Violence Never Solves Anything ........

[John Berger]

nps, I agree...

this post and the Know Your Surroundings post got pretty convoluted which I believe is due to the substitution of implied thought over direct categorization by a specific word or words. For instance, I believe that I and others who posted were called ignorant. Now, if you go back and read the posts, I was never directly called ignorant, but the association was made based upon my point of view on the original topic starter. I didn't imagine this, it's really there. I think the single biggest problem we have as a society is our education system and the inculcation of political correctness towards our youth. The PC movement has mastered the usage of words to falsely characterize those who do not agree with them as something other than they are; e. g. fringe elements of the environmentalist movement classify those who are against their policies as advocates of polluted air and dirty drinking water. And the media reports this point of view as being in the majority. There are many other examples I could point out, but I'm sure you and any others who post in this particular forum know what they are. I've been on the wrong end of this a few times, with the last time being the worst because my kids were drug into a particularly ugly situation that I was the focal point of. Words mean things, and one of the lessons I learned and continously strive to improve upon is to be accurate and syntactically correct when I state my point of view. I find the best way to do this is to follow the KISS principle. The problem with that is that it tends to be simple and direct. I have learned that people, as a rule, do not like the direct approach. Why? I don't know, but I think it has to do with the skewering of sacred cows. I refuse to stand pat and allow others to categorize me as something that I am not because of perception or misunderstanding in phraseology. Sorry this is so long winded, but I felt that what you said gave me a perfect opening to explain why I responded as strongly as I did in that other post. I suppose I should follow my own advice to Crazy Horse and Chad: Never complain, never explain. Oh, well I guess the rules have to be broken once in awhile.

 

[nps]

Brian,



You're 100% correct. It is the village, the NY Post is a conservative balance with the NY Times, and it is written by a columnist, not a reporter.



Guess in my heart I just wish they would say "no I don't want to fight and if I have to learn the Taliban way, then that's OK. " Then I could at least understand their logic and respect their position.

 

[sonorakitch]

Hi NPS,



Well, I attend a University here in Arizona and I have been continually disheartened by the opinions expressed around here. This institution is not traditionally hell-bent liberal/flowerpower, but does have its share of ignorant doves wandering around.



Out on the University Mall, there is a giant sheetrock wall erected as a "Wall of Expression". While there are some very encouraging remarks by this ripe-for-fighting student body, most of the remarks are sickening. "Rethink Patriotism". "Bomb the real terrorists--Bush, Clinton, Bush, Reagan". "Now we know what it feels like to be in Hiroshima or Vietnam" "U$A deserves it"

You probably get my drift.



The unfortunate thing is that these comments are the overwhelming majority. Whether it is only because the ignorant are the vocal ones, I am not sure? I am sure that we are engroussed in a sad state, as you suggest.



This is one University student that will be happy to attend the festivities in the Near East.



~Chris

 

[Crazy Horse]

My comment is short to John, since I haven't been in this one. Don't take your own advice to me, we are part of the traditional American beliefs that have been alive since the beginning of this country. I know I will not be silenced, and won't go down quietly.

 

[John Berger]

Hey Crazy Horse

Bravo Zulu!!

 

[nps]

Chris,



Hoping you're right that the ignorant ones are more vocal. Hiroshima the one that wrote that comment doesn't have a clue.



So in AZ huh? Too cold in Huskerville?



Neil

 

[Big MAK]

Max340,



Taxes? I don't even recall mentioning taxes. But since you bring it up I THINK WE NEED A TAX CUT.



FACT: Cutting taxes has always increased federal revenue by stimulating the economy and increasing tax revenue! That's a fact max. So if you think we need more revenue to finance the war then you're pro tax cut huh max?



Me rest on my laurels? I work 60-80 hrs a week, go to school for a graduate degree atleast half time (full time this term in addition to those hrs, damn I'm tired and that's why I'm not online much anymore), and I pay more in taxes then most people earn in a year. That's hard work dude. I wasn't born with a silver spoon. I worked thru undergrad school stocking shelves and digging ditches (no kidding). I work for a living.



Judging by the length and frequency of your tirades it's abundantly obvious who's resting on their laurels around here.



Good Day.

 

[Big MAK]

Nvr Fnsh,



I don't recall saying anything about how you're willing to defend; peel pototoes, fix planes, whatever. The point is you're willing to stand up. Good for you.

 

[Crash_AF]

lemme get this straight...

