Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Value of "special" aircleaner ducting...

[Diesel Freak]

but a cowl hole makes you want to put a bullet in your skull after a few hours of driving!!!!!

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

but a cowl hole makes you want to put a bullet in your skull after a few hours of driving!!!!!

Perhaps!



But I really like your approach, and how well you have executed it - hope you are able to come up with reasonably accurate benefit readings on the ram effect at normal cruising speeds...

 

[Lsfarm]

More flawed logic

Gary, try this on your upcoming trip, when you are part way up a long grade, and the fan clutch engages, instantly pull over, leap from the cab and whip open the hood and take a look. This is as close to a 'scientific' [as you choose to view it] a reading as can be had with your testing equipment. Waiitng untill you get to the next pull off or rest area will give invalid data.



With the intercooler hot, the A/C running and the radiator creating enough heat to cause the fan clutch to kick in [roughly 200*] the air aft of the engine fan is around 190* or so. I have seen these temps with my laser thermometer. And this is after the fan clutch disengaged, so I'm not sure how hot it was when the fan clutch was still engaged.



I agree with this statement from you ::a decent low restriction air filter simply mounted underhood will very likely produce as good a benefit as those attempting to draw in additional outside air from the cowl area...



And I stated that I also have a similar system on my trucks. Probably cowl induction is overkill, but it IS based on sound priciples that you choose to discount or ignore since you don't want anything to oppose your opinion.



What I find fault with is that you are stating an opinion on only one piece self fullfilling data. You refuse to even give credit to the posts that state that there is [with no doubt!!] a high pressure area at the base of the windshield. And of course you demand someone else to come up with date to refute your very one sided opinion.



I agree that for most the hole in the cowl air filtration system is overkill, but if someone likes it, buys it and enjoys the noise then they are happy with it. I personally would sell or give away a cowl ducting system if it was given to me.



Lets see some data from your upcoming towing trip. I'm towing again in a few weeks, and if I can get the fan clutch to kick in [I doubt it here in Michigan] then I will do as I described above and use my laser thermometer to read the filter surface and the filter duct surface as well as the fan shroud and fan blades. I'm sure you will disregard my data. So maybe I won't bother. Maybe I need to get a meat thermometer like yours for matching data.



Maybe someone can do a Google search or post some aerodynamic data about cowl induction ???



Oh well back to the shop,



Greg L

 

[scotty1]

Allow me to introduce myself as the pioneer in firewall hacking and wise guyness.



Hi!



Reverse cowl induction or taking air from the bottom of the windshield nets a lot more then you think.



Its the best place to take air for trucks towing or BOMBed in order to maintain low exhaust gas temps. Wonder why that is? Gary, you figure it out.



As for the in cab noise increasing, that has been addressed with two different alternatives.



Sure glad I don't have some homebuilt hack job dryer vent hose aiming at my injector pump.



touche



Dieselfreak... good work. Its nice to see someone innovate and realize what the time and materials can add up to.



I will stick to the round intakes for a round filter as air [gases] flow better in a round environment.



Gary, your gases are flowing quite well. :-laf



Scotty

 

[I-6DZL]

Maybe I need to get a meat thermometer like yours for matching data.





LOL



Gary humor me here as i am thinking out loud. All you would need to make your unscientific readings more beleivable is a IAT (Intake air temp sensor) from any make of vehicle (12 bucks tops at the Zone) After you have selected the vehicle for the above mentioned IAT let me know i will get you ohms readings for given temperatures of the IAT. From there all is needed is a length of wire from the IAT to the inside of the truck. While the wires are hooked up outside connect your DVOM (Digit Volt Ohm Meter) or in your case prolly a AVOM (Analog... ... ... ) and just test the resistance on the given IAT.



Simple enough ?? Hope so...



Curtis

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"Lets see some data from your upcoming towing trip. I'm towing again in a few weeks, and if I can get the fan clutch to kick in [I doubt it here in Michigan] then I will do as I described above and use my laser thermometer to read the filter surface and the filter duct surface as well as the fan shroud and fan blades. I'm sure you will disregard my data. So maybe I won't bother. Maybe I need to get a meat thermometer like yours for matching data. "



Sure, no problem, and I had planned to do additional testing and post results, as I mentioned further up above.



"I agree with this statement from you ::a decent low restriction air filter simply mounted underhood will very likely produce as good a benefit as those attempting to draw in additional outside air from the cowl area... "



EXACTLY my point - I just tried to back it up with at least SOME supporting data!



THEN, Scotty pops in with:



"Reverse cowl induction or taking air from the bottom of the windshield nets a lot more then you think.



