I agree the environmental wackos aren't always right, however it's a fact that the sulfur causes more harmful emissions. Removing the sulfur to make ULSD is a good thing without question. .
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Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel Conversion
- Thread starter LightmanE300
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Well we have been running ULSD in all the trucks and the heavy equipment at my job for about two months or so now and I'm here to say it is MUCH better than that water diesel mix junk we were using . The last few days I have been driving a Heavy Duty 1998 Chevy with that straight axle , 19 inch wheels , a dump bed and that junkie V-8 diesel with the so call turbo on it . Now let me tell you it wont get out of its own way but it still smokes as bad as it ever has ( like a freight train ) even on ULSD but then again it has never been right . It always has motor trouble in fact it is on its second motor and it only has 50,000 miles on it . Well at least I know its on a second motor cause about a year ago when I was servicing it I could tell it had a brand new motor in it .
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Wayno, were you guys running that chevron water/diesel emulsion fuel? That stuff sure sounds a little crazy. Regardless, testing doesn't really mean much unless you have a mechanically sound engine to start with, which it doesn't sound like you guys have
Congrats on being pioneer testers of alternative fuels regardless... . someone has to!
Congrats on being pioneer testers of alternative fuels regardless... . someone has to!Actually my Wife prefers horses over pretty things and likes for her truck to make noise and smoke a little. 
I called around yesterday and spoke with several of the listed outlets. They are planning on selling Bio-diesel starting next spring but currently there are only 1 or 2 stores selling it on this side of the state. Almost all of the MFA dealers have it over in the farming side of Missouri. That reformulated gasoline is horrible. You wouldn't believe the difference in horsepower it makes on a dyno. It's a good thing they have knock sensors on late model gas burners to keep the engines from killing themselves with detonation. It already takes 4 gallons of 104 unleaded race gas mixed with 93 octane in my supercharged late model car to get rid of all the knock retard. The Wife has already suggested selling it to get another Dodge anyway. She is currently driving it and would rather drive a diesel truck. My ex-father-in-law has a 2000 acre farm so supporting farmers is very important to me from being in the farming business for 15 years with my first wife. And I'm tired of seeing farmland converted into subdivisions.
I called around yesterday and spoke with several of the listed outlets. They are planning on selling Bio-diesel starting next spring but currently there are only 1 or 2 stores selling it on this side of the state. Almost all of the MFA dealers have it over in the farming side of Missouri. That reformulated gasoline is horrible. You wouldn't believe the difference in horsepower it makes on a dyno. It's a good thing they have knock sensors on late model gas burners to keep the engines from killing themselves with detonation. It already takes 4 gallons of 104 unleaded race gas mixed with 93 octane in my supercharged late model car to get rid of all the knock retard. The Wife has already suggested selling it to get another Dodge anyway. She is currently driving it and would rather drive a diesel truck. My ex-father-in-law has a 2000 acre farm so supporting farmers is very important to me from being in the farming business for 15 years with my first wife. And I'm tired of seeing farmland converted into subdivisions.Mcoleman, have you told her the exhaust smells like french fries?
Sounds like you will sooner or later be burnin' the bean!
Sounds like you will sooner or later be burnin' the bean!
Why is the attitude that skepticism of ANY of the gov'ts "for your own good" policies is bad?
When I hear or see someone in this country make a statement like
"Don't expect to change their thoughts, but at least the EPA has the good sense to force them. "
I think to myself, what a gov't toady! ... this person would be first in line to rat out their neighbor for building a shed near a puddle of water ... or turn in their relatives to the gov't for anti-gov't statements (if it were Nazi Germany).
Blind belief in the EPA is like blind belief in fanatic Islam.
Removing the final bits of sulfur from diesel will become exponentially expensive ... possibly to the point that some refiners may pull out of the road-diesel business and switch their capacities to making gas, leading to diesel shortages ... and big price increases.
How can anyone make claims that "reducing the sulfur content" will "save 5000 lives and prevent blah blah blah thousands of cases of Asama". These are numbers pulled out the air like Sunday football predictions.
The EPA, like any non-elected group with limitless power to make law, will use what ever means to justify their rulings including bogus "studies" and such. Their ultimate goal will be the control of US manufacturing/business via edict and the dispensing of private property rights. And statements like "but at least the EPA has the good sense to force them. " Is what these people like to hear.
like i said before it's your attitude. You know what, people use to dose themselves with DDT, and sprayed it all over themselves, their houses, the ground, everywhere. It killed bugs and hey didn't hurt people right? It was OK to use... until they proved (they being the people you think are lunatics, out to get you, take all your money, and laugh at you while doing) that DDT slowly was stored in your body, and over time proved to be extremely harmful.
