triple lock TC

[Cummins Corvette]

I've done my best to explain it. Yes, the clutches and bands are taking most of the slippage. The dampener helps some too. Go back and re-read my other post if you don't understand how this works without wearing thints out or breaking things. Better yet, call Clint. He can explain it better than I can. The number for ATS is 303 431-7973. Clint and company are too busy to spend much/any time here; this is why I am trying to help out. Remember, they are in the shop until the wee hours of the morning many days.

 

[LSMITH]

Jason, and everyone else for that matter, the locked shifting is not the rule at ATS. It can be done, but it is not the rule. The DTT and BD can be shifted locked just as easy as the ATS. It can be hard on parts, and will be hard on parts if done every time. The TC will live, and the transmission will live as set up by ATS. What will suffer is the life of clutch packs. If the TC does not disengage the force must be taken somewhere. As CC alluded to, the timing of the shift and precise balance of the shift apply/friction coefficient will take a great deal of the wear out. It can be done and is every day, The Allison is a valid comparison too, they do it and if we do it the same way what is the difference? It must be done right, do it on a stocker or a transmission not set up for it and you have a war story to tell in no time. The allison example applies because it is the same technology with different parts in the transmission itself.





I would suggest that you (or anyone else) call them at ATS to get the WHOLE story rather than rely on what some members remember form conversations that were likely over our technical transmission heads to begin with. Members are trying to help like I am trying here, but again, please get the whole story.





No one thinks twice about calling Bill K, call him and then call ATS or vice versa. Then put your two bits in on this with some of what you remember. It is about learning and should stay that way.

 

[Cummins Corvette]

Originally posted by LSMITH

The DTT and BD can be shifted locked just as easy as the ATS.

Ummmm... ..... no. If you shift locked to locked with a transmission that is not set up for it, then you will have a much higher chance of breaking things.

 

[JHansen]

I've pretty much got what my small Canadian brain will handle for right now anyways... ... Howard is correct anyways. I will be sitting down with Bill at the Diesel Dyno Stampede in July before/after the festivities for a little tech talk. ATS will have to wait-prefer to hear it face-to-face and I ain't going to Denver for a long time!



Still waiting for my PM.



Jason

 

[GLASMITHS]

I have re-read so many of Bill K. s' old posts; back a couple of years. So many times he has chimed in to help someone who was asking for advise, ect, and not always trannys. Yet not once have I seen other vendors (except for DTT installers) ever give free advice. Fred Swanson comes to mind



It is understandable if a persons just doesn't have time. No problem for me. But why then does he have time for long telephone calls and hours to spend with visitors. Get a life.

They just don't stand up for their product when it is under the light. Repeating, silence implies either ignorance or stealth.



Yes the methods and all has been explained, now we can wait.



CUMMINS CORVETTE: I went to the site you supplied. Thanks. But what kind of furniture is he hawling? 26K in that little trailer. If you belive all the hype on these sites, I got some stock in a certain bridge, real cheap

 

[LSMITH]

Originally posted by Cummins Corvette





Ummmm... ..... no. If you shift locked to locked with a transmission that is not set up for it, then you will have a much higher chance of breaking things.

Did I say it would be problem free? NO! It can be done just as easily though. Please read carefully before correction.

 

[LSMITH]

Posted by GLASMITHS







"It is understandable if a persons just doesn't have time. No problem for me. But why then does he have time for long telephone calls and hours to spend with visitors. Get a life.

They just don't stand up for their product when it is under the light. Repeating, silence implies either ignorance or stealth. "







Did you ever stop to think that his job is just exactly that, helping his customers? Maybe the phone calls are taking the time to not post to you. Calling them ignorant and liars is not called for and ignorant on your part. Please do the research before proclaiming knowlegde, or not post.

 

[Cummins Corvette]

Originally posted by LSMITH





Did I say it would be problem free? NO! It can be done just as easily though. Please read carefully before correction.