Its the best place to take air for trucks towing or BOMBed in order to maintain low exhaust gas temps. Wonder why that is? Gary, you figure it out. "



Really, under the circumstances, *I* shouldn't HAVE to "figure it out" - guys like you SELLING the cowl-induction systems SHOULD have already MADE the appropriate tests, and have test documentation readily available - do you?



"Sure glad I don't have some homebuilt hack job dryer vent hose aiming at my injector pump".



AH - a cheap shot in reference to another part of my underhood temperature testing as displayed in another thread - and all it is currently, IS a test - but in my own defense, I *AM* doing testing in an effort to determine improvements in various aspects of underhood cooling - and making whatever results I obtain available to others interested in doing the same - it sorta beats just sitting on the sidelines doing nothing more than trying to minimize and ridicule the efforts of others...



But yeah, I *can* understand your sensitivity on this subject...

 

[darkhorse]

Allow me to introduce myself as the pioneer in firewall hacking and wise guyness.



Hi!



Reverse cowl induction or taking air from the bottom of the windshield nets a lot more then you think.



Its the best place to take air for trucks towing or BOMBed in order to maintain low exhaust gas temps.

As for the in cab noise increasing, that has been addressed with two different alternatives.



Hey Scotty, what are the two alternatives?

 

[msperos]

Just thinking out load here but if there is no benefit from bringing air in from outside the engine compartment, Why do the factory air intakes tie into a port in the fender well I would think it is because there is a benefit to air from outside the engine compartment. Following this train of thought... we add big filters why? To provide a larger area for air to enter the motor, With less restriction Sooo if we have a known source of fresh air with a high pressure benefit would that not take our BHAF to the next level :-laf Now I happen to have just a BHAF because for the average vehicle I do not think I need the added benefit of additional fresh air, But if I had major mods like twins then maybe

 

[nps]

Just thinking out load here but if there is no benefit from bringing air in from outside the engine compartment, Why do the factory air intakes tie into a port in the fender well

That's too unscientifically scientific. Besides, the fact that there is a factory hole in your fender does not relieve you from the need (and obligation) to post data. :-laf

 

[scotty1]

Allow me to introduce myself as the pioneer in firewall hacking and wise guyness.



Hi!



Reverse cowl induction or taking air from the bottom of the windshield nets a lot more then you think.



Its the best place to take air for trucks towing or BOMBed in order to maintain low exhaust gas temps.

As for the in cab noise increasing, that has been addressed with two different alternatives.



Hey Scotty, what are the two alternatives?

One is to put the insulation over the hole when maximum egt reduction is not needed. Not a great fix but still a fix for some.



Two is to put a Turbo air Guide on. This one I have to admit I was skeptical of. then the reports starting coming in from people using them with the Scotty Air 2. I rode in a truck that had this combo and it really did lower the pitch and sound level.

I personally like the sound as many do. I also agree that the increased cab noise is an issue for others.



Hope this helps.



Scotty

 

[scotty1]

"Lets see some data from your upcoming towing trip. I'm towing again in a few weeks, and if I can get the fan clutch to kick in [I doubt it here in Michigan] then I will do as I described above and use my laser thermometer to read the filter surface and the filter duct surface as well as the fan shroud and fan blades. I'm sure you will disregard my data. So maybe I won't bother. Maybe I need to get a meat thermometer like yours for matching data. "



Sure, no problem, and I had planned to do additional testing and post results, as I mentioned further up above.



"I agree with this statement from you ::a decent low restriction air filter simply mounted underhood will very likely produce as good a benefit as those attempting to draw in additional outside air from the cowl area... "



EXACTLY my point - I just tried to back it up with at least SOME supporting data!



THEN, Scotty pops in with:



"Reverse cowl induction or taking air from the bottom of the windshield nets a lot more then you think.



Its the best place to take air for trucks towing or BOMBed in order to maintain low exhaust gas temps. Wonder why that is? Gary, you figure it out. "



Really, under the circumstances, *I* shouldn't HAVE to "figure it out" - guys like you SELLING the cowl-induction systems SHOULD have already MADE the appropriate tests, and have test documentation readily available - do you?



"Sure glad I don't have some homebuilt hack job dryer vent hose aiming at my injector pump".



AH - a cheap shot in reference to another part of my underhood temperature testing as displayed in another thread - and all it is currently, IS a test - but in my own defense, I *AM* doing testing in an effort to determine improvements in various aspects of underhood cooling - and making whatever results I obtain available to others interested in doing the same - it sorta beats just sitting on the sidelines doing nothing more than trying to minimize and ridicule the efforts of others...



