Triple lock vs. single??

[propuller]

Originally posted by smoop

Fox,

When locking the converter right after the 1/2 shift at WOT with 700 HP trying to move 6500# no matter what the quality of a single disc if the converter is "loose" enough to let the turbo(s) spool the single clutch will not hold. Reducing crank speed vs turbine speed differential is an acceptable method to improve clutch capacity & durability, but the sacrifice in drivability or performance is not worth the cost savings. It makes a huge difference in performance & life. If you are willing to accept sluggish roll outs and slowler turbo spooling for everyday driving & towing then a less expensive converter may be right for you.

Smoop

So what your saying is the DTT single disc converter have very efficient fluid coupling .



Kurt

 

[dlange]

I would say they are all good trans. I have hooked to the sled quite a few times, drag raced when I could, burnouts etc. . u name it,nd the trans has held,On the farm where the steady abuse, ( 20-30 loads of 19,000 plus lbs on a trailer in a feild,lots of stop and go driving is just a afternoons work after commuting 55 miles each way to work everyday. Now I'm not a 700 horse monster, but the truck has over 40,000 miles inless than a year of pure torture. In the fall it pulls 35,000 gross out of the feild. All I can say is I have done every thing but plow snow, (b/c we dont get enough) , and it has handled it. The others may to, but I would say you cant go wrind with a triple disc, and I personally feel it is a better design than the single. I run well over 500 horse at the track and street everyday. What more could you want? Except a shorter post!!

 

[justinp20012500]

Originally posted by justinp20012500

I don't quite understand your question... The sheet metal stator above is one i played with for awhile. (1250 RPM Stall) The truck could not pull itself out of a wet paper sack, but was great on the track where you could hold the break and spool it up. I don't understand why someone would want to make fluid coupling so close to lock up engagement. I guess that is one way to keep the clutch from slipping on engagement. The down side to that is it stalls way before you have any boost creating lots-o-smoke. The stock stator is way to high of a stall. It would start to move the vehicle after the peak torque of the motor occurred. The stator that i am currently using stalls about 1400-1450 RPM. It is the best combination that I have seen for a daily driver. I haven't checked my line pressure since I installed the resistor in the orange wire. Primary drive clutch has seen 25k of hard driving with little or no wear shown.



As for the lock up protion. That is a no brainer, the reason the TC's fail in lock up is because input torque exceeds clutch holding power. As you can see there are two drive clutches that are splinned to the hub with the intermediate plate engaging the cover. There is absolutly no delay in lock up. It locks as quick, if not quicker than a stock single disk converter. We are playing with some more ideas about adding another clutch to give it one more holding friction surface.

This was my expeirence with a very tight converter. I loved it on the track, but everyday driving is sucked way bad... That is why i made a multi disk with 4 friction surfaces.



[/IMG]#ad

 

[Jim Fulmer]

Smoop



Welcome to the TDR! I've got a question for you, actually two.



1. If I'm slipping my converter doing locked shifts would material show up in the pan.



2. What is surface area of the converter vise say the direct clutch, I thought the direct clutch was the weak point on our transmission's and that's why everyone went to a 5 clutch.





Jim

 

[Stefan Kondolay]

As far as the fastest E. T's you will soon see that they will also change to DTT. I didn't see Dennis having a 03 Ram run that fast.



As far a a tight DTT converter vs. a looser 3 disk set-up, there was a head to head comparison as the track in Muncie were the DTT converter ended up being over 2 tenths faster than the other TC, and the HP were within 1hp of each other. This was with the same size trucks as well. Although the guy with the Triple disc TC was complaining of slippage.



What I find funny is that FORD has being doing triple disk converter before any of the aftermarket companies in this industry, and everyone knows how the ford converter is junk, bring the same design over here and guys think it is the latest and greatest invention. And just to let everyone know there run a square tab design.

 

[justinp20012500]

Originally posted by Jim Fulmer

Smoop



Welcome to the TDR! I've got a question for you, actually two.



