Archived Truck only runs for 10-30 seconds.

[Nschroeder]

I have a 99 2500, everything aftermarket has been removed from the truck except the air dog lift pump. Fuel pressure is a constant 13psi when running.

When I start the truck it starts as usual and runs good until it suddenly shuts off just like turning off the key. The truck will not restart unless the batteries are unhooked for a second then it will do the same thing again. If I don't unhook the batteries the lift pump never comes on and the truck never even tries to fire.

This is not entirely a new problem to this truck it has been doing it randomly for about 4 months when the adrenaline would try to ramp the truck up to high idle, however this was the first time it had shut off while driving down the road. I pulled over and removed the adrenaline thinking that was the problem, but there was no change.

I was able to limp about half way home with the truck running less and less at a time until I was unable to drive any more.

I checked the codes and got 3

Po237 I think this may have been caused by the key being on when i unhooked the map sensor wire to remove the adrenaline

p1689 I read that this can be caused by cranking the truck with the fuel system relay pulled which i did loading it on the trailer.

po253 this one says Injection pump fuel metering control a low, cam, rotor, injector I am not sure what this one might mean. I cleared all codes and none of them came back when i restarted the truck two more times.

Thanks for reading my long winded post and hopefully some one out there in tdr land has an idea of where to go from here.

 

[RCatalo]

Truck runs then shuts down

Take a look at Blue Chip Performance they offer a really nice troublshooting guide for VP44 trucks, i think you will find your answer there.

Rich

 

[Nschroeder]

Thanks

I checked Blue chips website and it was helpful in eliminating the wire harness as a possibility but im still not sure how to tell if it is the ecm or vp that is the problem

Nick

 

[JLandry]

Nick,



Search the forum here for instructions on how to hot wire your VP44. It's been discussed many times in the past. Basically you disconnect the wiring harness from the VP44, supply it with power, then start the truck. When provided power, the VP44 will idle the engine until you take that power away. If the engines starts and continues to idle without the ECM hooked up, then you can assume the ECM is causing the problem. If it behaves the same way, then the VP44 must be bad.



Good luck and keep us posted on what you find.



John L.

 

[Nschroeder]

I found the procedure and I will try that after work tomorrow and post back with my findings.

Thanks

Nick

 

[Nschroeder]

Hot wired vp and truck starter very rough but did start then smoothed out and seemed to idle good.

Chip Fisher suggested i tap in a hot wire direct from the battery to the pump harness and with that the truck seems to drive good. It seems to me that there is something in the ecm cutting power to the vp for some reason unless there is something else I am missing?

 

[Sticks]

Disconnect the ECM connections, clean, re-connect, then try again. Hopefully a bad connection.

You can try running the harness looking for a rub through area, but I do not know of any prone areas for this to happen.

Odds are that if cleaning the connections and inspection of the connectors (bent pins, enlarged sockets or pushed out... ) that it is the ECM.

You should try to get the diagnostic troubleshooting tree for the P0253 (Fuel Injection Pump Fuel Valve Open Circuit ) DTC that got set and follow it just to make sure.

 

[JLandry]

... tap in a hot wire direct from the battery to the pump harness and with that the truck seems to drive good.

Nick,



Can you elaborate more on exactly which wire you supplied battery power to?



Are you talking about the lift pump or the VP44 fuel injection pump?



Regards,



John L.

 

[Nschroeder]

I ran a hot wire straight to the injection pump, kind of like the hot wire explained here but tapped into the harness. This way you can still have throttle control and the truck drives almost like normal except you have to get out and pull the wire to shut it down.

I also cleaned every connection i could get my hands on and looked the harness over real good. I went ahead and ordered an ecm from Bob Wagner so hopefully that will fix the problem.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions

Nick

 

[Sticks]

Did you swap out the relay in the PDC? Check the fuses?

IIRC there was someone here a while back that had a problem with corrosion on the relay sockets in the PDC. Had to look real hard with a light. Not evident by looking at the relay terminals.

 

[Nschroeder]

Just went and checked inside the pdc, there was nothing I could see but I sprayed it down with cleaner anyway and put in a different relay again. Truck keeps running less and less at a time every time I start it. Id say its down to about 3 seconds now.

Nick

 

[JLandry]

Just went and checked inside the pdc, there was nothing I could see but I sprayed it down with cleaner anyway and put in a different relay again. Truck keeps running less and less at a time every time I start it. Id say its down to about 3 seconds now.

Nick

Nick,



Just for fun, try swapping out the ASD relay in the PDC with another know good one (maybe the wiper or horn relay) to see if that has any effect on the engine shutting off.



Also, can you verify again that no DTC’s are being set when the engine shuts itself off... even if the Check Engine light isn't being lit? If you do find DTC's, can you clear them, restart the engine, and then see which ones (if any) return?



Thanks,



John L.

