Twins with a B-1

[Lsfarm]

Over Under Twins

Jerry, check out his thread, it will give you some ideas and see some photos. Did you finish the lead sheet install??



greg L







https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=25629&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

 

[KWIKKURT]

Originally posted by Powder Extreme

Can somebody who knows more than me (which shouldn't be hard) tell me why it wouldn't work to use an HY-9cm

Thanks,

Jerry

Jerry, The Big turbo needs to be around twice the CFM of the Primary Turbo..... The Hy 9 Flows about half of what a B-1 will. ... For "KwikSpoolin" Boost I would suggest the KSB-1 for the Primary or maybe one of the Three B-1/At-4 Variations in R&D then the "BIG BROTHER" Turbo I was showing around at may maddness for the second turbo... . L8tr Kurt

 

[Powder Extreme]

Kurt, I was hoping I could use the B-1 as the big turbo, is that not a good idea? I don't want to O ring the head and all that, I plan on staying under 50 max boost. Am I way off base wanting to use a small turbo to feed the B-1?



Greg, I've been so dang busy I haven't even cleaned the truck up from the Canada/Muncie trip. The next week I had to go to Utah and Colorado, I did manage to slip into the Dyno day at Edge for a few hours though Andrea was less than thrilled Everybody that has ridden in it has commented it's quiter, even with just the little bit we did in Muncie.

 

[TxDieselKid]

Powder Extreme,

If you are looking for a "tiny twin" project, then get you HY, and hook it up with a HX40. No since in not trying it, since you could just slap on a HX35 in place of the HY if you are not happy. Remember though, you are going to be sending all that boost through that little HY, and all the exhause right back through that little 9cm housing.



There is a guy who sled pulls that I know who said his twins have a HX35 with a 22cm housing as the small turbo. 22 cm Housing!!! Think about it, and let us know what you think/do.



Andrew

 

[Lsfarm]

Wastegate

Andrew, what about using a small housing turbo, like the HY or HX, but modify the wastegate opening and valve to make it HUGE?? Then you would have fast spoolup and still have a large volume flowing to the big turbo once the wastegate opened??



It seems to me that having twins with large exhaust housings is fine for the top end and maximum power, but at the price of lower end lag.



Wouldn't the big wastegate solve the exhaust backpressure problem??



Just trying to figure this out... Greg L

 

[Cummins Corvette]

Remember that the small turbo is dealing with pre-compressed air. If you have a b1 flowing twice as much air as a hy35, then the b1 set to make 15 pounds of boost would be perfect for use with the hy. The hy is then flowing the same volume at twice the density for a total of twice the volume of an hy working with one atmosphere at the inlet. Whatcha think? It seems like it would work... ... ????

 

[csutton7]

guys think about this---FACT:



B1 or HX 35 or HX 40 with a monster turbo works--so why would you want to try two turbos that are similar in size when it's been proven not to work--our friend HVAC has tried the setup or close to it that you guys are jousting around and it didn't work---but hey if you have the turbos and want to have at it go ahead---just donesn't make sense when it's been done before and it didn't work---



Diesel Freak--look at HVAC's numbers -- I think he may have indirectly answered your ?... ...



HVAC- i think the truck was idling down the turnpike with the drivers foot on the brake

:--) ... chris

 

[Diesel Freak]

Originally posted by TxDieselKid

Powder Extreme,

If you are looking for a "tiny twin" project, then get you HY, and hook it up with a HX40. No since in not trying it, since you could just slap on a HX35 in place of the HY if you are not happy. Remember though, you are going to be sending all that boost through that little HY, and all the exhause right back through that little 9cm housing.



There is a guy who sled pulls that I know who said his twins have a HX35 with a 22cm housing as the small turbo. 22 cm Housing!!! Think about it, and let us know what you think/do.



Andrew

the HY/HX40 combo will have too much drive pressure.



I do however like the idea of using a modified (hogged out) HY as the Primary, and feeding it with an H2E. The HY has a single scroll housing, and drive pressure is equalized across all six cylinders, where on the HX cylinders 1, 2, and 3 see drive pressure all the time and when the wastgate opens only 4, 5, and 6 get vented. Using the HY simplifies things and a dual port wastgate is not required.



The compressor in my (sic) turbo is out of a turbo with a PR of 4:1 at a flow rate of 4 Kg/Sec. if it is fed with 10 psi of air at 4kg/sec... . boost should be at least 75 PSI... ... not the ideal 85 psi, but close.