1. If I'm slipping my converter doing locked shifts would material show up in the pan.



2. What is surface area of the converter vise say the direct clutch, I thought the direct clutch was the weak point on our transmission's and that's why everyone went to a 5 clutch.





Jim

Would the filter catch the particles???

 

[justinp20012500]

I know there is a place where you can just dyno the converter. The name spaces my mind right now... Has anyone ever had a converter challenge to see which one is the best????



The converter dyno would have to be able to exceed 2000lbs Torque...

 

[MD500E]

Blue Thunder



I have a DTT setup that has taken 50k+ miles of abuse and torture from me without even a hint of a problem. My trans was setup for 350hp but I have been feeding it 500 most of its life and the converter has handled it fine. The thing I am most pleased with is the customer service from DTT.



Kevin

 

[torkin]

Justin,

Are you stateing that you have 4 EFFECTIVE friction surfaces in this converter. A friction area can only be counted effective if it is applied to a surface area that can rotate independently to each other. Using the word Quad or saying you have 4 frictions is very misleading. The current design parameters of the dodge cummins converter only allows for effective friction surfaces in odd #'s

1-3-5-7 etc



Jim.

Determining clutch condition by pan inspection can be misleading.

Would the material show uo in the pan? That would depend on the friction material, amount of slippage, and duration of slip. If slipped often and long enough eventually yes. Normally the friction shows up as "soot" like in appearance as the fric material turns to carbon as a result of heat & pressure.



Comparing the direct clutch to the TC clutch involves a lot more than clutch area. area of friction surface, composite of friction material, # of effective friction surfaces, mean radius of disc, apply pressure (psi) and apply area of apply piston.

BTW area of direct friction plate is 13. 21" sgx2x# of disc. mean radius direct=3. 312 TC disc mr= 6. 420 ( a lot longer lever)

We are using 7 frictions in some of our competition trans.

The weakest link is what ever fails. As torque/hp elevates we are all seeing needs for cause corrections.



Stephan,

The white 03 Ram that ran eliminations against Darren Morrison 97 belongs to D. Perry. Coulda, woulda, shoulda, will be, don't count. There seems to be a lot of time wasted by people trying to validate thier existence on this planet by putting down every one else. I hold a lot of respect for many of my competitors as mechanics/design people. I don't believe anyone has the market cornered on innovative products. Sorry for such a long post-I gotta go to work.

smoop

 

[Stefan Kondolay]

I was in Muncie and I didn't see a white 03 3rd gen run that fast maybe I missed it, but I don't think so.

 

[torkin]

Stephan,

My mistake, it's an 02

smoop

 

[justinp20012500]

Originally posted by smoop

Justin,

Are you stateing that you have 4 EFFECTIVE friction surfaces in this converter. A friction area can only be counted effective if it is applied to a surface area that can rotate independently to each other. Using the word Quad or saying you have 4 frictions is very misleading. The current design parameters of the dodge cummins converter only allows for effective friction surfaces in odd #'s

1-3-5-7

There is one bonded side to the clutch that splines to the piston, two bonded sides on the intermediate plate, and one bonded side to the other friction plate that splines to the piston. There are four friction surfaces on three plates. (one plate has both sides bonded)... . With both the plates splined to the piston, and the intermediate plate locked in the cover, there are four effective friction surfaces...

 

[torkin]

Justin, if the plate splined to the piston is bonded on the piston side it is locked to the piston and DON'T COUNT. If your bonded side faces away from the piston and your intermediate plate is bonded on both sides then you would be applying a friction to friction ( this can't work) so you still have 3 effective frictions.

(1) internal spline friction to cover (2) intermediate friction to rear side of frt int spline plate(3) intermediate rear side friction to frt of rear int splined plate. Since this rear internal splined plate rotates WITH the piston it does not matter if its bonded on the rear side since it is locked mechanically (splines) to the piston

smoop

 

[GMaines]

When I went looking for a transmission, I called a couple of them, I picked ATS because of the way they treated me. I just did not like the way the other company handled me. I could not be happier, I have just what I wanted, with outstanding service. The people who put it in for me were Bellflower Transmissions and what a bunch of pro's... I am one happy camper

 

[jimk]

convertors and transmissions

This is always interesting reading, however not all people bought a dodge to race or have any intention doing so.

