Trucks breaking my pocketbook! opinions?

[msperos]

in the fist post

now we are way out of warantee, 150,000 miles on the truck

 

[Matt400]

Should I pull my truck from this guy? He's going to ask for $4 g in ecm and diagnosis.

You don't owe him if he didn't either "fix" the truck -or- "diagnose" find out what it needs.

I did sign an estimate sheet, not sure what it said. whre do I stand guys?

Doesn't NV have some laws on this kind of thing?, In CA you would have been supplied with a copy of what you signed.

Most likely you are liable for what you signed.

 

[GShail]

Salt lka ecity really isn't all that far from Northern Arizona or Las Vegas. Why not let the guys at Industrial Injection take a look at it. I could help you get it to Salt Lake City via Auto Transporter. I would gladly waive any fee's normally associated with Brokering to help you out. Let me know if that is something you wish to consider.

 

[machinemover]

follow up!!!!Truck SHOULD BE FIXED, FOUND PROBLEM

First off I want to say, I do believe I brought this truck to the right place. The repairs were very expensive, but in this issue what was found were partcally dealer caused problems, parcially a problem I believe was there from the begining and failed injectors. I am currently on the road with a rental truck so I have not picked the truck up yet, but from speaking to the shop I am convinced they finally found the cause. Turns out bad injector tubes, and bad seats. I also had two injectors swaped by the dealer awhile back and I believe they were not torque correctly. What is unfortunate with this type of problem is the diagnosis is so labor indusive it really hits the wallet hard. I was double wammyed by a po606 code comming up which is a bad ecm and the diagnosis can not continue until the code is corrected. costing me an additional $2000 just to take that away. I belive J & S Diesel has done above and beyond what alot of Diesel shops and we won't even mention dealers could have ever done. James took this in as a personal "vendeta" after he found this was going to be a difficult problem. He was deturmined not to allow this problem to beat him. I have to hand it to J & S as I feel they really went waste deep with this and made every effort they could until this problem was licked. My reapir is very expensive, no getting around that. But this time maybe the repair is only once and fixed right this time and I will not have to deal with down time and rental trucks any longer. Again, a big thank you to James and the guys at J and S Diesel in Las Vegas for succeeding where other shops failed... ... Eric

 

[Blacksdieselhp]

Man, no wander I'm always broke. If I could get $95 per hour just to look for problems and not fix anything, I'd be rich. No really, most of the time I don't charge my customers anything for diagnostics. If I can't find and fix the problem, i don't think i deserve to make money on the job. I did have a truck that came in with about the same symptoms as yours. I was stumped on it. I checked everything that I could think of. I kept thinking it was the ECM or the injector pump, but after 3 weeks of digging, i finally figured I would just buy a set of injectors and try them and if it didn't fix it, i would just have an extra set of very very expensive injectors laying around. But it did fix the truck. Come to find out, the truck had been at a dealer for 4 months and the bill was over $5,000. New injector pump, ECM, wiring harneses, new rail, everything but injectors. He had taken them to court and got that resolved and when i got it, I didn't know any of those parts had been tried and it had all of the original parts back on it. Would have been nice to know before I started on it. But yea, I don't think its right to throw parts at a problem and just charge the customer as you go. I'm a poor boy too, so I try to help out as much as possible.

 

[PBrauer]

Not to be too hard on that shop but with a fuel delivery code they should have done a flow test (manually) as soon as they verified pressure to the CP3 was OK. A full manual flow (leak rate) test, down to the individual injectors, can be done in a few hours (max). $3-400 at a full blown injection service shop. A good shop might have simply re-torqued the pass thru tubes right off the bat, then discussed with you whether you wanted to pull and replace any... That could have been an hour or two labor initially, about another two hours to pull and replace all six tubes plus about $25 parts per new tube. I'm talkin max labor rates here too.



If that's a reputable shop then they should be kicking themselves for dropping the ball. In my opinion they should consider it a good "lesson learned" on the common rail and get you out for no more than around $400 with re-torqued tubes... another hundred or so, plus parts, if they replaced some tubes... You definately shouldn't pay for that ECM.

