight only IF the operator has a Class A license permitting him to operate at any legal weight. If the operator has only a Class C operator license DOT will consider not only actual scale weight but rated capacity --- that weight which the vehicles COULD be operated at. In other words, they add the GVWR of tow and GVWR of towed vehicles. Before I had a CDL A I had a WY enforcement officer take me out to my truck and he added the GVWR of my truck and GVWR of the trailer I was pulling. That is the way it is enforced. I had already crossed the scale and he knew that my actual weight was well under 26k.

Regardless of what you have convinced yourself of, you need a Class A operator license. Trying to play lawyer with a TX DPS commercial enforcement officer by showing him your "manufacturer's specified combined weight" is not going to get you very far.

You're confusing GVWR and GCWR when you speak of manufacturer's struggling to stay under 26k GCWR. No manufacturer does that for a utility body or box truck chassis.

It is GVWR that manufacturers often strive to stay under so that a company buying a chassis to mount a box to have a box truck for package, furniture, or appliance delivery doesn't have to hire and pay a driver with a CDL A or B. Take Lowe's Home Improvement for example. With a box truck rated GVWR of 25,999 lbs. as some are, they can hire ordinary minimum wage employees, even TTU student part-timers to deliver appliances.

You're relying on nothing more than a reading of the TX statute to convince yourself you are now an expert on the subject. The world of commercial trucking and enforcement regulations and interpretation is much larger than you are aware of. The regulations are confusing until you work within it awhile, are forced to experience a few DOT inspections, and realize how they think, interpret, and enforce the regulations. I had the benefit of a week of training by the safety and compliance managers of a professionally run RV transport company who knew how the system works on a nationwide basis followed by three years of operating with the regulations. I had lots of experiences and talked to 100s of drivers who got into trouble. I ended up setting up a compliance program for a small transport company that was doing everything wrong and had been getting away with it for awhile. Their drivers began getting nailed all over the US so they became more interested in DOT compliance.

 

[RustyJC]

Harvey,



I don't disagree with your assessment of how the DOT commercial trucking world operates. The law defining GCWR is very clear, however. It is first and foremost the manufacturer's rating - that's clearly what the words say, right? In response to your question, the documentation I carry is the applicable table from the Dodge body builder's guide that specifies my truck has a 26,000 lb GCWR.



Yes, under the summation method you cite, my truck has a GVWR of 11,500 lbs and my 5th wheel has a GVWR of 16,000 lbs, so if that method were used, I'm at 27,500 lbs.



Harvey, if the manufacturer's GCWR rating isn't important (even though it's the first priority definition of GCWR in Section 522. 003 (17)), please explain the following from the Dodge body builder's guide for the beefiest truck in Dodge's stable:



Dodge 5500 C&C, Cummins 6. 7L, Aisin 6 speed:



GVWR = 19,500 lbs

GCWR = 26,000 lbs



GCWR is the same 26,000 lbs as my truck. Why do you think Dodge is holding it under 26,001 lbs? You know this truck is used by oil field hot shotters running up to 40,000 lbs. So, why didn't Dodge go ahead and rate it for, let's say, a GCWR of 35,000 lbs, or even 27,000 lbs? Could it have anything to do with driver license requirements? What other explanation is there, given the 26,001 lb threshold for the Class A licenses?



Again, I'm not disputing how the DOT commercial trucking world operates. I'm just pointing out what the Texas Transportation Code states. I guess if I (and many other non-commercial RVers) ever draw the attention of the Texas DPS, I'll have to be willing to take it to court to put my money where my mouth is.



Rusty

 

[HBarlow]

Harvey,

I don't disagree with your assessment of how the DOT commercial trucking world operates. The law defining GCWR is very clear, however. It is first and foremost the manufacturer's rating - that's clearly what the words say, right? In response to your question, the documentation I carry is the applicable table from the Dodge body builder's guide that specifies my truck has a 26,000 lb GCWR.

Yes, under the summation method you cite, my truck has a GVWR of 11,500 lbs and my 5th wheel has a GVWR of 16,000 lbs, so if that method were used, I'm at 27,500 lbs.