For me customer service, warranty and satifaction.

For me warranty is on the top, how long of a warranty, dealer and manufacture are they always the same?

But what is the minimum rpm, that you can go to lockup and not have problems for each design. If rpms= pump pressure and 1750 is the number where the oil pump reaches maximum pressure. I may be off on the numbers some , I can live with that. Being that there are two different oil pump capacitys now that I know of. Can you go to lockup an hold a load at 1550 rpm with each design and would you be willing to warranty it? For how long? I am not talking about dyno or drag racing, I am talking about pulling a trailer full of steel or a backhoe or a 4020 JD tractor.

Will each design hold at what rpm or pump pressure at lockup.

Try driving 15 or 20 miles in fluid coupling in second gear with a huge load of steel on a trailer. Jimk

 

[torkin]

jimk

variables are rear axle ratio, tire size, what gear (2 or 3 or 4?)

smoop

 

[torkin]

jimk

variables are rear axle ratio, tire size, what gear (2 or 3 or 4?)

The pump is capable of producing max pressure at any thing above 1200 RPM. Actual pressure would be a result of throttle position (TV) which would vary with gear and road speed. All things being equal the Sun Coast triple disc will hold @ 1550 RPM.

With SC valve body L/U could be commanded in 2nd and pres should be approx 120 psi in L/U

smoop

 

[jimk]

information

Originally posted by smoop

jimk

variables are rear axle ratio, tire size, what gear (2 or 3 or 4?)

The pump is capable of producing max pressure at any thing above 1200 RPM. Actual pressure would be a result of throttle position (TV) which would vary with gear and road speed. All things being equal the Sun Coast triple disc will hold @ 1550 RPM.

With SC valve body L/U could be commanded in 2nd and pres should be approx 120 psi in L/U

smoop

I don't have the use of 2 gear lockup, but I wish I had a few days ago. I am supprised the transmission is not burnt to to ground. I must have misunderstood what I have been told as I was under the impression that 1750 was the number to have the maximum pressure. I use stock tires and 3. 54 gears in a 95 and don't intend on going to 4. 10 EVER...

The problem is going to overdrive and lockup at below 65 or so towing I have reduced the rpms below 1750. I use third gear and lockup now to tow but I don't intend on spending a lot of money to do to same thing. I don't care if a FORD or anything else passes me on the highway I just wont to not have any problems when towing and use 4 gear and lockup at 1500 so an have a warranty for more than 6 months I have a 102 k on a stock transmission now, but I will continue to use the 1750 minimum until I get rid of the truck or a better idea. I am open to suggestion . I would like to see enough pressure to hold, like 90 at idle and 170 or so at lockup. That may not be necessary, not sure. If a multi disc convertor is the way to go and it will only last for 100k that is ok by me ... jimk

 

[fox]

Obviously, there are several members in this discussion who are more experienced than I am.

and I won't try to claim that my trans/truck/converter are the fastest to spool , but if it is a little slow/tight, it is a great trade-off for the drivability that it has!!!!



I did not buy it for street racing/drag racing. It pulls my trailer like it isn't there and is fun to drive with out a trailer. No sloppy-loose starts. It has nice shifts that are firm.



I disagree with the statement that if it was looser in fluid coupling the clutch won't hold. Maybe with other designs but not with a DTT.

With or without a trailer, I can drive it all day with out reving it past 2000 rpm. of course after 75 mph It goes past that.

 

[jimk]

convertor

I am in no way a converter expert and not intend on becoming one. For me a good converter would have good, FLUID COUPLING but be not so tight as to have problems making boost on a stock engine and go to lockup and hold at 1500 or so if I need that. I don't have problems with egts, so why do I wont to run my engine a 2500 or 2600 down the HW?

A stator that is cnc machined of billet aluminum that does a good job of doing that and a multi disc converter MIGHT be the way to go. I don't care if the disc only last for 100k miles if it will do the job I ask. . jimk