 

[machinemover]

I don't disagree with you, but I am staying positive about this repair. It is cheaper for me to repair this truck then take an awful lick on a trade in for a new truck. I'm happy it's fixed. SHould he be charging $95 per hour for this? well probably not, but he did say he actually spent twice the amount of time on this truck. He di put a new injection pump on twice just to try. He didn't try to sell me the injection pump, a dealer would have. He dropped the fuel tank, check everything there. He did do flow tests and such, evrythign would come out within margin, however it was intermittant. Very strange problem and apparantly hard to diagnose. It is hard to find a good shop in my area and you can go all over the country and play russian roulette or hope the shop is going to treat you right with the one you have. I will most likely elect to try and use J&S again, They seem well equpt and in my opinion much better then a dealer. Had I elected a dealer, I can gurantee I would have owned many more parts by now and possibley still not be fixed. I do believe part of my problem was dealer caused in the first place.

 

[PBrauer]

machinemover, I know you appreciate the shops work and I wouldn't even be surprised if it's a great shop. The problem I have is that they really messed up troubleshooting your truck. You had a reasonable expectation that they would be capable, qualified, and equipped to work on your truck when they offered to perform the work.



As soon as you said 10mph with a fuel delivery code they should have started looking for a high pressure leak... period. I know that and I'm a DIY'er, not a mechanic. The first thing to check is the leak rate out of the head, then the leak rate past/thru the pump and relief valve. Truthfully, they should have seen that the leakrate at the head was too high, stopped, isolated one injector at a time, then stop to tell you some of the possibilities. Although a cracked, leaking, or stuck injector were all possible, the most likely problem was an improperly seated tube... especially when you mentioned that two had been serviced recently. You had a full time problem that was being masked/compensated by the CP3/FCA some of the time. Since you eventually lost virtually all power and set the code I am 99% sure that the leak/return rate from the head would have failed regardless of how good or bad it drove on the way to the shop.



You never needed a new ECM...

You never needed a new CP3...

Replacing these w/o checking the rail is/was a SERIOUS mistake, no matter how "honest".



Spending more than a few minutes on fuel pressure was a waste of time...

A few minutes w/shop gauge and a tapped banjo at the suction line... done.

Could also open the water drain to verify sufficient pressure/flow under load...

The CP3 and FCA are still suspect but not UNTIL you rule out the entire rail... especially without a scanner.

Unless there's a restriction somewhere, the CP3 can pull it's own fuel anyway.

CP3 and FCA COULD be ruled out quickly with a RP gauge and the right fittings...

Something any diesel shop should have anyway.

They should now be an hour or so into the job and will have the rail tests done in about two or three more hours max.



Flow and contibution tests with a scanner are almost useless anyway. A scanner will never isolate a HP leak... only capable of telling you that one exists. They should have isolated each return with fittings, measured flow, then isolated each injector to see which one(s) were leaking the worst... It's fundamental troubleshooting on the Common Rail.



It's too bad that a lot of independant shops still don't have the $100 or so in fittings to do this or the knowledge that this is the place to start. This stuff is right in the factory service manual. Too many people are ending up with new relief valves, rail pressure sensors, FCA's, CP3's, injectors, and in your case a new ECM when the problem is a $25 pass thru tube which may or may not even need to be replaced. Installing them is simple if done properly and carefully but devestating when they are under/over-torqued or improperly mated.



I know I'm going long again but there is a limit to what you should feel responsible for. They had a weak spot in their knowledge and capabability. They learned something valuable which they will hopefully put to good use in the future. It's part of doing business. While it's generous of you to feel willing to pay a little extra I would not pay more than about $500 if all they did was repair one or two leaking tubes plus the cost of any tubes/injectors that were replaced.



I apologize if I'm sounding like a jerk. This kind of thing just really gets to me. That shop needs to do the right thing...

 

[BHolm]

I agree, they should not be going to school on your dime. Think REALLY hard... does $12,500 sound right for ANY repair on anything short of a Ferrari? seriously, for that kind of money, they could have pulled the entire engine and replaced it with a new one. Would have been quicker too!

 

[GDMRTN]

My dad has a shop. He had a vehicle that he spent the last three month (off and on) trying to figure it out. Many many hours were spent trying, testing, replacing etc etc. It all boiled down to a bad oxygen sensor heater. (gas vehicle) Replace sensor... problem fixed. The customer got billed for about 1/4 or less of the actual time we spent on it. Speaking from a shop standpoint, we just have to "eat" the labor and chalk it up to experience. I think this shop could do a little better on their price. At least it's fixed, that's the important part.

