using exhaust brake to help warm?

[JR]

Add on? Read the drivers instructions. They're from cummins. Whether an engine is pre or post emissions has nothing to do with your argument.

Drivers instructions from whom? You answered none of my questions, including my original assessment. What do you suppose has less negative effect on an engine? A block heater for a prescribed interval prior to start up, or a cold start/high idle/EB. That was essentially the question of the OP. I will eagerly await your response while you "manipulate" the goal post

 

[JR]

One last line of thought, and I'm moving on, since this is most evidently an old wives tale that some are having a hard time moving past. Anyone who wishes to prove or disprove what is less detremintal on an engine, look at All off the HD platforms that promote longevity over operator comfort . Every single modern engine manufacturer that I've been involved with has a minimum ECT of between 40+60*F before the EB/CB will even activate. Don't believe me? Do some research.

 

[jhenderson]

That would be the drivers instructions from Cummins included in the Jacobs Brake installation kit. You know, the one I gave you the info to look up, but you refused? The one Ozy gave you the direct link to? Now again, why does our exhaust brake activate at an idle until the engine reaches operating temp if it’s detrimental ? One of us believes a wives tail all right!

 

[gsbrockman]

Found this in the Diesel Supplement....

 

[SnoKing]

Encase someone failed to read this earlier.

NOTE: If ambient temperatures are low and the coolant
temperature is below 180°F (82°C), the engine idle speed
will slowly increase to 1,000 RPM after two minutes of
idle, if the following conditions are met:
• Foot is off brake pedal and throttle pedal.
• Automatic transmission is in PARK.
• Vehicle speed is 0 mph (0 km/h).
• Applying the throttle will cancel fast idle.
• Operating the exhaust brake at idle will greatly improve
warm up rate and will help keep the engine
close to operating temperature during extended idle.
Engine Idling
Avoid prolonged idling, long periods of idling may be
harmful to your engine because combustion chamber
temperatures can drop so low that the fuel may not burn
completely. Incomplete combustion allows carbon and

varnish to form on piston rings, engine valves, and
injector nozzles. Also, the unburned fuel can enter the
crankcase, diluting the oil and causing rapid wear to the
engine.
If the engine is allowed to idle, under some conditions
the idle speed may increase to 900 RPM then return to
normal idle speed. This is normal operation.
NOTE: For EVIC/DID messages related to the vehicle’s
exhaust system, refer to “Electronic Vehicle Information
Center (EVIC)” or “Driver Information Display (DID)”
for further information.
Idle-Up Feature — Automatic Transmission Only
The driver-controlled high idle speed feature will help
increase cylinder temperatures and provide additional
cab heat, however, excessive idling may still cause the
exhaust aftertreatment system to not properly regenerate.
Extended periods of idle time should be avoided.
The Idle-Up feature uses the speed control switches to
increase engine idle speed and quickly warm the vehicle’s
interior.
1. With the transmission in PARK, the parking brake
applied, and the engine running, press the speed
control switch to the ON position, then press the SET
switch.
2. The engine RPM will go up to 1100 RPM. To increase
the RPM, press and hold the ACCEL/RESUME switch
and the idle speed will increase to approximately 1500
RPM. To decrease the RPM, press and hold the DECEL
switch and the idle speed will decrease to approximately
1100 RPM.
3. To cancel the Idle–Up feature, either press the CANCEL
switch, press the ON/OFF switch, or press the
brake pedal.

This one relates to my exhaust brake coming on at stop lights in gear when the engine is still cold:
The exhaust brake feature can also be used to reduce the
engine warm up time. To use the exhaust brake as a
warm-up device, the vehicle must be stopped or moving
less than 5 mph (8 km/h), the #Exhaust Brake Indicator#
must be on, and the coolant temperature must be below
180°F (82°C) and ambient temperature below 60°F (16°C).

 

[kthaxton]

Oh snap!