Ok, I've been reading this thread and tried to follow it. Y'all agree that violence never solves anything but it sure makes you feel better. Our nation was founded on freedom to do whatever we wanted to. Yes, we whooped some @$$ to achieve this goal and have been doing it ever since. We have become the big kid on the block and y'all know that someone is going to try and knock us down judt for bragging rights. Yes, the protestors are out in force for every little conflict that the military engages in. Please remember that most of them are college kids who think they know better and have led sheltered lives. They know nothing about military life and they tend to forget those who gave them their freedoms. I'd like for them to meet up with a Marine DI with a major attitude and give them a reality check. As for some of the Christian pulpit pounding beggars... They have been forcing thir religion on others since it was created. They are hypocritical with their views and tend to forget that there are other religions out there that Christianity is based off of. GBW has the balls enough to condem the terrorist activities and actually do something about it. Bubba Clinton sure didn't. The military forces who were, are and will be called to serve in their nation's defense will pay a very high price. Let's hope that they are never treated like the Vietnam Vets were when they came back. My grandfather fought in WWII, my uncle did 2 tours in 'Nam, my dad was in the Air force for 25 years, my hubby is serving right now. I have a deep respect for these people and alnyone else who puts on a uniform to protect us all is some way. Yes, our world has turned very violent since the end of the Vietnam era, but we are finally taking a stand. The only problem is that we take a stand ONLY after something truely disasterous happens... Think about the Columbine HS massacre and the Holocaust. History will repeat itself if we let it. Remember that our nation is the greatest because we have the freedoms that so many people long for. I believe that it is inscribed on the tablet on the Statue of Liberty: "Give me your poor, your hungry, your huddled masses, ect. " That, Ladies and Gentlemen is what makes us great.



Sherry Hinson

 

[SteveH]

Boy oh Boy do we have some bleeding heart liberals coming out of the closet? Line up the nearly 7000 INNOCENT men, women, and children who were murdered and let the liberals pass by each one and explain to the families that maybe we shouldn't do whatever necessary to correct this ACT OF WAR on America. I'm sorry, but I'm not one of the feely-gooders that think we should give them another change. These fanatics teach their kids to hate Americans from the time they can talk.

Secondly, why is an illegal alien in the US afforded the rights of the US Constitution when it is Citizens of the US that the constitution is aimed at? At exactly what point in their illegal stay in the US do the illegal aliens gain all this power afforded by the constitution?

Nuke-em till they glow and then shoot-em at night!

Steve H

 

[Bill Lins]

Re: lemme get this straight...

Originally posted by Crash_AF

I'd like for them to meet up with a Marine DI with a major attitude and give them a reality check.

Sherry Hinson

Funny you should mention that. I received the following orders from

Sgt/Maj. Steigerwald (one of my old D. I. 's) on 9-13-01: "Nuke 'em 'til they glow, then use their a$$es for runway lights!"



My answer? "Aye aye, SIR!"



Semper Fi

 

[Max340]

Mark, in your long rant, you did mention taxes and a cut in those taxes.



Where did the info you call fact come from? It would be interesting to read.



The laurels I referred to (which I described clearly, but here it is again) were those where a person serves in the military then believes they deserve hero status simply for doing so. Last I checked, hero status went to those going beyond the call of duty. For the record, since I know many will forget to read all of what I say, I have many friends, and know of many more who have sereved. It is an honorable way to earn a living, and is generally thankless not only in the attitude taken by the populace, but in the pay given by the government. My point is this, it is just one more way in which the average american can earn a living, serve an essential purpose to the country overall, and support a family. To think it means a serviceman has any more right to credit, criticism, or honor than any other hardworking American is wrong.



Length and abundance of my tirades? Interesting, I haven't had time to think about posting in almost a week. So not only are you incorrect, but some others are probably happy to see me busy.

 

[Bill Lins]

Originally posted by Max340

My point is this, it is just one more way in which the average american can earn a living, serve an essential purpose to the country overall, and support a family. To think it means a serviceman has any more right to credit, criticism, or honor than any other hardworking American is wrong.

Max, you really stepped in it with this one.



The difference between those in the military (also law enforcement and the fire service) and "any other hard-working American" is that those who choose to serve knowingly and willingly put their lives on the line for their fellow citizens.



Before you jump in and answer this post, might I suggest you sit quietly in the dark with no distractions, and give some serious thought- both to what I posted and to your own attitude.

 

[Max340]

Ok Bill, how about EMT's that put their lives on the line dealing with many different hazards?



