Truck will not start - dealer wants to replace fuel system!

[sag2]

Here is the pressure limiting valve, and the rail pressure sensor is behind the 3 in Miller 9013.

 

[sag2]

Better photo of the rail pressure sensor.

 

[SandyHelton]

Thanks for the pics, that helps alot. Any parts house references would be helpful. I was searching the internet today and didn't find many that were not performance related.

 

[SandyHelton]

A new person from the dealer called me and we talked about the issues. I was only able to contact Dodge customer service on Monday and now the "dispatcher" at the dealer is telling me that an engineer from Dodge had not only come out to look at the truck, but personally ran the diagnostics and has determined that I have bad fuel (smelled like paint thinner to them) and that ALL components of the fuel system had to be replaced including the injectors, connector tubes, fuel lines, common rail, CP3, lift pump and the system would need to be flushed. How can any form of contamination ruin a complete system? It's not an acid or caustic! I could see rubber type components being degraded by some forms of hydro carbons, but it shouldn't harm steel or aluminum. I can see water causing rust issues. I can see algae clogging the fuel filter. I guess customers must either be gullible or stupid for them to get away with feeding us this type of response. One thing that makes me think that someone did look deeper into the issue is that the "dispatcher" told me that the engineer had checked out the cam and crank sensor and that they were OK and that the injectors were the most likely failure point. I pressed him on this assertion, because he didn't mention any tests for the rail pressure sensor or pressure limiting valve and he said that at 900rpm the rail pressure was 1000PSI. Much too low to start from what I've gathered on this site. Can the FCA cause low pressure at the common rail while still providing sufficient output flow from the CP3? I do not believe any attempt has been made to cap the fuel ports of the common rail and measure cranking pressure. I've asked for a copy of his report and they said that only Dodge could provide that. The saga continues...

 

[SandyHelton]

So do you think that I've run the full gambit with the dealer/Dodge and am unlikely to get them to fix the truck under warranty? A friend on mine, who suggested that I join TDR, has an 2nd gen truck and has told me that Dodge has to prove that the contamination has actually caused the malfunction in order to void the warranty. Have others heard of this law? Do I have to go to court to get Dodge to deal fairly or do I just assume that its the contaminated fuel and bite the bullet?

 

[sag2]

I know both of the field technical guys in CA from school and both of them are very good with diesel diagnosis, so I doubt anything was missed if they came out to double check the diagnosis. Rail pressure is probably one of the first things that were looked at. If the rail pressure was close to the set pressure there is no need to cap off injectors.

You said you were running Bio at about 20%. Did you buy B20, or were you mixing B100 to get about 20%? In either case, you ignored the warning in your owner’s manual. That in itself would be hard to defend if you want to take them to court. At the training center in diesel class they used to have about 25 bottles of different fuels from all over the state, different brands, Ag, Bio, etc. and I don't recall any that smelled like "paint thinner". So are you sure about the quality of your source? That is one of the hazards of Bio fuels, there is no standard anyone has to adhere to. There are different ways to make it, and some ways are better than others. And some of the chemicals can be very corrosive.

I'm guessing that the injectors are stuck shut, and the reason the entire system is required to be replaced is Dodge is on the hook for a $12,000 engine. Whatever ruined the injectors is/will ruin the FCA, Pump, Cascade Overflow Valve, Pressure Relief valve, Pressure Sensor, etc. in time. When and to what extent is really unknown. And when those parts fail and it causes an injector to stick open and the piston melts, they are not going to be too happy. So if they have to stand behind it, they want a fully functional fuel system that has not been compromised. I can completely understand that position.

I see you have three choices, tow it out, pull the injectors and try to clean them up (assuming they aren't scored) and take your chance that is all that will ever go wrong. Or contact your insurance company, have them verify the fuel is not really #2 diesel and ask them to replace the fuel system, or step up and pay for the repair and move on with a warranty remaining.