 

[Diesel Freak]

Originally posted by csutton7



Diesel Freak--look at HVAC's numbers -- I think he may have indirectly answered your ?... ...



HVAC- i think the truck was idling down the turnpike with the drivers foot on the brake

:--) ... chris

I know... . I have a stinking suspition that the compressor side of the B-1 can flow 6Kg/Sec of air at a pressure ratio of 4. 5:1





10 psi at the inlet= 98psi... ... on paper only!

realisticly... I would expect a twin system using the B-1 as a primary... ... . fed with 10 PSI air to peak out a little lower... .

 

[Jim Fulmer]

Chris, I think most of the guys are looking for a cool air charge at 50 PSI if it will work(limited twins) I am too! I don't think I really needed 75 PSI or want to build my truck for it... ... you and HVAC are out of my price range but we love to hear from you so keep feeding us.



Jim

 

[Powder Extreme]

Jim, that's what I'm looking for. I still haven't figured out why I couldn't use a wastegated HY as the little turbo. Oh well, the search continues.



Chris, I have no doubt your setup works very well, but from what I understand you are building monster horsepower, I'll be happy around the 450 mark. How much lag does your setup have right off idle?

 

[TxDieselKid]

Re: Wastegate

Originally posted by Lsfarm

Andrew, what about using a small housing turbo, like the HY or HX, but modify the wastegate opening and valve to make it HUGE?? Then you would have fast spoolup and still have a large volume flowing to the big turbo once the wastegate opened??



It seems to me that having twins with large exhaust housings is fine for the top end and maximum power, but at the price of lower end lag.



Wouldn't the big wastegate solve the exhaust backpressure problem??



Just trying to figure this out... Greg L

Greg,

Remember that you are feeding boost into the HY with the bigger turbo, but remember the HY has a smaller compressior side, not to big of a difference though. So if you have a turbo that spools slow like Chris Strickland(Strit-9) at the truck pulls in Munice, than feed it into a HX35, think of the boost that comes from the 35 already, and add it up. Not with 2+2 but like Diesel Freak has done.



I know you are just trying to figure something up, but like you said in Munice... . "That Piers 40 spooled faster then my HY. " Now think of that 40 being feed boost already. LAG=NONE!



DF,

I completly agree with you, but sometimes people can not see the negitive side. I am not saying it will work, just if you really think it will work, try it.



Nowel, Chris, John(Sportbike) or ANYBODY who knows, PLEASE e-mail me if I am wrong.



Andrew



P. S. It VERY late, and I am VERY tired after pushing a broom/mop for 9 hours so I may not have made since in this post. Guess I will see tommorw when my inbox is full. :-laf

 

[Lsfarm]

Lag with twins

Andrew, when the engine is at idle, there will be zero boost on or from either turbo. So when we want to accellerate and add fuel to the cumbustion chamber the first turbo will spool first and it will be on it's own, the big turbo won't have had time or the volume of exhaust pressure to start creating any boost.



So for off-idle turbo lag, it doesn't matter if we have a single or twin turbos, the engine needs boost to burn the fuel we are asking it to burn. And the smaller the turbo wheels and exhaust housing, the faster it will spin up. The compounding of boost comes later.



Once any turbo has started creating some boost, there is less smoke and vitually no lag to throttle input. There may be some difference between the spoolup time because of the mass of the wheels and shaft on a really big turbo compared to a little HY. But I am concerned about off idle lag in daily driving.



Currently once I'm on the freeway at 80mph, the boost gauge needle gets whiplash when I punch the throttle. [instant 45#boost] What I want at this time is to keep the EGT gauge from getting the same whiplash or kink when it hits the upper peg



There may be a bottleneck at the compressor side of the HY in a twin setup, since the compressor housing is rather small, but if it is fed say 15psi and can boost that to 45psi with several hundred degrees cooler output temp, then I think the egts will also be a lot lower. This is the net result I'm looking for: No more lag than now, but cooler upper end boost.



The Piers HX40 [in Muncie] was being spooled by an engine that was reving up to about 17-1800 rpm when the throttle was punched, compared to my 14-1500 rpm. [the difference in torque converters] Piers and several other folks have convinced me that this was the reason that the bigger turbo had less off idle lag than my HY 'Nasty Nine' turbo.



Well it is getting close the the time to quite talking about it and start cutting and welding. I'm not sure when I will get to it though. Life is far too hectic right now.



greg L

 

[csutton7]

JFulmer---the concept will or should be the same--little turbo and big turbo-just different sizes, but I'm not sure you need that with the current setups out there they should give you that 50psi with cooler temps-with some more testing I'll get some EGT values at different psi's to give you guys--chris

 

[Strick-9]

TxDieselKid,



Since you brought up my truck, I guess I'll dive right in now.