Harvey, if the manufacturer's GCWR rating isn't important (even though it's the first priority definition of GCWR in Section 522. 003 (17)), please explain the following from the Dodge body builder's guide for the beefiest truck in Dodge's stable:

Dodge 5500 C&C, Cummins 6. 7L, Aisin 6 speed:

GVWR = 19,500 lbs
GCWR = 26,000 lbs

GCWR is the same 26,000 lbs as my truck. Why do you think Dodge is holding it under 26,001 lbs? You know this truck is used by oil field hot shotters running up to 40,000 lbs. So, why didn't Dodge go ahead and rate it for, let's say, a GCWR of 35,000 lbs, or even 27,000 lbs? Could it have anything to do with driver license requirements? What other explanation is there, given the 26,001 lb threshold for the Class A licenses?

Again, I'm not disputing how the DOT commercial trucking world operates. I'm just pointing out what the Texas Transportation Code states. I guess if I (and many other non-commercial RVers) ever draw the attention of the Texas DPS, I'll have to be willing to take it to court to put my money where my mouth is.

Rusty

Rusty,

I think you have stated engineering is your profession. You were trained to read and rely on the written word. You use written guidelines, written engineering specs, written test results, etc. You are trained to read, understand, recognize errors and conflicts, and interpret.

Out in the real world where DOT law enforcement officers operate that is not the case. They studied state statutes to only achieve basic mastery to become commissioned leos but they are not attorneys and do not spend time reading and interpreting the nuances of the law. Their sergeants and training officers taught them scale weight or rated weight for non commmercial drivers. They are extremely unlikely to be willing to read, rely on, and interpret a printed document of unknown and unprovable origin that conflicts with their training. Your builder's guide may as well be an old '50s comic book to them. If you ever encounter them, they'll observe that you don't have a Class A CDL or operator's license, write the ticket, put you out of service, and order you to park it and leave the trailer.

Think about their perspective. They don't know what a builder's guide is and have no way of knowing if it is applicable, accurate, original, or phony as a counterfeit bill. It carries no more weight than a note signed by your mother saying it is okay.

If there is a conflict in the statute, it is not up to them to sort it out. That is the job of the judge or the legislature.

The reason why a Ram 5500 has a GVWR of 19,500 is because Ram engineers determined that is the limit of the capability of the truck's frame, suspension, running gear, and brakes. The same truck has a GCWR of 26k because that is the limit prescribed by the Dana engineers who built the rear axle. Several years ago when I was considering a Ram C&C and tossing around the choices I was exchanging emails with Bill Stockard. Bill found and sent me a link to the Dana website for the page for the Dana axle used in the Ram 4500/5500s. The limit is 26,000 lbs.

Consider this: My truck has a GVWR of 12,500 and a GCWR of 24k, IIRC. My trailer has a GVWR of 14,100. My CWR is 26,600 and actual combined weight is actually about 25k. I am required to have and do have a Class A operator license. Your truck has a GVWR of 12,500 and your trailer a GVWR of 16k. Your CWR is 26k, your rated weight total is 27,500 by DOT method, and actual scale weight is probably about 26, or more. Your truck and trailer combo is clearly heavier than mine. You believe you are not required to have and do not have a Class A operator license. The purpose of a Class A operator license is to address the highway safety issues and risks inherent in untrained and unskilled private operators driving and towing extremely heavy combined loads on the public highways. Does it make sense to you that because Ram upgraded the tow rating of your rear axle by 2k that you are legal without a Class A operator license while I, with less combined weight, am not?

 

[RustyJC]

Harvey, I guess I'll have to drop the trailer and go to court. The law says what the law says, and I conform to the law. If the DPS practices conflict with the law as it is written, then that's why they have lawyers, judges and juries. By your interpretation, I'd be legal with a Class C towing our 16,000 GVWR 5th wheel with a 2500 with, say, a 9,200 lb GVWR (9,200 + 16,000 = 25,200 lbs) even though I'd be WAY over the truck's GVWR, but I'm not with my 11,500 lb GVWR dually. Does that make sense? I don't think so.



I've been towing 5th wheels since 1996 and haven't had a problem to date, so I certainly don't fall under the "newbie" classification, and the classification of license I have isn't going to make me any more or less safe.



I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.



Rusty

 

[HBarlow]

Okay, I'll agree to that.

 

[HBarlow]

Rusty,

I was puzzled today when you introduced the definition of gross combined weight rating and placed such emphasis on it. I couldn't locate my TX Driver's Handbook but didn't remember ever reading the definition in the statute with that emphasis placed on it.

I pulled up the statute and the definition and read and thought about both for a minute.

I think the reason for our disagreement and what I consider your misunderstanding is DOT enforcement officers interpret the concept of the manufacturer providing the GCWR spec as stamping it on the VIN tag. If it isn't there, it is not provided.