 

[SandyHelton]

Well, I picked up the truck yesterday and aside from the basic story line of the entire fuel injection system needing to be replaced, the dealer went out of their way to be helpful and supportive. I can see sag2's point above, but I also have a hard time believing that even if I let them do all of the repairs that they would honor the warranty down the road for the engine. The perspective of the dealer is that they believe that at one of my last fillup's I ended up with paint thinner or something similar in the fuel. They made no reference to its biodiesel content and I've never experienced or heard of anyone else thinking that biodiesel smells of paint thinner.

I'll up date the post as I find out more...

 

[Wingate]

I agree with Sag2, he makes valid points that I also deal with on a daily basis. The only difference is that at the Dodge house, you might be talking about $15K, and where I work... it can get up in excess of $350K... . While I'm not sure on the specifics of Dodge/Cummins warranty procedures... . where I work, I am obligated to the dealership I work for, the manufacturer that my dealership represents and the customer that owns the product. If the customer does something to harm an engine that is still under standard new engine warranty, then they have no warranty on that portion of the engine unless it is repaired to the dealership level of satisfaction.

Take a sample of the fuel and send it off to be analyzed. That might give you some idea of where it got contaminated. I wouldn't spend alot of time on guessing whether or not the fuel is bad. Test It. If it test bad, get your checkbook, if not... . contact the service manager with the test results and ask that they investigate it a little futher.

 

[Rollin' Heavy]

subscribing. I would like to know the outcome of the find.

 

[sheffield442]

Bad fuel

All, here is what happened to me lessons learned. Fill up like usual at Murphys at Walmart, several mile down the road started making noise like a old 12 valvle. Few mile later died. Towed to a shop pulled coudy fuel out flushed tank and still no start, white smoke. Took to dealer. They said it looked like fuel system. Then said the turbo also possible and possible a whole engine since insurance was involved and covering until the whole engine thing. The insurance went on hold when they said I probably had modified the engine, which i did not. Just intake and exhaust and gauges. After while I told them to **** off Towed it home broke out the books and starting working it myself.

Injector tips, NO.

Injector Pump, No.

finally took injectors to a shop to get tested, they said the whole injector neeeds to be replaced. Sent the DPP back to them for a refund within 30 days, great guys. Bought stock ones fromt he diesel shop and it worked. After a lot of meticulous man hours of cleaning the raw fuel from the exhaust and intercooler and all. Ran like a champ. Put on a FASS also.

Now I know to call the Dept. of agriculture ASAP when it is possible fuel and always keep your receipt until next fuel up. We did get insurance and the fuel company to cover after I had so much stress had to go to the doctor about my heart. Came out about 2 grand up.

 

[Wygate]

This just happened to us the end of October. See 6. 7 Engine & transmission forum - Bad Fuel, dealer says entire system needs to be replaced dated 10/26/09 by Wygate. Dodge will not help you out, their warranty clearly states they do not cover damage from fuel contamination. Call your car insurance company - they may cover you under comprehensive. DOCUMENT all calls, conversations you have with dealership, dodge, etc. We have USAA and they covered the $14,000 bill, and my husband and I assume they went after Pilot for reimbursement. I will send you my husband's cell phone number if you need additional info - or just need to talk w/ someone who just went thru this.



Best of luck - it took us 26 days to get our truck back!!



Melissa

 

[sag2]

subscribing. I would like to know the outcome of the find.

I'm guessing from the lack of update that the dealer was correct all along, and after he towed it out it wasn't as easy as capping off an injector to get it going. I'm also interested to see the final outcome.

 

[MLee]

You remember when we had the "ASK THE EXPERT" 8th of Dec? This is the problem I was asking about. They responded with, there is a new Filter with-in-a filter to trap the water in a separator, and should eliminate this problem. I can now understand why you guys are going with the after market duel filter systems.

Sounds like a good sediment bowl should be installed before the transfer pump, a good idea to stop the water and sediment.

 

[Wygate]

Sandy,

Something else I found is Chrysler folks has an internal report called a "START REPORT". That is them getting info to the folks higher up the food chain. My dealer never told me that they pumped 5 gal of fuel in my case, no matter how many times I asked. I had the star report that stated what happened when I asked, dealer never came clean with what really happened!