But yeah, I *can* understand your sensitivity on this subject...

I've always said the results that I give are from real world use. Such as reduced Exhaust gas temperatures, faster spool up, quicker cooldown.

My air intake simply works and I have no technical jargon to post publicly on this. I have had several people conduct their own tests or use reference to tests and results of reverse cowl induction that concur that what I have designed does as I claim.



When someone starts a thread like this and uses such words as hacking [cheap shot]. I tend to look at what that relates to in their own efforts.

I do not see cutting a 4. 5" hole in the cowl with a holesaw as hacking.



Gary, this is 'your' thread. Have fun. You have a lot of time on your hands... some of what you post is good info.



Scotty

 

[msperos]

That's too unscientifically scientific. Besides, the fact that there is a factory hole in your fender does not relieve you from the need (and obligation) to post data.

I would think that the science has been done. You have bean counters deleting rear wheel well liners and underhood lights to save ten dollars a truck but they keep an air intake system that ties to outside air? Heck just slap an open element on it in the engine compartment and call it good. Bet they could save 20 bucks a truck. How many vehicles pull air straight from the engine compartment these days? I to look forward to seeing the results of Gary's tests but I think that the research has been done on this subject and thats why you no longer see open element air filters sitting in a hot engine compartment. Knock yourselfs out on researching this and debating it. Just my highly unscientific opinion.

 

[darkhorse]

One is to put the insulation over the hole when maximum egt reduction is not needed. Not a great fix but still a fix for some.



Two is to put a Turbo air Guide on. This one I have to admit I was skeptical of. then the reports starting coming in from people using them with the Scotty Air 2. I rode in a truck that had this combo and it really did lower the pitch and sound level.

I personally like the sound as many do. I also agree that the increased cab noise is an issue for others.



Hope this helps.



Scotty

It sure does. Scotty. Oh btw, the fat fuel lines did the trick like a charm.

 

[rweis]

Well, at least Gary is trying to gather data and report it to see if one particular configuration will or will not benefit. Now if more members gathered data and reported it we all could benefit.



Surely Gary is not the only one running the FRANTZ oil filter, but just about the only one reporting OA data.



Surely Gary is not the only one running the FRANTZ fuel filter, but just about the only one reporting data.



Surely Gary is not the only one with a VP44 and a infared temperature gun, but just about the only one reporting VP temp data.



Surely Gary is not the only one thinking of alternatives or trying better ways to keep the ISB running better, but just about the only one reporting xxxx.



Maybe he gets a little chaffed when he gathers data and reports it and then the landslide of nay sayers chime in. Well, ok, you take your idea, try it, gather data, report it, and we'll see how it goes with your idea.



"Garsh darn it" at least he is thinking and trying different ideas, and I for one support that concept. Yes I do run a Scotty II because I think Scotty is right, but I don't beat on Gary about it. He does not have to believe in what I think any more than I have to believe in what he thinks. Take a little of this, mix in a little of that, figuer out what is best for you, and leave the "road side bombs" to AL-Quida.



Bob Weis

 

[scotty1]

It sure does. Scotty. Oh btw, the fat fuel lines did the trick like a charm.

Thats great to hear, er read!



You did not even have any technical proof or data.



Scotty

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I've always said the results that I give are from real world use. Such as reduced Exhaust gas temperatures, faster spool up, quicker cooldown.

My air intake simply works and I have no technical jargon to post publicly on this. I have had several people conduct their own tests or use reference to tests and results of reverse cowl induction that concur that what I have designed does as I claim.



When someone starts a thread like this and uses such words as hacking [cheap shot]. I tend to look at what that relates to in their own efforts.

I do not see cutting a 4. 5" hole in the cowl with a holesaw as hacking.



Gary, this is 'your' thread. Have fun. You have a lot of time on your hands... some of what you post is good info.



Scotty

FIRST, and for the record, thanks for taking the time to respond - as originator of one of the type setups I am comparing my BHAF with, you are in a unique position to speak from greater experience and authority on the subject - I had hoped you might also have research data you could provide as well.



As to my terminolugy, and use of "hacking" - that wasn't particularly intended as a cheap shot, just a reasonably accurate description of what a lot of guys under that backyard shadetree end up doing, just as *I* did on my old '91 when I had to use a metal hole saw to install a Banks intercooler - perhaps a bit too "colorful" description for some, but maybe closer to home for others!