That explains why I never thought about the definition or heard anyone in commercial hauling refer to it. LEOs don't acknowledge it. Their field interpretation, the one actually used in all enforcement, is what is on the GVWR tags. That's why they add the GVWR on each vehicle to arrive at the GCWR.

Everyone know what the phrase "gross combined weight rating" means in ordinary lay terms. The definition you offer as the key to your position is not referenced in the actual Class A license statute or even considered by enforcement officers. I think you will find a blank look and dismissal if you attempt to use your builder's guide.

But, as you said, we will have to agree to disagree and I agree.

 

[RustyJC]

I think the reason for our disagreement and what I consider your misunderstanding is DOT enforcement officers interpret the concept of the manufacturer providing the GCWR spec as stamping it on the VIN tag. If it isn't there, it is not provided.

But that's not what the statute says, is it? As I said, the courts will have to decide if it comes to that.



Rusty

 

[Wiredawg]

All,



I never fail to learn something new on the TDR, whether happy with the knowledg or not. Soounds like I need a Class A non CDL drivers license. My 4500 is rated at 16,500 lbs GVWR and my 5er GVWR is 18,000 lbs. My total actual weight is 28,300 Lbs for both.



I'm off tomorrow and will go to the DPS office in Universal City to tell my story, tell them my weights and ask what I need to do. I'll tell y'all the outcome.



Wiredawg

 

[Brianpump]

In response to Harlscher

As far as my towing experience I do not surrently own the Teton thtat I towed. I am speaking from thousands of miles of towinr that and other trailers. Once I gad both inner duals with bad valve stems drove about 60 miles wondering why it felt loose in the rear so I stopped and found the inners both flat. Had them fixed and a whole new experiance. Would never tow heavy with a single rear wheel rig again. And yes it was a fifth wheel. As far as being worried no I never was worried except in LA traffic whare idiots will swerve in front of you with kess than a foot between your front bumper and their rear. Again I say the better the equipment you have and common sense go along way to safe travel. I have seen propably more medium duty pullers toraled because the owners get lax and cocky. I just get tired of some who may or may not have direct experence trying to preach you will automatically have legal issues if you are a few pounds overweight. I have not every post but the other thing to consider is if you are grossley over weight it will cause alot of wear and tear issues. However hot shotters have been grossing well over 39,000 for years without alot of issues. If you do keep the 2699 at least put a max brake controller or equivilamt and an exhaust brake. All in all I feel you will be better ahead with a new truck rated to pull that load day in and day out. Brian

 

[Brianpump]

Oops need to check my posts for spelling and other issues alot better. Sorry guys had to beat you to it. Brian

 

[HBarlow]

But that's not what the statute says, is it? As I said, the courts will have to decide if it comes to that.

Rusty

Rusty,

Well, actually the statute does use the word "rating" but you're applying an engineer's analytical thinking and precise interpretation to the problem and that's not the way DOT troopers see it. Your way is to read the statute and then read the definition to determine what the law meant. You understand the definition so you pull out a document that contains that info. Carrying that document makes you one in a million traveling the highways on any given day and the document carriers no official authentication. The problem is new to you so your solution makes perfect sense to you. It happens to be the first year that a Ram pickup ever had a GCWR of 26k. The laws, the trucks, the trailers, and the challenges have been around for a long time before you became a participant.

The issue is far larger than you, your truck, and your trailer. DOT cops nationwide have been enforcing those regulations for many years with nothing more than the regulations, scales, VIN stickers, and tire ratings. Their way is long accepted practice. You won't change them.

Troopers have no way to know what the manufacturer says the GCWR of a particular vehicle is so long ago it was established that VIN tags are the way the manufacturer provides any weights that are required by law.

Thousands of light truck owners, most often Ram dually owners, have been using their trucks for commercial hauling since Cummins engines were installed in Dodge pickups to haul heavy trailers. Those trucks initially had very low manufacturer's gross combined weight ratings. A figure down around 16k or so and has gradually increased over time. In all the years leading up to MY10 or MY11, GCWR was much less than the weights actually carried. If DOT troopers had enforced weight limits based on mfr's GCWR we would have never seen a Ram dually pulling a tandem dually gooseneck flatbed loaded with general cargo or oilfield supplies.

I won't change your mind and that is okay. This is for the many silent readers who read and learn from what we post here.