You saw how much lag my single H2E had at Muncie. I tried a twin setup before Muncie that I planned on using there. I used the same H2E turbo, and added an hx-35 / 12 to the mix. Low end boost was amazing. I could drive around at 35-40 mph in 2nd gear and hold a steady 10 psi of boost. But the hx-35/12 bottlenecked too much at higher rpm. I could actually produce more peak boost and power with the single H2E than with the twin setup.



I thought I would throw that in. When I get more money to play with, I'll put the twins back on, but the housing will have to be MUCH bigger on the 35.



-Chris

 

[TxDieselKid]

Originally posted by Strick-9

TxDieselKid,



Since you brought up my truck, I guess I'll dive right in now.



You saw how much lag my single H2E had at Muncie. I tried a twin setup before Muncie that I planned on using there. I used the same H2E turbo, and added an hx-35 / 12 to the mix. Low end boost was amazing. I could drive around at 35-40 mph in 2nd gear and hold a steady 10 psi of boost. But the hx-35/12 bottlenecked too much at higher rpm. I could actually produce more peak boost and power with the single H2E than with the twin setup.



I thought I would throw that in. When I get more money to play with, I'll put the twins back on, but the housing will have to be MUCH bigger on the 35.



-Chris

Chris,

Thanks for stepping in here. I know you and Cord had played with twins, but I don't like to pull people into debates unless they come in on their own. Thanks.



Greg,

If this set didn't work, think about the bottleneck with th HY with a smaller compressior side, and a 9cm exhaust housing. If you do decide to try it, I hope it works. Maybe I am the one that fails to understand.



Andrew

 

[Lsfarm]

The end Goal

Andrew I can see that the compressor housing can be a bottleneck, but my end goal is not to set a new horsepower record, or pull or anything like that. I just want to have virtualy no lag with lower egt's than I have right now.



If I wanted to get the most out of the upper end I would not hesitate to just add a bigger turbo, I can brake torque to build boost, but to do that every day all the time is insane.



Driving in stop and go traffic is really a pain in the ass with a lot of turbo lag.



Later, Greg L

 

[TxDieselKid]

Re: The end Goal

Originally posted by Lsfarm

Driving in stop and go traffic is really a pain in the ass with a lot of turbo lag.



Later, Greg L

Good lord man, you already have one of Piers' HY's, with stage 3's if I remember right? What kind of lag could you have?



Like I say, please let us/me know how it works.



Andrew

 

[Lsfarm]

Turbo Lag- Who Me??

LOL Andrew, I don't have much lag with my setup, but I've tried other turbos on some of my previous trucks, so I have experienced some slow spooling turbos.



I think my current setup is about as good as it gets for no lag, at least with a tight torque converter.



I just don't want to get like some of those pulling trucks at Muncie all smoke and lag until 75 feet down the track. That's why I am going so slow with changing to twins or swapping for a B1 or PDR Hx40.

Whatever I come up with will have to be as good [very little lag] as I have with lower egts [more upper end air]. I'm already choking at high rpm with the HY, so anything I create to help breathing at high rpm will be an improvement. At least I hope so.



Strick-9, now that you have pulled with the H2e solo turbo, do you think you would have done better pulling that sled at Muncie with your twin setup? You said the twins had a little less upper end power but a lot less lag? It looked like the trucks that pulled well got the sled moving as fast as possible in the middle of the run and used that momentum to help get the sled to the end of the track. Of course that is just my observance from the sidelines.



Later, Greg L

 

[csutton7]

at the test and tune sled pull yesterday I hit 75,71 & 64psi---highest temp of the runs was on the 64psi run--all the way down the track-Cummnzpwer and I watched the boost and EGTs and they hovered around 1460 at 64 psi except at the very end when I was stopped dead by the sled and was spinning the tires she jumped up to 1563---on the 71 psi run I topped out at 1528, but I don't know at what stage--on the 75psi run I was lower than both of the others on the temps(my SPA guage gives me peaks #'s that I can recall), but again because I had to watch the track this time I wasn't able to garner all the info---this is so awesome because that means that I've dropped at least 200*(guage tops out at 1740* and I've pegged it more than once) from a high point and at least 300* when running down the track---sure wish I knew how far over 1740* I've been for a more accurate assessment, but anyway I think this is great----chris