 

[JR]

That would be the drivers instructions from Cummins included in the Jacobs Brake installation kit. You know, the one I gave you the info to look up, but you refused? The one Ozy gave you the direct link to

Ahh yes, the 14 year old literature again.

Now again, why does our exhaust brake activate at an idle until the enginereaches operating temp if it’s detrimental ?

You do realize it does not activate on its own right? The button must manually be pushed or its high idle only. Thats how my 14 works, I asked for clarification early on and wasnt corrected so I'm assuming nothing has changed.
I'm going to ask the question one last time in hopes of someone having a valid answer. Why is it not part of the factory programming? If Cummins felt it was beneficial to the ENGINE, not the operator, to engage the EB immediately on start up, then why is the factory programming high idle only? Do you think it's possible in the last 14 years (16 years for the literature Ozy posted) they've changed their position, perhaps adding back pressure on a COLD SOAKED ENGINE - caps for emphasis - has some long term negative side effects if used regularly? Or do you think it was just silly over sight on their part? Its a legitimate question, one I have asked several times, and not gotten a legitimate answer to.

Since the manual is posted for everyone to read, steps 4,5, and 6 in starting and operating is what is really pertinent to the subject. The OP asked what is recommended. Essentially, start, allow oil pressure to come up, and drive. Idling to warm up, with or without the EB is not. That is pointed out more than once in the manual.

 

[Newsa]

I wouldn't be concerned about any of it either if I lived in a region that barely sees temps below 50*. I don't do any warm up at those temps and below other than to let the oil pressure come up.
Everyone seems to be missing the most basic point I'm making here. Going back to what Cummins recommends, not an exhaust brake manufacturer but Cummins, they specifically state in the manual to start up, allow oil pressure to fully come up, and drive easy until operating temps come up. Every single engine manufacturer I've seen recommends the same. We can all agree on their reasoning, can we not agree that Putting unnecessary back pressure on a cold engine exacerbates the problem. It may only be a minute or two before the pistons/rings expand enough but it is still happening. Running a block heater for an hour and a half in single digit weather costs me less than 7 cents and gets my ECT up to 60-70*F if I have my winter front on. Cummins says anything over 5-10 minutes idling on a cold engine is considered excessive, I doubt you could hit 70* ECT from a cold start by fast idling with or without an EB, and you'd likely be burning more than 7 cents worth of fuel to do so.

You act as if I never started my 2013 Cummins in subzero weather. I've had cold starts all the way from -17°F to 40 °F when traveling. With full knowledge of a small amount of back pressure/load on the engine, I had no concern about additional soot blow by caused by the increased tolerances between rings and cylinder walls. Of course I accept that when a 17.3:1 compression ignition cylinder ignites it's fuel the cylinder pressures will reach several hundreds of psi. (The largest psi likely being at the top half of the downstroke due to the lower cyl volume & crank angle) the additional 30 +/- psi created by the EB backpressure doesn't mount up to a hill of beans (relative to combustion pressure) for the several minutes of operation that occur before the cylinder reaches temps enough to allow the metal to expand.

I use 15w-40 synthetic (or high quality syn blend) even at these cold start temps. The 15w 40 helps seal the cylinder rings better than a 5w 40 in my.opiniom. And 15w 40 oils like amsoil, redline, and Kendall Super D XA all have lower cold pour points than Rotella T6 (5w 40). My research shows that as long as the cold pour point is 20° F lower than the ambient temps, it is pumped through the jets, galley and other spaces fine.

I was not able to plug in the block heater at the hotels we were staying at (-8°F to 32°F) But I was able to plug in at the coldest start temp.of -17°F during our trip last winter.