How about steel workers that deal with heavy industrial equipment that helped build this nation?



How about the "steel monkeys" that built the WTC?



Or how about the farmers that feed this nation, who by the surveys, year after year do what is statistically the most dangerous job in America?



And I guess the guys that work the high tension lines that feed electricity to this country aren't really in danger, are they?



I could probably go on detailing the dangerous jobs that people accept on a daily basis, and it would include the military.



But as I predicted, you misseed what I said. It takes someone going above and beyond the call of duty to be considered a hero. Simply being in the military isn't enough. Putting yourself in more danger than the job normally calls for is the key element. Normally, the military doesn't do this. Normally, most workers accept the given risk the job calls for. Sometimes, that risk goes higher.



As I said, simply serving in the military is nothing more risky than most physically demanding jobs in this country. When one puts his life on the line by whatever circumstance, then they get to claim bragging rights. This can happen in far more occupations than the military.



Don't like my attitude? Too bad. I will not choose to side with your opinion over the guys (and a few women as well) I have worked with, for, around, or simply had the priviledge to know, who go out each morning and work their backsides off. They come home sweating and dirty, tired as ever, and go back to do it again the next day. Among those occupations are steel workers, machinists, mechanics, railroad track workers, police officers, and yes, military enlistees.



Interesting note, NONE, yeah, NOT ONE of the guys I know who served or are serving think they are more of a hero than the people they worked to protect (or support) at home. In fact, they took pride in being the guys that made (make) it safe for the others to get something constructive done. All of the servicemen I know are humble beyond need, and tend to downplay their contribution, no matter how great. They all recognize that they served to support a system of rights that mean literally, ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL.



And yes, I read this a few times before I sent it. I still believe what my friends have said takes not only more guts, more humility, and more work to support, than anything I see on here claiming someone deserves better simply by serving in the military. Sad thing that keeps coming to mind is, honor and respect are earned by returning both with humility. I respect your opinion, I do not agree with it. I had enough respect for those on this board to tell why, instead of simply using a personal attack.



Flame away, do what ya gotta do.

 

[Chad Sheets]

how about EMT's, steel workers, "steel monkeys", farmers, guys that work the high tension lines

They help make up America... no doubt, but they rarely have to worry about being shot at repeatedly because of what they stand for, and they surely dont have that in their job descriptions list. Their primary job is not to go out fighting the bad guys day after day until either you or him is dead. That's the big difference. I am not venting this to you Max, or anyone else even though I used some of your examples. This is for everyone to think about regardless of what you have done in the past.



Its hard to talk about something you have not experienced and expect to be taken seriously. You can read all the books you want, take all the classes you want and spend countless hours in front of the History chnl soaking up all the military footage you can stomach. When the smoke clears, you still have not experienced it.



Its like they teach you in Dale Carnegie, if you haven't earned the right to talk about something, dont try to and expect people to listen and believe what you say. We have experienced civilian life and military life. We have earned the right to talk on both subjects with true emotions. Not everyone is that fortunate.



We all have important jobs as Americans, but to me, Chad Sheets, the hardest and most important job goes to the people who put a uniform on every day and know their job is to die, if necessary, for mission accomplishment. It doesn't matter if that mission is taking a chunk of sand and holding it, or crawling through a mine field poking and prodding the ground with a knife hoping you find the mine before it finds you. These guys involved with direct combat deserve to be put on a pedestal higher than the average guy. They have earned that privilege.

 

[Chad Sheets]

I posted this earlier. It sums things up pretty good for everyones sake. Its about our flag.



For those who want to light Old Glory on fire, stomp all over it, or

spit on it to make some sort of "statement", I say let them do it.

BUT UNDER ONE CONDITION:

They MUST get permission from three sponsors.





First, you need permission of a war veteran, perhaps a Marine who

fought at Iwo Jima for starters ... .



The American flag was raised over Mount Surabachi upon the bodies of

thousands of dead buddies. Each night spent on Iwo meant half of

everyone you knew would be dead tomorrow, a coin flip away from a

bloody end upon a patch of sand your mother couldn't find on a map.



Or maybe ask a Vietnam vet who spent years tortured in a small, filthy

cell unfit for a dog. Or a Korean War soldier who helped rescue half a

nation from Communism, or a Desert Storm warrior who repulsed a bloody

dictator from raping and pillaging an innocent country.



That flag represented your mother and father, your sister and brother,

your friends, neighbors, and everyone at home.