Also I installed a FASS 95 w/ dual filters and kept the stock stuff in place, should not be able to happen again (knock on wood!) Sucks having to spend over $600 on a truck with only 2 payments and not getting any more than a piece of mind, but in this case its seems worth it.

 

[BillDriscoll]

I have smelled bad diesel/bio diesel mixture that smells like paint thinner. We have 2 oil pollution trucks where I work (NAS Pensacola) that used Bio diesel. (b20), but also had very low hours. The Fire Trucks had the same issues.

The motor pool finally had to replace one fuel tank. Finally after a few years they got rid of all the bio on the base. I wish I would have got pictures.

Willie Nelson can KMA, no more bio for me until there is some sort of standards and testing. Mixing bio and this low sulfer is also an unknown, add in the water problem of bio and you probably are going to have issues.

Funny, I read today that the dollar per gallon, govt substisy, for the bio producers expired Jan 1.



Rock on



BillD

 

[SandyHelton]

Thanks for all of the input and suggestions. between work and the holidays, I have not had time until today to start to look at the truck. I now have the tools including a Auto
Enginuity scan tool to debug the problems. I've read through the current TDR and a few past issues with respect to injector replacement and fuel filtering and can see why I may have gotten crap past the stock filter arrangement. I am likely going to add the FASS filter setup on my truck before I am done.

The interesting issue I still do not understand is that I've never seen a water sensor light come on and I've never gotten water in the fuel canister that was detectable with the naked eye. I've just assumed that this was due to living in California and that condensation in the tank was minimal.

I'll post updates as I find more answers.

 

[TCDiesel]

If you run 20% home brewed Bio-You will experience the same problem again, unless the Bio-Diesel gets certified by a commercial Refiner I would not recommend it. The system's that are mentioned in this thread are NOT equip to handle the issues that now exist. Correct filtration will require a new understanding of filtration, direct feed will be replace with Bypass systems that are stand alone filtration with NO connection to engine operations,its only job will be filtration.

 

[SandyHelton]

Well, I final got a chance to take a look at my truck yesterday afternoon. I hooked up the analyzer and started by looking at a few of the fuel related sensors. Fuel pressure looks OK starting around 1000 PSI well cranking but building up to well over the set point (~6K). I went to take a fuel sample and noticed a lot o diesel had spilled onto my driveway. The first thing I noticed was that the fuel filter top had been over torqued and the o-ring was protruding out of the housing considerably. How sloppy can you get? It was in plain sight, but after fixing that it didn't stop the fuel flow. I got under the truck and had my son cycle the lift pump on and saw fuel gushing from the back of the lift pump area. My only guess as to what happened is that they had started to disassemble prematurely and then rushed to put back the parts - except they didn't bother to put it back together correctly. Supposedly, the Dodge tech was the last one who worked on the truck, did he leave it loosely assembled? All I know is that I now have several fuel leaks to fix prior to getting to the real problem.

sag2 - is this the quality of work that I should expect from the Dodge tech you so ardently defended or just sloppy work from the dealer? I've got to wonder if the Dodge tech did anymore than look at the fuel sample and confirmed the initial dealer diagnosis.

 

[JBallou]

Sounds like the tech took things apart in preperation for parts, and warrenty going thru. The shop manager let or told the tech to procede, then when you wanted the truck back it got thrown back together. *hit happens, and it sounds like you stepped in it, thru no direct fault of your own.



Easy for me to say but keep at it, and get it fixed. Chalk the dealer up to a lesson, and move on.

 

[Wingate]

I think after reading all of this thread and several previous threads related to fuel contamination... I'm going to install a FASS system on my truck this spring.

Although I never buy bio, and I always buy fuel from the same places I get fuel for my servica truck... I DON'T want the headache of dealing with the idiots down at the local dealership. (This would be the SAME dealership that left my wife's wheel loose during a tire rotation, her filter box loose, my steering fell off after they worked on it) . . ahaha. I REALLY don't want them pulling the valve cover!!!