I've said it before..... Thanks to the expert advise of several on this forum (Snoking, Brockman, AHID (i am drawing a blank on his full TDR name , but goes by John), and JDoremire as well as others), I was able to get my rear fuel filter heater turned on before that trip and while I was still in my 3/36 warranty.
I was also educated to use a fuel degell agent/additive especially when fueling up in Florida and driving into colder environments with fuel that was not adequately blended for those cold temps. Things that I would not have been aware of OR might not have been front of mind when preparing for a long trip. A friend of mine who had a 98 12 Valve (or was it a 97?)said these forums are a gold mine of info. I agree with him on that

 

[jhenderson]

You have to put your truck in gear also. Why doesn’t it automatically engage drive upon start up? You need to turn on your heater. The truck knows it’s cold. Why doesn’t it turn on the heater automatically? That’s how foolish you sound. Did you bother to read the posted owners manual excerpts from the other members, or are you ignoring the facts that prove you wrong? You’ve been shown factory info multiple times. That info from Jacobs covers up to the last production 5.9 motors. When a vgt was introduced the Jake became obsolete, as did the drivers manual. Actual engine operation hasn’t changed. Facts are what they are. No matter when the information was disseminated.
Your ex brake must be turned on because some road conditions make its use dangerous. Did you fail to understand that too?
Are you running out of straws to grasp yet?

 

[Ozymandias]

And maybe someone doesn't want the noise of the EB on under all conditions.

 

[kthaxton]

Just because forum members can't answer a question about Cummins engineers reasons for this or that, doesn't mean forum members are wrong.

 

[Newsa]

Your ex brake must be turned on because some road conditions make its use dangerous. Did you fail to understand that too?
Are you running out of straws to grasp yet?

This does answer JR's question about why the EB is not automatically turned on in 2500 & 3500 trucks. But might be turned on automatically in 4500 and up commercial trucks. Of course, the commercial truck guys have enough experience to manually turn it off if dangerous.
****************************
And so does this (explains the 2500-3500 manual engagement of EB)

And maybe someone doesn't want the noise of the EB on under all conditions

 

[SnoKing]

Ahh yes, the 14 year old literature again.



You do realize it does not activate on its own right? The button must manually be pushed or its high idle only. Thats how my 14 works, I asked for clarification early on and wasnt corrected so I'm assuming nothing has changed.
I'm going to ask the question one last time in hopes of someone having a valid answer. Why is it not part of the factory programming? If Cummins felt it was beneficial to the ENGINE, not the operator, to engage the EB immediately on start up, then why is the factory programming high idle only? Do you think it's possible in the last 14 years (16 years for the literature Ozy posted) they've changed their position, perhaps adding back pressure on a COLD SOAKED ENGINE - caps for emphasis - has some long term negative side effects if used regularly? Or do you think it was just silly over sight on their part? Its a legitimate question, one I have asked several times, and not gotten a legitimate answer to.

Since the manual is posted for everyone to read, steps 4,5, and 6 in starting and operating is what is really pertinent to the subject. The OP asked what is recommended. Essentially, start, allow oil pressure to come up, and drive. Idling to warm up, with or without the EB is not. That is pointed out more than once in the manual.

Your truck does not automatically plug itself in when it is cold either, right? Or is yours super talented and able to do that?

 

[Cummins12V98]

Kinda sorta answers the topic at hand!

"• Operating the exhaust brake at idle will greatly improve
warm up rate and will help keep the engine
close to operating temperature during extended idle.
Engine Idling
Avoid prolonged idling, long periods of idling may be
harmful to your engine because combustion chamber
temperatures can drop so low that the fuel may not burn
completely. Incomplete combustion allows carbon and

varnish to form on piston rings, engine valves, and
injector nozzles. Also, the unburned fuel can enter the
crankcase, diluting the oil and causing rapid wear to the
engine."