In fact they are now seeing the same type of build up from fire retardants, and in the forseeable future a new limitation, that will profoundly affect consumers will be passed.
There are countless products that this applies too, and if your too foolish to believe that then you have other issues to contend with as well. Try considering that there is always a better way of doing something, always a way to improve, with out a drive to make anything better we'd still be wondering what the hell fire was for.
I'm very thankful that people with your attitude do not make decisions that effect the future of science, or the future of our nation, or the future of the world.
There's a term for people like you, i'm just not at liberty to use it in a public place.
In fact they are now seeing the same type of build up from fire retardants, and in the forseeable future a new limitation, that will profoundly affect consumers will be passed.
There are countless products that this applies too, and if your too foolish to believe that then you have other issues to contend with as well. Try considering that there is always a better way of doing something, always a way to improve, with out a drive to make anything better we'd still be wondering what the hell fire was for.
I'm very thankful that people with your attitude do not make decisions that effect the future of science, or the future of our nation, or the future of the world.
There's a term for people like you, i'm just not at liberty to use it in a public place.
Fatcat, it's not the final bits of sulfur, its a TON of sulfur. Going from 500ppm to 15 ppm is a major difference, although I don't expect you to understand... .
RH, this is the first I've ever posted or discussed it, so I'd have to go with your second conclusion
We were running Purinox made by Luberzoil . It didn't seem to make much difference what condition the trucks (or equipment) was in . That stuff just smoke real bad and smell (exhaust) like s*!t and the trucks(and equipment) had no power and would not get out of their own way . I got to drive our F- Series(750) 97 or 98 Ford dump truck yesterday that has a Cummins in it with a six speed transmission and it runs so much better on the ULSD and it did not smoke a bit and it had a lot of power and it would run 72 mph . I was impressed .Originally posted by LightmanE300
Wayno, were you guys running that chevron water/diesel emulsion fuel? That stuff sure sounds a little crazy. Regardless, testing doesn't really mean much unless you have a mechanically sound engine to start with, which it doesn't sound like you guys have
. . now if they would just legalize pot and tax the crap out of it... ... :-laf
Mike Ellis
TDR MEMBER
rhickman,
Your comments on DDT are very interesting. Several months back, I watched a show (Discovery channel?) that went over the DDT controversy - and surprise! Current info indicates that DDT wasn't all that bad after all. Given the increase in mosquito-vectored diseases like West Nile virus her in the states, and the continuing problems with malaria etc in undeveloped countries, a serious argument could be made that the anti-DDT campaign actually COST lives.
I think you guys should be a bit more careful in slamming somebody like FATCAT just because his viewpoint doesn't match yours. Disagreement DOES NOT necessarily equate to ignorance, if you think it does then you haven't done much debating or studying. Perhaps it is his mode of expression (style) that bothers you more than his actual comments? No need to slam him.
As far as the risks of diesel exhaust, in general I suspect any human would concede that cleaner air = better quality of life. However, it is not so obvious exactly what components of pollution merit the most attention. Just about everything we humans do ends up polluting or changing the environment. Trivial example: people love that "new car smell". That smell is actually the outgassing of plastics etc in the car, and those vapors are in no way, shape, or form "good for you".
We put fluoride in our municipal water supplies, as the prevention of cavities is considered to be worth the introduction of a minute amount of poison. Reasonable? Probably, but the fact is that such systems are typically introduced with little or no public debate, "Just because we say so. " Take your kids to public school, and you WILL get them vaccinated. What if you are one of those old-fashioned folks that thinks the natural immunity from suffering through the milder diseases like chicken pox is desirable, and don't want your kids vaccinated? Tough, you do it "because we say so" or take your kids elsewhere.
When we were 5 years old, the "just because" answer from Mom and Dad didn't satisfy us. Why, as adults, is it so horrible for people to question the rulings that are impressed upon us?