 

[AABEN]

Turn him in to the better business office close to him. See A lawer.

 

[machinemover]

This reapir has turned into a total nightmare. I have been nothing but 100% cordial to this guy. I am guessing he just really has a problem with anyone that questions his charges? He will now NOT accept any payment but cash. I even got him a BAnk of America cashiers check and he will not accept it! He wants cash only and when I called Consumer affairs, they tried calling him and he totally lied to them and said I threatened him, which I did not do, and "he is within his right to require cash only and will not allow he on his property without a police officer" all I want at this point is my truck back . One step at a time.

 

[rbattelle]

This reapir has turned into a total nightmare.

I feel for you, dude.



Of the few mechanics I've used in the past all but 1 I'd characterize as "very shady". They act really nice and helpful to your face, and you feel like they're good people. But eventually they reveal themselves for what they really are.



You've got to cut your losses and get that truck out of there right away, to avoid any possibility of retaliation being taken on it. Get the $12500 in cash and head over there. Bring a cop if you need to (will one even agree to go with you?).



Ryan

 

[BTighe]

id take that cash strait to my lawyer. what a jerk! hes just wanting cash because he knows your in a bind and probably doesnt want to pay his taxes. do you even have proof the truck is fixed? is the truck behind a locked gate?

 

[Forrest Nearing]

I'd go steal it back... he doesn't have a lein on it yet. Posession is 9/10th of the law. If you've got it in your posession on the date he files a lean, he doesn't have a leg to stand on. If he files a lein on it, you're in trouble here.

 

[PBrauer]

Man did I see that coming... . if it's not obvious, he wants cash because he knows you can contest this bill in court later and beat him legally. If you take him to court and win, it'll take forever to get anything back in cash. At this point, I would try anything and everything to avoid giving him any cash. Refusing a certified/cashiers check is a bad sign... and probably a mistake on his part. Was anyone with you when you offered the check???



There's a good chance that this shop has history. Call the local COC, BBB, and the District Attorney. Don't complain yet... ASK QUESTIONS INSTEAD... Briefly tell your side then let them ask you questions. The more questions they ask, the more they already know. Remember that.



You need to contact a lawyer NOW. Whether you pay the bill or not... CALL A LAWYER... preferably one in or near that local area. If you can pay this bill, you can afford a $200 retainer. Pay it and they'll take you seriously. They might start researching his history and most importantly they'll either tell you REAL legal options or refer you to someone who can. Once you have a legitimate legal representitive contacting him, he'll start thinking about how he's doing business with you.



Hire the lawyer BEFORE you pay the bill, ESPECIALLY if you decide to pay cash... they will help you ensure that you have a proper record of the transaction, including evidence of consent or lack of consent, and some evidence that you are in fact questioning the total amount BEFORE paying. Once you pay, it might be arguable "legally" that you consented by paying. You want to have evidence that he is using possesion of the truck as leverage, even though you offered a legitamate method of payment already. That's powerful information that I guarantee will interest the DA's office... legal or not. A lawyer might even suggest that you "file" something with the DA.



Please call a lawyer... you might be surprised as some of the things they'll suggest you do that you wouldn't think of by yourself. They'll definately give you better advice than I or any other stranger could.



At this point I'd be careful what you mention here (forums) until you get the whole thing resolved... another good reason to call a lawyer. Everything you've shared so far seemed very reasonable to me. If you get to a point where you want "professional" advice from the forum, I'd solicite PM's, CALL them back, and don't forget... that shop probably has FRIENDS in this forum too. Don't get fooled into doing or saying something that hurts your case and don't assume anyone is on your side of the argument... you really need a lawyer.



http://www.nvbar.org/lris/lris.htm

http://www.nvbar.org/feedispute.htm



http://www.lvchamber.com/

can't find them listed



http://www.vegasbbb.org/

(Satisfactory w/3 complaints in 36mnths:

1 unresolved + 2 closed administratively

someone might be in court already... )

AND... only two of the eight shops listed have any complaints at all.

I searched "diesel"



http://www.jsdieselservice.com/

url listed with Vegas BBB, but it doesn't work???