I wonder what they would say if someone asked them permission to burn

the American flag?



Next, you need a signature from an immigrant. Their brothers and sisters

may still languish in their native land, often under tyranny, poverty

and misery.

Or maybe they died on the way here, never to touch our shores. Some

have seen friends and family get tortured and murdered by their own

government for daring to do things we take for granted every day.



For those who risked everything simply for the chance to become an

American ... what kind of feelings do they have for the flag when they

Pledge Allegiance the first time?

Go to a naturalization ceremony and see for yourself, the tears of

pride, the thanks, the love and respect of this nation, as they finally

embrace the American flag as their own.

Ask one of them if it would be OK to tear up the flag.



Last, you should get the signature of a mother, not just any mother ... .

You need a mother of someone who gave their life for America. It doesn't

even have to be from a war. It could be a cop, or a fireman, maybe a

Secret Service or NSA Agent.

Then again, it could be a common foot soldier as well.

When that son or daughter is laid to rest, their family is given one

gift by the American people, an American flag.

Go on, I dare you, ask that mother to spit on her flag or burn it.



I wonder what the founding fathers thought of the American flag as they

drafted the Declaration of Independence? They knew this act would drag

young America into war with England, the greatest power on earth. They

also knew failure meant more than just a disappointment. I meant a noose

snugly stretched around their necks. But they needed a symbol, something

to inspire the new nation. Something to represent the seriousness, the

purpose and conviction that we held our new idea of individual freedom.

Something worth living for. Something worth dying for.



I wonder how they'd feel if someone asked them permission to toss their

flag in a mud puddle?



Away from family, away from the precious shores of home, in the face of

overwhelming odds and often in the face of death, the American flag

inspires those who believe in the American dream, the American promise,

the American vision ...



Americans who don't appreciate the flag don't appreciate this nation.

And those who appreciate this nation appreciate the American flag.

Those who fought, fought for that flag.

Those who died, died for that flag.

And those who love America, love that flag, and defend it.



So if you want to desecrate the American flag, before you spit on it or

before you burn it ... I have a simple request:



GET PERMISSION!

 

[Pit Bull]

I joined the USMC back in 1968 so I guess that shows how I feel. I think everyone in the USA has a right to say what they feel but they should back their words with their actions. My 20 year old nephew has strong feeling also. He thinks that we should kickass, when I asked him when he was going to join up and go kickass, he said he would never join the service ( this attitude is very disappointing) I call people like that ( CHICKEN HAWKS )

 

[Sled Puller]

I know what you are saying about the nephew, but you CAN help defend the Country without joining the services.



What are the actual percentages of the armed forces that are in combat compared to support?



Gene

 

[John Berger]

Nice try

Originally posted by Bill Lins





The difference between those in the military (also law enforcement and the fire service) and "any other hard-working American" is that those who choose to serve knowingly and willingly put their lives on the line for their fellow citizens.



Before you jump in and answer this post, might I suggest you sit quietly in the dark with no distractions, and give some serious thought- both to what I posted and to your own attitude.

Nice try Bill. It fell upon deaf ears and closed eyes. The things that Max alluded to were things that never crossed my mind in my 10 years of service in the Navy. During times of reflection while I was in the service I felt overwhelmed and awed at the committment I undertook and wondered whether I would be able to do a worthy job if called upon. I think that is how most service members would probably reflect upon their service. If you served Max, you should know that. If you did not serve, and I mean this politely, I would be careful on how you categorize those who have or are presently serving. But I probably missed your point again, huh?

 

[Papa Joe]

What a thread. Here are some independent statements.

The task before us is not simple, but rather it is very complex.

All of us serve the country with the dollar. Some more than others. Some less than that which the country serves to them.

Tools of support can be welders, syringes, tractors, or rifles. However, service with a weapon against another man who also has a weapon is unique to those individuals who provide that service.

Violence IS a useful tool. Unfortunately, terrorism is a tool as well.

God gave us certain inalienable rights, however since September 11 there are 6,000 special people who no longer enjoy those rights.

Peace had a chance. Peace deserves another chance. Fire some lethal shots, and notice how peaceful it becomes.

Evil minds do not rest. Terrorists are planning their next deeds as we speak.

All of you TDR members are good people. These challenging, argumentative, gentlemanly, conscientious posts attest to that.

We cannot finish until we start. If we do not finish, we will become finished.



I pray that we are more determined to eliminate them than they are to destroy you and me.



Papa Joe