 

[JR]

Sounding foolish? Hmm. Lets see here. What happens when you touch the service brake when the truck has automatically ramped up on high idle to put the truck in gear? It cancels the high idle. Pretty impressive what simple programming can do isnt it? It's not rocket science. If they wanted the EB on a cold soaked engine ALONG WITH THE HIGH IDLE it would be a simple task to implement. Trucks in park, speed sensor 0, ECT/IAT below a certain threshold. The same parameters as the high idle. It's literally that simple. Comparing programming To turning a heater on or putting your truck in gear or inciting the EB would have to be on all the time under any other conditions is both foolish and childish. Exactly what I would expect!

Did you bother to read the posted owners manualexcerpts from the other members, or are you ignoring the facts that prove you wrong?

Yep, and I've been following it since the day I bought my truck. You know, the part that says start, allow oil pressure to come up, and drive? That part. Not start, press EB button, go back inside to my safe spot, and wait for the truck to get nice and toasty and make a habit of letting my truck idle off the EB for long periods . Start, clean windows off, and go. The cold don't hurt ya, and your not doing the truck any favors by letting it run until it's cozy enough for you to get into. Read the manual right? If I know I'm going to be driving my truck ahead of time, and I usually do because I don't use it for misc errands, I use the block heater on a timer. No engine wear, no wasted fuel. Instant coolant temps between 60-80* off of 2 hours worth of electricity depending on ambient temps. THAT is the recommendation for ROUTINE OPERATION. Pretty simple concept.

Are you running out of straws to grasp yet?

Not grasping at anything, but I am definitely done trying to have a conversation with someone as pugnacious as you. Count to 10 and breath! You'll be ok.

 

[jhenderson]

I breath just fine, thanks. Pugnacious? Because I call out willful ignorance at every opportunity? I prefere to call it pointing out the facts and exposing those who try to supplant them with opinion. I will admit to being particularly intolerant of those who demand proof,then move the goal posts or ignore the evidence when it’s presented.

P.S. Are you denying FCA programs the ex brake to necessitate manual selection as a safety precaution? Once again I say, read your manual.

 

[Newsa]

Sounding foolish? Hmm. Lets see here. What happens when you touch the service brake when the truck has automatically ramped up on high idle to put the truck in gear? It cancels the high idle. Pretty impressive what simple programming can do isnt it? It's not rocket science. If they wanted the EB on a cold soaked engine ALONG WITH THE HIGH IDLE it would be a simple task to implement. Trucks in park, speed sensor 0, ECT/IAT below a certain threshold. The same parameters as the high idle. It's literally that simple. Comparing programming To turning a heater on or putting your truck in gear or inciting the EB would have to be on all the time under any other conditions is both foolish and childish.

You imply that the truck always knows when it's being put into gear. A g56 truck does not have a sensor that tells the PCM when it is being put into gear. And you suggest that the truck would have this "dummy" programming that the EB would automatically disengage when the service brake pedal is pushed? That would be confusing to the operator if the EB was on. And then without warning, it is suddenly off just because the service brake was applied. The programming you suggest would be very confusing and frustrating for the average operator..... (having the service brake turn off the EB). I think that Ram did OK by their customers by just simply informing their clients that the EB is useful for getting your engine warm quicker.

 

[CMB]

Following

 

[Newsa]

Did notice that the ebrake does engage when ambient temps are below 60 degrees F.

It (the engine) sounds like it did with original 2013 programming where the ebrake engaged on active regens.

The newer flashes stopped the ebrake from creating a load on the engine at idle and i was mocked on this forum for suggesting that the ebrake would be engaged on an active regen where the engine is idling. But it sounded the same as when the ebrake is engaged to warm the engine in cold weather. So they (engineers with programing ) were originally using the ebrake to create a load at idle for active regens in 2013.

They have since removed the ebrake from active regens...... Starting in 2014-2015. Oncei got my first set of reflashes, ebrake loading on active regens disappeared

 

[brillmtb]

I even think I have noticed that when I take off in the AM when its cold and hit the EB it wont even activate until the motor gets a little warm so there may be even more to the story. I coast down a hill each morning and it seems since we are in the 20's that this is what is happening. Will try again in the am