Undercover stuff on the Juice/Attitude

[Matt400]

I dont have one (yet) but I did get my hands on the instruction manual for the 03-04's, read through it and came across a few items that confused me and got me to thinking...



Here on TDR is where I read it is a timing/duration box. If so, why the connection to the Pressure Transducer and no connections to either the crank or cam sensors?



They say:

At full engine temperature (174 deg F) the Juice also starts modifying timing.

Thats vague to me for what one of these costs, I am one of those that wants to know how much advance on the various levels, with no cam or crank connections one might guess they "modify" the timing curve, but overall dont advance any at all.



They show the thermocouple mounted to monitor the front 3 cylinders rather than the back 3, this combined with 1350 as their recommended EGT limit seems like it would make for a pretty warm back 3. For those on the Juice- did you mount on the back 3 or by the instructions?



Last is the Boost Elbow- Its included in the kit but in the instructions say it's just optional and dont recommend or discourage from using it. They say it allows for greater than 20 psi but since 24 psi is reported as the max usable limit would you run the elbow and set boost defueling at 25 or not use the elbow and let the wastegate do its thing?



I am going to call them and ask but I also wanted to ask here for any info Juice users or other perspective buyers are finding out.

 

[BIG BOB]

Matt,



The Juice for the 04. 5 & 05 are timing and duration. The Juice for the 555 03-04 are timing, duration and pressure. It appears to me that you may have an old Juice manual. Reason being, when the Beta Juice came out in May of 2004 (I am a Beta Tester) they didn't have pressure. However, this spring (05) Edge realized that by adding pressure to the 555 Juice it solved some of the problems they were having with the 555 Juice. In the first Beta Juice manuals, there were a few details that needed to be revised. I haven't seen the latest manual, but my guess is that it has been revised.



I don't know of any performance manufacture that will tell you the timing advance on each level. Why would you expect Edge to?



As far as the pyro, it is a personal choice, I put mine here:



#ad




Boost elbow on the 03-04 555 should be used. It does allow your boost to reach 40#'s and possibly more, depending on your turbo and fuel. 04. 5-05 do not use the boost elbows, because of their electronic wastegates, unless they have after market turbos.



Quote:

"but since 24 psi is reported as the max usable limit" Quote



This statement is not true, any time you have more air flow it cools better and that allows you to add more fuel for more power. Of course there are limits for boost levels depending on your turbo and engine.

 

[Matt400]

It appears to me that you may have an old Juice manual.

I just opened the box, its not mine but was ordered for a friends CA SO and says 03-04 on the box, it does say 305 on the manual but the order was specified for a CA SO.

I don't know of any performance manufacture that will tell you the timing advance on each level. Why would you expect Edge to?

Buy any HP devise that changes timing in the world of gas motors and they give you the data so you have the ability to make various other decisions on mods and the way you dial in what you want. I just find it odd in the diesel world they think we don't care what its changing.

"but since 24 psi is reported as the max usable limit"

This statement is not true, any time you have more air flow it cools better and that allows you to add more fuel for more power.

Hrmm, I thought the HY35 began to produce a ton more heat with each psi past 24 and thus no more air molecules.

 

[BIG BOB]

Hrmm, I thought the HY35 began to produce a ton more heat with each psi past 24 and thus no more air molecules.

No, more like 34 to 36#'s on a 3rd gen with a stock turbo.

 

[Matt400]

Oh, I thought I read 24 somewhere in issue 48. I know in the Juice manual they say to limit it to 36 for safety. Where you put your pyro is the same spot I put mine for my gauge on the 03 I had and seems to be where most everyone does, I just wondered why Edge would use a different and most likely cooler spot.

 

[Evan A. Beck]

We did some testing at the shop, and found about 24-25 psi is the most you want to run on the HY9 turbo. Anything higher than that, and the air is superheated and actually takes power away. Also, drive pressure becomes a real issue. On my '03, the drive pressure at 25 psi boost was 30 psi. At 35 psi boost with the elbow installed, it made 75 psi drive pressure. Plus, EGT was lower and the HP was higher by about 25 without the boost elbow installed.