NO, it isn't "MY* thread - it's a backyard test/research thread for ALL members here - and yes, opposing viewpoints ARE encouraged, so we can ALL maybe learn something new and useful - just keep it clean, on topic, and if at all possible provide something to the mix over and above idle speculation and preconceived notions.



Contrary to suggestions, I had no such preconceived notions - I had simply read previous such tests, and since I was already under the hood anyway taking other temperature readings, figured to refute or verify those other test results in the process - it made/makes NO difference to me which way results go, and why SHOULD it?



I certainly have NOTHING to gain or lose from the results!



But for the record, I too saw a radical reduction in EGT's - about 200 degrees across the board - when I installed my BHAF as pictured in this thread - along with the same faster turbo spoolup and cool down - I suspect that will be pretty common when ANY significant improvement in air filtration is made, regardless of type.



I only hope to determine what additional benefits, if any are available from typical outside ducting - and hell, I may be muddying my own water, since I still use the factory fender air inlet to my BHAF - who knows what added benefit THAT is already providing?



ANYWAY, I *do* have a common, wired, inside/outside digital temperature setup here at the house - I'll look into installing that on the truck for a few around town and local runs - if it seems to work OK, and has enough temperature range to be useful, it will provide the added benefits on our up-coming RV trip for greater on-the-run accuracy that seem to be a hanging point for some here.



Later...

 

[darkhorse]

Thats great to hear, er read!



You did not even have any technical proof or data.



Scotty

I know what I saw on my fuel pressure gauge & it made me a believer. :-laf

 

[darkhorse]

Yes I do run a Scotty II because I think Scotty is right,

Bob Weis

Bob, what's your reaction to the turbine whine through the cowl hole?

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

OK, thanks to LSfarm for motivation to obtain improved temp data for futher tests - I have done as he suggested, and have installed a digital inside/outside thermometer on the truck - it is a real time instant reading job with -58 to 158 degree range.



But some of you critics are NOT going to like the results!



Here's the monitor section, displaying absolutely the WORSE upper temperature reading, engine fully warmed up from a 15 mile drive at the speed limit, sitting in the sun in my driveway with the engine at an idle with the A. C on - the LOWER reading is underhood temp - disregard the UPPER reading, that is the inside temp, but the sensor is right there in the sun next to the windshield - so reading higher than actual in-cab temp:



#ad




So what WAS the ambient outside temp?



#ad




Here's where the underhood sensor is mounted:



#ad




SO, what's not to like, if you are a true believer in the value of drawing in outside air to counter that nasty underhood, superheated stuff?



Simply this, the WORSE CASE down the road temperature differential registered was the *SAME 10 degrees* as displayed by my "meat thermometer" (actually, it is an air conditioning service thermometer - it just sounds more laughable and demeaning to describe it as a "meat thermometer"... ).



Fact is, depending on the state of the A/C and engine thermostat, the difference was frequently as low as *5* degrees!



Yeah, stopped or slow traffic raises temps somewhat, and heat soak when the engine is shut down goes even higher - but AS SOON AS the vehicle speed resumes anything above 25 MPH or so, underhood temp drops like a rock to that same 10 degrees temp differential!



NOW, I have absolutely NO illusions this latest test will in the slightest change the mind of ANY of the critics - their "opinion" is set in stone - and NO test I can do will change it. They will insist I wasn't driving fast/slow enough, have the sensor in the wrong place/position, or my truck's the wrong color - ANYTHING to deny the rather obvious and strengthening conclusion that typical and average down-the-road underhood temperature differentials are not NEARLY as high as they THOUGHT, or were led to believe they were!



SO, where do all those radical claimed power improvements with the ducted intake systems come from? If it isn't actual cooler air, well, damn, it must be that vast amount of pressurized air from the cowl area, right?



We'll see!



It's rather easy to install a water-column sensor down in the cowl area where the air intake mods usually drill that access hole, and get the ACTUAL down the road pressure buildup - and then we'll see how much pressure there REALLY is down there to "pressurize" the engine intake tract...



So, all you critics get your objections and preconceived notions ready, and line up for the NEXT round!



Actually, it will probably be a couple of weeks - we have company here all next week, and the week after that, we all take off for the Oregon coast for a week of RVing, but then... .



( yeah, yer right - I'm having WAYYYyy too much fun with this!)

 

[HeavyHauler]

Gary, frankly I don't see how that "test" proves any theory of yours. You have yet to get out and work your truck, under load, and report the temperatures. It has already been submitted that a 55 MPH cruise isn't going to yield much of a difference.



Let us know what the difference is when you get out there and really put a load on your truck. The only thing you're doing now is repeating what you've already claimed.