 

[Sticks]

JLandry - I can't remember. Do the 2nd gen Dodges have any safety shutdown features? Low oil, overheat, etc?

If he can hotwire the pump at what ever plug/port he is bypassing, it's be nice to know where or what that circuit is being controlled.

Need him to run the trouble tree.

 

[Nschroeder]

Does anyone know where I can find the trouble tree?

Thanks

Nick

 

[JLandry]

JLandry - I can't remember. Do the 2nd gen Dodges have any safety shutdown features? Low oil, overheat, etc?

I honestly don't know Sticks!



Our Cummins powered trucks have an ASD (Auto Shut Down) relay connected to the PCM and I've never been able to figure out exactly what it's purpose is. According to the factory service manual, in gasoline powered models the ASD relay will kill power to the fuel injectors and coils, and in some cases power to the O2 sensor heating elements, when the ignition key is left in the ON position longer than 1. 8 seconds without the engine running, or when the crank position signal gets too far out of range. It's purpose in a Cummins powered model isn't documented in the factory service manual, but logic suggests is serves a similar function. I *think* it causes the PCM to tell the Cummins ECM to kill power to the VP44 and lift pump, but I don't know under what circumstances it'll do that.



I know that some particularly difficult crank-but-no-start/run problems discussed here on the TDR have been traced to a faulty ASD relay... but it's rare. It's easy to temporarily swap out the ASD relay with a known good one to find out.



John L.

 

[Sticks]

Might be as simple as wired to the ignition. I'll look over my manual once the coffee kicks in.

For an 02 - the ASD reads like a loop. ASD Coil wire out of the PCM - C3 (DB/YL in RD/LB out), through joint connector #2 in PDC, one leg up to Fuse 6 (BATT AO), and the other leg back down through the circuit side of the ASD relay (RD/LB in DG/OR out) then back into the PCM C3.

Sounds like pull the PCM (not ECM on the engine) connectors on the passenger side firewall clean, inspect, reconnect, and trace across the top of the firewall to the PDC looking for rub throughs. Then Ohm out the relay ports in the PDC and PCM (Pins 3 and 12 on PCM C3).

Check Fuse 6 and verify power is making it to the ASD relay port.

Then Ohm out Port 5 on the VP44 plug to pin 33 (LB/RD) on ECM plug.

I can not find the connection between the ECM and PCM ASD circuit - READ I do not know what circuit leaves the PCM to the ECM in regards to the ASD.

 

[Sticks]

This is going to be sad if it all boils down to a bad ground.

 

[Nschroeder]

Does the asd relay cut the power to the vp44 or does it supply power to the little blue wire with red tracer located on pin #5 to shut down? According to chip at blue chip that is a shut down wire that goes to the vp that nobody is 100% sure what it is for. It gets battery voltage to shut down the engine but always has some voltage no matter what. That could possibly explain why you cant find where it goes to the ecm does it go straight to the vp?

I have re cleaned every ground on the whole truck twice now and every electrical connection that I can find. I can promise you that all connections are very good except for my poor battery cable terminals that are not in good shape from all this action.

Thanks

Nick

 

[JLandry]

Does the asd relay cut the power to the vp44

No... not directly anyway.



The ASD relay is wired only to the PCM. It has no direction connection to either the ECM or VP44.

... does it supply power to the little blue wire with red tracer located on pin #5 to shut down?

No.



That wire only runs directly between the ECM and the VP44.



The ECM is the only thing that directly controls and communicates with the VP44. The ECM toggles VP44 power on and off through the Fuel Pump Relay located in the PDC.



Back to the ASD relay function...



When the logic circuits inside the PCM detect something is wrong with the engine (and we don't know exactly what in a diesel powered truck), it turns off the ASD relay. Presumably this action causes the PCM to send a message over to the ECM through the CCD datalink network (an onboard communications network) which in turn causes the ECM to either shut off power to the VP44 (and possibly the lift pump also), or instead it could send some sort of shut-down signal to the VP44 on the "Fuel Shut-Off Signal" wire you were asking about.



While the ASD relay is somewhat mysterious on our Cummins powered trucks, I can assure you your truck WILL NOT start without it functioning properly (unless of course you hot wire the VP44). Clearly the ASD circuit plays some indirect roll in what the ECM decides to do with the VP44. However, I've read reports that if you pull the ASD relay out with the engine running on a Cummins powered truck, the engine will continue to run! This seems to defy the common understanding of how the system works. But since I've never tried this, I can't say for sure it really behaves this way.



Did you try swapping out the ASD relay for another to see if there was any change?



Have you erased all DTC's, restarted the engine, then checked again for DTC's after the engine died?



Thanks,



John L.

 

[Nschroeder]

I have swapped the relay and that made no change. I cleaned the contacts of all relays. The truck does not set any codes as long as I dont hot wire the pump

Nick