Well you can do it with a stock transmission for that matter, eh? What is your point?

 

[LSMITH]

Did you read my post? My point was, and still is, that it can be hard on things. If you are going to do it it needs to be done right.

 

[Strick-9]

Cummins Corvette,



I know you were trying to help by using me as an example, but please don't. I welded a set of clutches together, but I didn't do it during a shift. A well known transmission 'expert' on the TDR (not Bill) told me to go out and do a stall test in reverse to see what happened. He was trying to diagnose something and was used to working with milled stators and their inherent lack of torque multiplication. I simply overpowered the clutch pack. That's what torque muliplication will do for you. Once my straight pipe got wound up with all the smoke and noise of a power brake, I couldn't tell if the transmission was slipping or not. Then when I placed the transmission back in 'drive' to go home, I found out the clutch pack was welded up.



Since we're talking about how crucial shift timing is. Is the timing of the 3-4 shift in our trannies dictated by fluid flow or something else? I'll put it more bluntly. Can the overlap of the 3-4 shift be changed in the valvebody or does it require removal of the overdrive housing?



Another thing. In all areas of motorsports, shift kits are sold for autos. The major theme is quicker shifts allow the clutches to slip less and last longer. You sacrifice some driveability, but everything is a trade off. With mega horsepower you are fighting a constant battle between clutch slippage and parts breakage. The faster the clutches come on, the less they wear, but the higher the probability you will break a shaft. Simple trade off, right.



Why do people get so easily conned into believing now there is a 'perfect' engagement speed that only one vendor can obtain. And this will result in ZERO clutch wear/ smooth shifting/ and zero parts breakage.



Why are the laws of physics different for our trucks?

People are so sick of transmission troubles we are willing to believe just about anything that people tell us. As a group of customers we are very gullable. The great thing about trannies is they will take a ton of abuse before failing. Then after 8 - 12 months a 'new and improved' version is out and people are forgiving and ready to buy the new version.



I really want to get into the transmission design business.

-Chris

 

[Cummins Corvette]

Which one of these is the true story?

Originally posted by Strick-9



I bought my truck two days after it got a new transmission.



I immediately started increasing the horsepower and installed a mystery switch. I shifted locked to locked all the time. I had 260-280 HP in four months. In that same amount of time, I completely destroyed that transmission.



It wasn't a weak lockup system that broke. It was the direct clutch. I slipped it so many times with a locked up 2-3 shift that all of the clutch material was removed from the frictions. Then the metal on metal condition actually welded the frictions to the steels. This gave me 3rd gear starts, a bind up in 2nd when the band applied and a 3rd gear that was NOT going to slip anymore



I continued to use the transmission with 260-280 hp and eventually stripped the splines out of the input hub.







-Chris

Originally posted by Strick-9

Cummins Corvette,



I know you were trying to help by using me as an example, but please don't. I welded a set of clutches together, but I didn't do it during a shift. A well known transmission 'expert' on the TDR (not Bill) told me to go out and do a stall test in reverse to see what happened. He was trying to diagnose something and was used to working with milled stators and their inherent lack of torque multiplication. I simply overpowered the clutch pack. That's what torque muliplication will do for you. Once my straight pipe got wound up with all the smoke and noise of a power brake, I couldn't tell if the transmission was slipping or not. Then when I placed the transmission back in 'drive' to go home, I found out the clutch pack was welded up.

-Chris

.

 

[rrausch]

Posted by JHansen: "So how is it that ATS all of a sudden figured out the precise orifice sizings and nobody else in the free world can?"



Because that is their Genius. They have IMO done the most figuring to produce the most reliable changes to produce the most reliable trans, whether or not you want to shift locked to locked, of just drag 8 tons up & down across the Rockie Mountains 6 days a week!