 

[CLAYTON]

I know that after I put the boost elbow on I went over Parleys Summit about 12 mph faster because I was running cooler temps. Go figure

 

[KLockliear]

Here on TDR is where I read it is a timing/duration box. If so, why the connection to the Pressure Transducer and no connections to either the crank or cam sensors?



They say:

Thats vague to me for what one of these costs, I am one of those that wants to know how much advance on the various levels, with no cam or crank connections one might guess they "modify" the timing curve, but overall dont advance any at all.

Since the Juice is actually driving the injectors (hence the connection at the injector connectors on the drivers' side of the head), they know what the duration and timing are. They can then modify or adjust it right there.

 

[JStieger]

What Juice version is Edge at with the 305/555 version? At around 2100 rpms (+/-) I get the power dropping off at a constant peddle position. Then when the rpms drop the power picks up again for the same peddle position. This happens on all Juice levels except for OFF. Also, doesn't happen when I put the Van Aaken pressure box back on. In my emails with Edge, they said that fuel pressure is only in to about 2100 rpms (or 41% load) so I was wondering if what I am seeing is the fuel pressure portion of the programmed fueling map being turned "off" and then switching to another fueling map with only duration and timing?



If I put the cruise control on, this thing never happens probably because of bypassing the APPS and going directly to the ECM????



Weird electronic juju going on here!

 

[qzilla]

Since the Juice is actually driving the injectors (hence the connection at the injector connectors on the drivers' side of the head), they know what the duration and timing are. They can then modify or adjust it right there.

You can't know what the timing is based strictly off of the pulse. You know the exact pulse, but you must have something to reference it back to. Otherwise how do you tell when TDC is? There is no sync on the injection pulse to ever give you that info. So basically if they have nothing to reference it from then they can only lengthen the trailing edge of the pulse.



Now with that said if they are hooked to the CAN BUS they can reference the RPM, but engine timing is too critical to try and match the rpm to the pulses.



I know how they are doing the timing and such, but I really don't feel the need to disclose that. I just know that the above mentioned method won't work for timing.





Quad

 

[Matt400]

I would bet the timing adjustment is small in comparison to what TST is doing and they manage to modify it through changes in the MAP signal.

 

[Tomeygun]

I would bet the timing adjustment is small in comparison to what TST is doing and they manage to modify it through changes in the MAP signal.

By the way... I hate to be the bear'er or bad news (to EDGE), But the 06 trucks don't have any DATA link that I can see...



AND Mark @ TST already has a PMCR on his 06 he just bought... Runs just fine... No changes needed - But EDGE has got some work to do to make a duration box without use of the data port



Darn those dodge engineers :-laf

 

[Matt400]

Quad probably wont like that either since they too use that port.

 

[RankRam]

By the way... I hate to be the bear'er or bad news (to EDGE), But the 06 trucks don't have any DATA link that I can see...



AND Mark @ TST already has a PMCR on his 06 he just bought... Runs just fine... No changes needed - But EDGE has got some work to do to make a duration box without use of the data port



Darn those dodge engineers :-laf

Edge said it will be out next month... ... ... :-laf

 

[Matt400]

Edge said it will be out next month... ... ... :-laf

That was good for an after dinner laugh :-laf :-laf

 

[Bob4x4]

By the way... I hate to be the bear'er or bad news (to EDGE), But the 06 trucks don't have any DATA link that I can see...



AND Mark @ TST already has a PMCR on his 06 he just bought... Runs just fine... No changes needed - But EDGE has got some work to do to make a duration box without use of the data port



Darn those dodge engineers :-laf

Look at the injector connectors. they are different also as well as a nicer looking valve cover.



Bob

 

[Matt400]

as well as a nicer looking valve cover.

True, but not a nice as this one

#ad

 

[Bob4x4]

True, but not a nice as this one

#ad

Very true but much less work. Now I just need to find the time and put one together in atlantic blue



Bob

 

[Matt400]

Now I just need to find the time and put one together in atlantic blue

Just a thought. . When you do get one, take it to your local body shop with your paint code and have them spray it for a real nice job and perfect match.

 

[qzilla]

Quad probably wont like that either since they too use that port.

Its ok with me, new stuff does not rely on the port.



Plenty of new stuff in testing.