As far as pollution goes, the only way to improve things is to get people to ZIP IT UP and quit flocking together into cities. People like to congregate like grackles in a pecan tree, and just like the birds we leave a huge sprinkling of our filth and byproducts under the tree. Go to the Middle East, and you can easily spot the location of ancient cities by the presence of a large artificial mound known as a "tel", as in Tel Aviv for instance. Good examples abound, at Meggido, Jericho, etc. Why is there a hill? Because the people living there over the centuries literally built their city upward millimeter by millimeter, year by year, upon their own trash and waste. Thousands of years later, people in the big cities are still repeating that process - looks like we haven't learned much.
In the 1800's, the USA operated on steam and flame. Household and industrial heating / cooking denuded entire forests, and put the cities under an endless pall of smoke and soot. Our air today is far cleaner, our water tremendously purer, our food cleaner, in fact things are much cleaner and nicer in just about every way. Bring those guys forward in time, and they would be astounded by the simple act of getting clean, disease free water from a faucet anywhere, anytime, with quality that even a king couldn't have enjoyed in their time.
Is there still room for improvement today? ABSOLUTELY. But what improvements are worth the extra money? For people in the cities, low sulfur might be critical. But why should the rest of the nation have to switch over too just because there are so many people who want to live in a big soup bowl of each other's emissions and byproducts?
Questioning EPA policies does not signify ignorance, it signifies suspicion (and perhaps, cynicism). Considering history and the often-suspect motivations of our fellow men, perhaps there is justification for both.
Your comments on DDT are very interesting. Several months back, I watched a show (Discovery channel?) that went over the DDT controversy - and surprise! Current info indicates that DDT wasn't all that bad after all. Given the increase in mosquito-vectored diseases like West Nile virus her in the states, and the continuing problems with malaria etc in undeveloped countries, a serious argument could be made that the anti-DDT campaign actually COST lives.
I think you guys should be a bit more careful in slamming somebody like FATCAT just because his viewpoint doesn't match yours. Disagreement DOES NOT necessarily equate to ignorance, if you think it does then you haven't done much debating or studying. Perhaps it is his mode of expression (style) that bothers you more than his actual comments? No need to slam him.
As far as the risks of diesel exhaust, in general I suspect any human would concede that cleaner air = better quality of life. However, it is not so obvious exactly what components of pollution merit the most attention. Just about everything we humans do ends up polluting or changing the environment. Trivial example: people love that "new car smell". That smell is actually the outgassing of plastics etc in the car, and those vapors are in no way, shape, or form "good for you".
We put fluoride in our municipal water supplies, as the prevention of cavities is considered to be worth the introduction of a minute amount of poison. Reasonable? Probably, but the fact is that such systems are typically introduced with little or no public debate, "Just because we say so. " Take your kids to public school, and you WILL get them vaccinated. What if you are one of those old-fashioned folks that thinks the natural immunity from suffering through the milder diseases like chicken pox is desirable, and don't want your kids vaccinated? Tough, you do it "because we say so" or take your kids elsewhere.
When we were 5 years old, the "just because" answer from Mom and Dad didn't satisfy us. Why, as adults, is it so horrible for people to question the rulings that are impressed upon us?
As far as pollution goes, the only way to improve things is to get people to ZIP IT UP and quit flocking together into cities. People like to congregate like grackles in a pecan tree, and just like the birds we leave a huge sprinkling of our filth and byproducts under the tree. Go to the Middle East, and you can easily spot the location of ancient cities by the presence of a large artificial mound known as a "tel", as in Tel Aviv for instance. Good examples abound, at Meggido, Jericho, etc. Why is there a hill? Because the people living there over the centuries literally built their city upward millimeter by millimeter, year by year, upon their own trash and waste. Thousands of years later, people in the big cities are still repeating that process - looks like we haven't learned much.
In the 1800's, the USA operated on steam and flame. Household and industrial heating / cooking denuded entire forests, and put the cities under an endless pall of smoke and soot. Our air today is far cleaner, our water tremendously purer, our food cleaner, in fact things are much cleaner and nicer in just about every way. Bring those guys forward in time, and they would be astounded by the simple act of getting clean, disease free water from a faucet anywhere, anytime, with quality that even a king couldn't have enjoyed in their time.
Is there still room for improvement today? ABSOLUTELY. But what improvements are worth the extra money? For people in the cities, low sulfur might be critical. But why should the rest of the nation have to switch over too just because there are so many people who want to live in a big soup bowl of each other's emissions and byproducts?
Questioning EPA policies does not signify ignorance, it signifies suspicion (and perhaps, cynicism). Considering history and the often-suspect motivations of our fellow men, perhaps there is justification for both.