Wonder what this is about:

http://courtgate.coca.co.clark.nv.us:8490/DistrictCourt/asp/Summary.asp

or what this was about:

http://courtgate.coca.co.clark.nv.us:8490/DistrictCourt/asp/Summary.asp

or these:

http://courtgate.coca.co.clark.nv.us:8490/DistrictCourt/asp/Summary.asp

http://courtgate.coca.co.clark.nv.us:8490/DistrictCourt/asp/Summary.asp

http://courtgate.coca.co.clark.nv.us:8490/DistrictCourt/asp/Summary.asp

http://courtgate.coca.co.clark.nv.us:8490/DistrictCourt/asp/CaseNoEdit.asp?CaseNo=91A295817

http://courtgate.coca.co.clark.nv.us:8490/DistrictCourt/asp/CaseNoEdit.asp?CaseNo=90A285136



They've sued and bee sued quite a few times.

These are from ONE quick search (corp. search, "diesel") here... .

http://courtgate.coca.co.clark.nv.us:8490/DistrictCourt/asp/SearchKeywordOptions.asp



Wonder what we could find in an hour vs fifteen minutes...

 

[Matt400]

Come to find out, the truck had been at a dealer for 4 months and the bill was over $5,000. New injector pump, ECM, wiring harneses, new rail, I didn't know any of those parts had been tried

It's interesting how people think it will cost more if they tell you all the gory details of what it has been through so they leave that out in hopes of something simple.

Reality is. . knowledge is power and armed with the proper knowledge can save serious time.



In machinemover's case I wonder if the shop knew the injectors had been out of this truck before. Stuff like that always puts up question's, what was the quality of the parts used, which ones changed, who did the work and if they were torqued correctly?



machinemover

Here is a PDF file on your rights:

http://ag.state.nv.us/newsroom/press/2007/NCPW2007AutoRepair.pdf

 

[machinemover]

Picked up Truck Saturday

I did take my truck, called LV Metro to go with me but they never showed up. I paid cash and got my truck. Was not exactly right as they cut the high idle jumper on the ecm, no big deal, the high idle doesn't work but I'll fix that. He did give me the old ecm and torque tubes. One of the torque tubes is scored real good, which leaves me to believe this was definitely the center of my problem. Everything else in my opinion was tacked on to my bill. DOn't think I needed injectors and I think the ecm read bad because of the great loss and miss direction of pressure in the tubes. The tube would leak back into the return this is why it was not detectable. I can see it taking awhile to find this, however (as I kick myself) about a year ago I was talking to Richard at Glacier Power about my problem and I was going to buy one of his kits. He asked me why I wanted one and what I was going to do then talked me out of it. Telling me this will not fix your problem, he said it is an easy fix and will be one of about five things with naming , guess what?, TORQUE TUBES. I forgot all about this until J and S found this problem. The mind is a wonderful thing and could have saved me $6500. Total for this repair job. $7700. If anyone is intrested in my invoice I will post it. Glad to have my truck back. Final thoughts. I think J and S knows there stuff for the most part, problem is they charge for their learning on my pocket book. James says he spent almost 4 full days on this truck finding the problem, I believe he did. This was not easy to find. However I feel had he done investigation, I even suggested calling Joe Donelly, who he says he knows, I believe this repair would have shaved the labor time to less then 4 hours. Thank you for all your concerns, I have not had time to read through all the posts as of yet and will be over the next few days. This is a great group of people and maybe I can pass my experiences on to the next guy so he doesn't have to go through what I have done... . Eric

 

[MMeier]

Eric, how is the truck doing?

 

[machinemover]

Truck is running much better! Turns out the main problem was the torque tubes on the injectors, leaking into the return. I could see a bad seat and wear on one. I tend to think this was found by mistake as he only found this when he was replacing the injectors. I feel I bought injectors I didn't need, but I need the truck for work so at least I am back on the road. Hopfully I won't have to bring my truck back there again as they are very expensive and a very hot head owner. However I will say there are very few places you can take a truck these days so I think they are one of the better equipt outfits in vegas.



I have another developing issue though and would like an opinion. When I am going under 5 mph, speeding up, slowing down, coasting or with clutch in or not, I get a bad shake..... carrier bearing or u-joints???? smooths out at higher speeds though. I am about to take off on a long trip and I want no breakdowns, anything I need to worry about or can I address this upon my return??