The 2 days I was at Wheat Ridge, Don & Clint were staying in the shop until midnight. And they were coming in to work at 6:45 a. m. I have been trying to tell you, these ATS guys are Smart, Dedicated, and Hard Working. One thing they don't do well, however, is write. And they don't spend a lot of time on the computer. That is why a few of us who have realized what Don & Clint & ATS & The TripleLok are all about have been trying to tell everybody else!!



And we have been made to feel like fools. And I for one, am tired of it! So if you still don't understand it, I dunno... call 'em I guess, or come and drive my truck, but quit *****ing & moaning. (Whew... . I feel better now!)



ALso, Chris, I only know Strick-9 from his posts, but from what I know of him they BOTH might be true!



Bill K. has been a huge help on this forum, helping guys understand our automatics, and I for one, applaud him. God Bless him.

 

[Joel Richards]

Originally posted by GLASMITHS

It is understandable if a persons just doesn't have time. No problem for me. But why then does he have time for long telephone calls and hours to spend with visitors. Get a life.

They just don't have the back-bone to stand up for their product when it is under the light. Repeating, silence implies either ignorance or stealth.

It seems to me that the ignorance is not on the part of ATS - it's on the part of those who do not take the initiative to get the straight story from the source. They even have a toll free number (800. 949. 6002) so they will pay for the call. If someone really want to know about their product, give them a call and ask. There have been numerous posts telling people to call and ask the tough questions. It seems that the anti-ATS crowd hasn't got the guts to make that call for fear that they might find out that there are alternatives out there. If people are not willing to make the call, how can they possibly make an informed decision, or more importantly, how can they give "advice" or sling mud when they PERSONALLY don't have a good understanding of all of the facts



All ATS is trying to do IMO is to build a better mousetrap, as are DTT and BD (among others). Competition gives us choice. Choice forces vendors to build better products. Better products are what we're all looking for.



Personally, I did very little homework, and I feel it almost cost me the satisfaction that I so greatly strive for. I almost wrote the check for the DTT after reading and listening to a few people here - I almost fell victim to the mud-slinging approach so prevalent these days towards ATS. Then I did more homework - very extensive homework. I read the TDR, and by taking the time to call, talk, and see with my own two eyes the differences (yes, I talked to DTT, BD and ATS - I even considered trying to fit an Allison, but that's another post) I have made my choice, and this Tuesday, I'll be the owner of an ATS. I'll be happy to let you all know how it goes - if you're interested.

Yet not once have I seen other vendors (except for DTT installers) ever give free advice.

BTW, in talking to all 3 vendors, none of them asked me for a credit-card before talking to me - I guess that means it was free advice - I just had to make the call and ask the tough questions...



This isn't meant to be a flame - just MY free advice...



Joel

 

[KatDiesel]

Originally posted by Cummins Corvette

Which one of these is the true story?

Both of them are most likely true... . strange things happens to him when he tries to attend TDR events



Chris has been through many parts. And alot of the things he posts can be a learning experience for other 12v'ers.

 

[KatDiesel]

Originally posted by Cummins Corvette

As for Bill, I think he can post now, but is so bitter about being kicked off and the verbal lashing he took in Vegas that I doubt we will here from him any time soon.

Did he tell you this? Don't try to explain other peoples actions or non actions, it leaves the door wide open for assumptions and misunderstandings.



When I was talking to him I didn't get that impression at all, I spent alot of time talking to his wife tho because he was busy working on Stefan's truck... installing [censored]. Also he had to swap a lift pump.





My take on all this transmission stuff... . theres room for everyone, people can buy what they like and when something breaks or doesn't work then "we" will hear about it I am sure and all learn from it. I'm still waiting for the first part to break in my transmission... . I know its coming with the way I drive... . hence I have cryo'ed shafts sitting here now ready to go in soon. Which one is best? I don't really care, I have what works best for me, just like Stakeman has something that makes him happy.



Other then that lets keep this thread civil please.