I used DDT heavily for years growing apples, didn't really matter that it was banned, it wasn't working anymore anyway. The insects resistant to the chemical go on to breed that trait into their offspring and pretty soon they're all resistant. Banning DDT was good in that it forced research into new pesticides that don't have a wide spectrum like DDT, i. e. the new ones only kill the target insects instead of everything that moves. Believe it or not most insects are beneficial, not pests. That's the big problem with ultra-violet bug zappers, most of the insects they kill are beneficial.
My brother is a "bug guy" and could really get into this bug killer stuff. I used DDT merely as an example, because it's all i could think of at the time. DDT contains an agent, big ole name, that they had proven to accumulate and cause serious problems... and as far as I know was still fact. Mike may have pointed to some information i wasn't aware of.
Everyone knows the asbestos thing by now right... same deal. What worked then isn't working out so good now. My dad has asbestos tile in his kitchen he wants to pull up. He has serious lung problems and i warned him not to do it himself.
There are many chemicals i'm sure we use now that may be harmful. Funny you bring flouride up, they just voted on that last November here and it BARELY passed. They are still litigating and fighting to put it in the water. Half want it, Half don't the minute rest just don't care (like me). I grew up with it in my water, still don't have a cavity, and think either way will work (i brush my teeth).
One thing that frustrates me is when people think "studies" are stupid, and the EPA are a bunch of whackos. Man they are not out to get anyone, they are paid to analyze problems and propose answers and solutions. To blantantly say science is stupid and the studies are all wrong is just ridiculous... where is their proof of such foolishness, where is their proof of the EPA having it out for a certain industry. They just make assumptions and think everyone else is insane.
Pollution is a problem, has been a problem, and will be a problem always. We consume the earth and there is no way around it.
However, that doesn't mean we can't consume it in a more reasonable fashion to make things a little better or last a little longer.
Everyone knows the asbestos thing by now right... same deal. What worked then isn't working out so good now. My dad has asbestos tile in his kitchen he wants to pull up. He has serious lung problems and i warned him not to do it himself.
There are many chemicals i'm sure we use now that may be harmful. Funny you bring flouride up, they just voted on that last November here and it BARELY passed. They are still litigating and fighting to put it in the water. Half want it, Half don't the minute rest just don't care (like me). I grew up with it in my water, still don't have a cavity, and think either way will work (i brush my teeth).
One thing that frustrates me is when people think "studies" are stupid, and the EPA are a bunch of whackos. Man they are not out to get anyone, they are paid to analyze problems and propose answers and solutions. To blantantly say science is stupid and the studies are all wrong is just ridiculous... where is their proof of such foolishness, where is their proof of the EPA having it out for a certain industry. They just make assumptions and think everyone else is insane.
Pollution is a problem, has been a problem, and will be a problem always. We consume the earth and there is no way around it.
However, that doesn't mean we can't consume it in a more reasonable fashion to make things a little better or last a little longer.
If I was president, I would NUKE you all.
OOPs wrong thread.
Anyway, being human you don't know everything, as far as studies go, often times the researcher's bias causes them to skew the data, anyone with any common sense knows this is easy to do. Recent breast milk studies showed a high percentage of women had contaminants in there milk. 20 women, hmm, they signed up on the Internet, no blinds, no control group. Flawed study? You bet.
So being skeptical is not a flaw in character, but a virtue!
Wasn't it Ben Franklin who said "In all things skepticism"
"Sarcasm as an art is dead"
OOPs wrong thread.
Anyway, being human you don't know everything, as far as studies go, often times the researcher's bias causes them to skew the data, anyone with any common sense knows this is easy to do. Recent breast milk studies showed a high percentage of women had contaminants in there milk. 20 women, hmm, they signed up on the Internet, no blinds, no control group. Flawed study? You bet.
So being skeptical is not a flaw in character, but a virtue!
Wasn't it Ben Franklin who said "In all things skepticism"
"Sarcasm as an art is dead"
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They attributed the decline of the California Brown Pelican to DDT, said it was causing thin eggshells. After DDT was banned the problem continued.
Researchers finally figured out that the research was what was causing the problem!
They were basically disturbing the nesting birds too much.
After the researchers pulled out the pelican has gone from endangered to a downright pest.
Researchers finally figured out that the research was what was causing the problem!
They were basically disturbing the nesting birds too much.
After the researchers pulled out the pelican has gone from endangered to a downright pest.
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