 

[GLASMITHS]

LSMITH AND JOEL RICHARDS

tHE IGNORANCE FALLS ALL AROUND. It would be on my part, ignorance of the working of the trannys; however, I can read and because of it I made my choice.



The real problem is these self styled experts posting what sounds like it comes out of a prepared text, then read the rest of the post and it is worse written than mine.



Did the guy who broke the shafts post, Heck no. This is the problem that the ats system is presented as bullet proff, and it is far from it.

 

[Strick-9]

Cummins Corvette,



I damaged my transmission with locked to locked shifts. I don't know exactly how much fiber was left on the frictions. I guess I could have disassembled the transmission and measured them for you. But I'm lazy and didn't. The clutches were NOT welded together during a shift as you stated.



The transmission was acting up and having some shifting problems. Due to the locked shifting of course. I went out and did a few tests to diagnose which clutch pack was damaged and the severe heat and slippage caused by the power brake welded the pack together.



So, the clutch pack was damaged from locked to locked shifting, but still driving me around. I don't know the extent of the damage because I didn't measure it. Anything, I say, would be a guess. They welded together during a power brake.



So if you want to call me a liar, you'll have to look a little harder.



-Chris

 

[LSMITH]

Joel, GREAT post!



Glasmiths, how many of the claims have you seen from ATS themselves that the transmission is bulletproof? You make a good point when you say "The real problem is these self styled experts posting". I agree. We have some guys explaining things that they don't know inside and out, and are asked a question. The ones that are responsible (IMO) are saying that people need to call, others rattle off what they think they heard and... ... well, we are getting conflicting information and outright fallacies. I would like to see everyone shown the courtesy that we would show another man face to face, disagree all day if we want, but keep the basics of courtesy and respect.



Kat says "My take on all this transmission stuff... . theres room for everyone, people can buy what they like and when something breaks or doesn't work then "we" will hear about it I am sure and all learn from it. I'm still waiting for the first part to break in my transmission... . I know its coming with the way I drive... . hence I have cryo'ed shafts sitting here now ready to go in soon. Which one is best? I don't really care, I have what works best for me, just like Stakeman has something that makes him happy.



AMEN!!!!!



Remember guys that we are only getting bits and pieces of lots of these stories. We heard about some broken shafts, now it changed to only one shaft was broken or maybe two. No information on the situation, HP, miles, treatment. Can we really get down on ATS for a broken shaft with the information we have in this instance? The high HP guys and the guys that are really hard on their trucks are going to break stuff, regardless of brand. Something somewhere is going to break. I can think of 3 people that welded clutch packs in a DTT transmission right off the top of my head. Does that mean the DTT is weak or has been misrepresented to the membership? ABSOLUTELY NOT!! These three guys posted the details of how it happened, and have all accepted responsibility for going outside of what the transmission is supposed to handle. Had they been running another brand they most certainly would have torn that transmission up too. If we can get some solid info on one brand or another breaking when it should not, or solid evidence of misrepresentation my a vendor we can get the rope out. Until then I would like to see courtesy and common sense prevail.

 

[HoleshotHolset]

What this thread has become......

" I can pee a greater distance than you... !! "

:-{}

" NO!, I can pee the farthest out of anyone... !! "



Matt

 

[LSMITH]

Cummins Corvette,



Dude, get a grip!! You are doing more damage than you can even imagine. I know you are trying to help, but it ain't working. You are making an ___ of yourself too in the process. Clint and Don are good guys and do not deserve the backlash of your rants. People are associating behavior like yours with ATS and that is not right. Strick-9 knows more about trannies than you or I are ever likely to. He did not lie about the clutches welding. He has been fair in his treatment of others and evaluation of what is said. Guys have been giving wrong information and when that is pointed out all of a sudden the guy pointing it out is a liar and a jerk? I think not. How many trannies have you rebuilt? Read posts carefully, and drop the attitude. Calling another man a liar is taken rather seriously by some of us.



Would it be possible to get back the original topic?